Chinese Elm reconstruction via thread grafting.

[Striferitus]

Hell that was a great use of paint I gota give you that

[Gnome]

shaunhayward2000,

Sorry I missed your post in this thread until now.

OMG!! Thats like the scariest thing,.. it was like a stump when you chopped it?! How could you possibley know where it was going to start growing again,... if indeed it would?

The only location that I was sure of was the chop site. This species, along with Zelkova, responds well to this method. A callous forms at the perimeter of the cut and later new buds emerge directly from the callous. I got more than I needed so I was able to choose the two best ones. The lower shoots were less predictable but the thread grafting takes care of that.

Also,.. what did you do with the magority of the tree that you chopped off? did you use that as a clipping to plant a new tree with?

The branches that I removed were already woody and it was winter. I did try to root them but I had no luck with the hardwood cuttings. Semi-ripe cuttings taken during summer are much easier.

Can you also graft that bit of tree u chopped off on the stump somewhere or manipulate it to grown round the stump,.. or am I talking rubbish?

I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to. There are various methods of grafting that can be used. The thread grafting shown here is but one.

[url]https://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/propagation/grafting.html[/url]

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATApproachGraftingforBonsai.htm[/url]


Norm

[drzaiusx11]

Norm,

This thread has inspired me to try grafting, a technique I've always been too scared to try.

(I think I'm going try thread grafting some new roots on my fukien tea)

[Gnome]

drzaiusx11,

Have you seen these articles at Harry's site?

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATthreadgraftingroots.htm[/url]

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATApproachGraftingRoots.htm[/url]

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATNebari.html[/url]

Norm

[Gnome]

OK, last update for this year.

October 18th before pruning:
[url=https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmbeforecm5.jpg][img]https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3296/elmbeforecm5.th.jpg[/img][/url]

October 19th after pruning:
[url=https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmafterst8.jpg][img]https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2738/elmafterst8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The Elm grew rapidly this summer. The first and second primary branches grew to lengths of 18 and 14 inches respectively. These figures do not include the portion of the branches that are on the entry side of the trunk, so they were actually considerably longer. All of this growth occurred since the chop earlier this year.

The tree was pruned back in order to facilitate winter storage. I had intended to begin pinching for ramification next year but recently found this description of Elm development by Andy Rutledge.

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20050212201013/www.bonsaivillage.net/elmPinching.php[/url]

Unfortunately the pictures are no longer available but the point is still clear, at least one more year of unrestricted growth in order to further thicken the primary branches and leader.

BTW, the lower portion of the leader was cleared with an eye toward a future air layer, it should make a nice little formal upright or broom style tree.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

That tree has made some great progress, great work. I will be updating mine in a minute and it hasn't done too bad either.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome,

Don't you think you should let that leader grow out another year? It doesn't seem to be thick enough yet.

Also, if you layer at that height, there won't be much of the leader left. Don't you think you should layer a little bit higher?

Just some thoughts.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I did not intend to do anything with it this year, in fact nothing is set in stone. I may very well have other thoughts later. On a similar note I just read some interesting remarks Walter Pall made concerning allowing young branches to grow freely for a number of years in order to thicken them properly. This, along with the article by Andy Rutledge that I linked to earlier, convinces me of the importance of allowing unrestricted growth when developing new branches.

I am even considering moving this tree into a growing box rather than a shallower bonsai pot as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This tree requires re-potting this year as the soil is becoming slightly compacted over the three years since it was last re-potted. With the recent work the tree now requires a period of vigorous growth in order to develop properly.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

That makes sense. Its hard to see the thickness of the branches you've grafted. Is it in the plan to shape them with wire while they are still thin or is that also going to wait?

I really can see a great tree coming out of this. I can't wait to see the finished tree!

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

The branches are already too thick at their bases to impart much movement to them now. The idea is to grow them out until their bases reach the desired diameter and then cut them back hard. Any effort to create movement, taper or ramification will be postponed until this point is reached. I have at least one more season, and possibly more, of simply growing it out.

This will be my fifth year year with this tree and I now realize I wasted the first four. Well at least three of them, since it was too late to do any real work the first summer I owned it. This whole thing is a learning curve for me too.

I really can see a great tree coming out of this. I can't wait to see the finished tree!

Thanks, but this tree is a long way from the image I have in my minds eye.

Norm

[Gnome]

Tom,

Its hard to see the thickness of the branches you've grafted.

Here is a current, leafless, picture.
[url=https://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=threadgraftpg9.jpg][img]https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7197/threadgraftpg9.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thanks, thats better. But I don't see why they need to be grown out even more before work can be done. They seem to be the right thickness to start to me.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I suppose it is simply a matter of preference. I really think the primary branches will look better with a nice stout base.
[url=https://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sketchvc0.jpg][img]https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2720/sketchvc0.th.jpg[/img][/url]
Besides I'm not convinced the new branches are truly self-sufficient yet so another year of strong growth can't hurt.

