Chinese Elm reconstruction via thread grafting.

[constantstaticx3]

Thanks for the update, that looks great!! . Good luck with it and keep us posted on your progress .

Tom

[Geek]

Tom,

The Elm is responding nicely if a bit unpredictably. It has a strong tendency to throw new shoots at the locations of previous wounds. That is good for forming the new apex but all the lower branches are emerging from the locations of the branches I removed. Here's a picture.
[url=https://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmchopeo1.jpg][img]https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5483/elmchopeo1.th.jpg[/img][/url]
This was taken on the 21st of May. I have since thinned the apex to fewer branches with an eye toward choosing two as outlined above. The lower branches have been thinned as well to one at each site. I intend to allow them unrestricted growth with no pruning. This is required for the tree to remain healthy. By allowing the shoots to elongate I will also have the makings of some thread grafts. This is a new technique for me and will allow exact placement of the future primary branching.

Norm

This is a question asked in ignorance so bear with me as I want to learn. Why cant you keep cutting the buds of the lower trunk in an attempt to force it to grow the upper ones. Looking at you picture progression it looks like the little ones at the top cut haven't grown at all.

[constantstaticx3]

Well one of the things that creates a good looking bonsai is the taper of the trunk and its branches. If he were to cut the lower branches now then the upper branches would develope first and be thicker than the lower ones ruining the image. Plus he is nowhere near refining it yet so he is just letting it grow out for this year, I would assume, and decide which branches to keep and which to cut out this winter.

Although, it does seem that the trees vigor is fosused on those lower branches rather than the top, have you been rubbing some of the upper buds off or did they just take longer to develope?

Everything seems like its going fine to me but I'm still a little unclear of where you want the branches to be. I think your saying you don't want new branches to grow from where you removed the ones before. I looked back at your sketch and it seems that some of those buds are in the right place compared to your drawing. Please elaborate .


Tom

[Gnome]

Geek,

Why cant you keep cutting the buds of the lower trunk in an attempt to force it to grow the upper ones.

I could, in fact that is what I did last year when I grew the primary branches of the broom style Zelkova in my other thread. For this tree though I was hoping for branches in particular locations which I did not get. I need at least two long shoots that will not be pruned all season in order to try the thread graft I mentioned earlier. I will keep more than I need though in order to ensure the health of the tree, they can be removed later.

Looking at you picture progression it looks like the little ones at the top cut haven't grown at all.

Since a callous had to form first the top buds are a little behind the others, they are just getting started. I really only want two shoots at the apex anyway. One that will be the third (back) branch and one as the new leader.


Tom,

Although, it does seem that the trees vigor is fosused on those lower branches rather than the top, have you been rubbing some of the upper buds off or did they just take longer to develope?

In this picture I had not removed any shoots at all yet. Since then I have thinned the branches a bit. I removed some from the apex that were not located appropriately, I also thinned the lower shoots to one at each location. To answer your question, the top buds are just a little behind the others, it's still early in the season. In another month they should have grown out quite a bit.

I think your saying you don't want new branches to grow from where you removed the ones before.

That is correct, they were not located properly in the first place. The new shoots are indeed forming from the previous locations where they are unwanted but I need to keep at least a few.

I looked back at your sketch and it seems that some of those buds are in the right place compared to your drawing. Please elaborate

Perhaps the picture does not show it clearly but they are still not located properly. If you think of the letter S the branches should emerge from the outsides of the bends. As it was before , and still is for that matter, they are emerging from the front and back. I'll try to get another picture up in the near future.

Norm

[Gnome]

Tom,

Here are a couple of pics showing where I had hoped that new branches would emerge.

Primary branch:
[url=https://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmrightej3.jpg][img]https://img482.imageshack.us/img482/112/elmrightej3.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Secondary branch:
[url=https://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmleftbv5.jpg][img]https://img482.imageshack.us/img482/9492/elmleftbv5.th.jpg[/img][/url]
These picture were taken four days ago on June 04. Today I did two thread grafts, my first attempt.

[Gnome]

This picture shows the path of the hole for the second primary branch.
[url=https://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=holehy3.jpg][img]https://img475.imageshack.us/img475/6966/holehy3.th.jpg[/img][/url]


This one shows the branch threaded through the hole and temporarily pinned in place with a toothpick. The entry and exit points were later sealed. The buds in the axils of the leaves were already forming so although I removed the leaves I had to make the hole a bit larger than I would have liked.
[url=https://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=graftpl2.jpg][img]https://img186.imageshack.us/img186/128/graftpl2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Although I have only shown one graft I did two, located as indicated in my previous post. All that remains now is to leave the tree undisturbed until the branches swell enough to begin to fuse with the trunk.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thanks a lot Gnome, I can see where your going now.

With how fast it seems to be growing, I don't think it will take too long for those thread grafts to fuse.

How tall do you plan on making it? IMO, I would keep it small because of the strong trunk and root base. Looking good .


Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

How tall do you plan on making it? IMO, I would keep it small because of the strong trunk and root base.

If you look closely at the last picture you can see a vertical shoot that emerges from the callous that formed at the chop site. If the top of the tree were a clock face it is at about 8 O'clock. When the tree is rotated into the desired position it will be at 6 O'clock and should hide the chop well. As far as finished height, probably about one third again as tall as it is now. So only a few more inches I think.

Looking good

Thanks, This is my first attempt at thread grafting but it is supposed to be the most foolproof type of graft so I am optimistic.

Norm

[Gnome]

Here's a quick update on the Elm. For the first few weeks after the thread grafts I was very conservative in that I retained several branches that I knew had no place in the finished design. Today, convinced that the two grafted branches had not been damaged and were growing strongly, I removed all of the unwanted branches. I did this in order to accelerate the thickening, and therefore the healing, of the grafted branches. Here is the tree as it is today.

[url=https://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=celm1eo7.jpg][img]https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1433/celm1eo7.th.jpg[/img][/url]

In this photo I have digitally 'cleaned up' the tree, removing the visually distracting portions of the branches and also the cut-paste.

[url=https://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=celm2aq5.jpg][img]https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/200/celm2aq5.th.jpg[/img][/url]

This image finally begins to hint at the final form I envision for this tree. The branches will of course need to thicken considerably to heal and then thicken further to present an appropriate image. No further pruning is anticipated in the foreseeable future other than removing any unwanted buds that may form.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome,

Congrats on the success so far, it looks great!!

In the second pic it seems you cut off the thread grafts from their origin, did they really heal that quickly?

This is going to be a great little tree .

I need to update of mine, it is growing great but I found that some portions of the base are rotting. One old root was a big problem and was hard to remove. I'll update later when I get the chance.


Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Congrats on the success so far, it looks great!! This is going to be a great little tree .

Thanks I'm pleased with the results so far.

In the second pic it seems you cut off the thread grafts from their origin, did they really heal that quickly?

No they're not healed yet, I cheated.

In this photo I have digitally 'cleaned up' the tree, removing the visually distracting portions of the branches and also the cut-paste.

I removed them digitally to show the intended image better.

My research indicates that it is best to perform the grafts during mid-summer when the tree is actively growing. Similarly, it is suggested to remove the branch from the entry point during a period of active growth in order to ensure that the exiting branch makes the transition with less chance of failure. This will probably not happen until next summer.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

In this photo I have digitally 'cleaned up' the tree

Wow, was this in there originaly? If so, then I'm just blind as a bat. I read that tree times trying to figure out if you did it digitally or physically.

In any case it still looks great and keep up the good work