Norm

[Gnome]

The Elm was re-potted a few days ago (March 11) I decided to take a step backward and use a growing box rather than a proper pot. If the date of the last re-pot is any indicator the tree could remain in this container for three seasons.
[url=https://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmub6.jpg][img]https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6472/elmub6.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

[Gnome]

Well things are not going as planned with this one. The first primary branch was not leafing out as it should have so I took action and tried to help it along by supplying water to the far end of the branch. This is a technique that I read about in relation to grafting Grape vines.
[url=https://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waterda3.jpg][img]https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6018/waterda3.th.jpg[/img][/url]
After a time it was apparent that all of the twigs were dried out and would not recover. I trimmed all of them off and took further action. I now have a makeshift humidity chamber surrounding the branch in hopes of aiding it in recovery. This picture was taken April, 24.
[url=https://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mossjw9.jpg][img]https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1833/mossjw9.th.jpg[/img][/url]
If it does not recover I'm not sure what action I will take.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

I would not give up hope just yet. I think it is just having a hard time getting water and nutrients through the point of the graft. If it does die, you can just remove the branch and it may sprout new buds at that point like it did before.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

No I'm not giving up yet. That's why I made that little chamber, it's filled with damp moss I collected. I'm hoping that if I keep the branch from drying out a few adventitious buds will develop.

Norm

[Kenshin14435]

the cream pot does look a bit big

Sorry but I got to agree on this one.

K5

[constantstaticx3]

The only reason he has it in this pot is so it has room to grow. I'm not him so I can't be 100% sure but this is by no means the final pot. During the stages of developing a tree, the roots need room for growth. This is why the tree is in the pot that its in. I do the same thing and so do countless others.

Tom

[Gnome]

Actually I purchased several pots that year online and when re-potting time arrived this one was the best fit at the time. Tom is correct though that a slightly over-sized pot can be beneficial during development. That is why I did not mind that it was aesthetically inappropriate.

This year I took a step backward and potted the tree in a broader but shallower container. I'm not sure what caused the loss of the branch. The bark around the lower graft never seemed to adhere to the graft. I am beginning to suspect that it was due to the over-sized hole I drilled to accommodate the newly budded shoot.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thats some bad news. I'd hope that theres a chance that when you remove the dead branch, buds might pop from the scar left behind.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I'd hope that theres a chance that when you remove the dead branch, buds might pop from the scar left behind.

That is my hope as well. In the past this tree has shown a strong tendency to bud at the location of previous scars. The only stumbling block will be trying to get the new branch to catch up with, and eventually overcome, the remaining one.

Thats some bad news.

I'm disappointed but it could be worse, the tree is still alive. I feel it is important to acknowledge our failures so that others here realize that such is part and parcel of bonsai.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

The only stumbling block will be trying to get the new branch to catch up with, and eventually overcome, the remaining one.

That shouldn't be a problem it will just take time. When the upper branches reach the desired thickness and you cut them back, you will just let the bottom one go. I don't think it will set you back too much.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

So how is it doing? Did the branch survive?


Tom

[chio88]

I so envy you. I really should get a bonzai for myself too. I didn't know that you need to be artistic too in growing them. It's a job well done! Hope I'll be able to grow one.

[IndorBonsai]

Finally finished reading all of this

I was wondering how the tree is doing now?

I ordered 2 starter chinese elm trees, so now I can get some experience growing them. One will live outside all year long and one inside.

This thread has been most helpful, I dident know these trees could be cut back so far.

Nice job Norm

[Gnome]

Jason,

I was wondering how the tree is doing now?

Unfortunately the past year has brought some setbacks for this tree. The first branch that never leafed out last year stayed that way and I cut it off. Everything seemed to going well with the second branch and by midsummer I felt I could sever it from the attachment point low on the trunk. By this time a full year had passed from the grafting work and the branch seemed secure but after I made the cut it only took a few days to realize that I had made a blunder. The branch soon turned brown, shrunk and became loose in the hole, it had never fused at all.

Now I am left with the leader and what was to be the back/third branch. The tree is healthy enough despite its annual bout of black spot fungus and I am hopeful that in the future I can still make a decent bonsai from this. I expect to get some buds from the scarred area of the two failed grafts. Chinese Elms back bud easily and are it is common to see new buds at old scar sites, so it is possible that I will still get branches at the location I wish.

This was my first attempt at thread grafting and although I am disappointed I think I learned a few things. They were obvious but sometimes it takes hands on experience to reinforce what, in hindsight, seems obvious later.

Norm

[IndorBonsai]

I really like the thread grafting idea, I could use it on a few of my trees.

I was wondering if removing about half the bark on the branch, where it passes through the trunk of the tree, might help it fuse better/faster. Kinda like air layering but instead of removing the bark all the way around the branch, just removing the bark on one side of the branch.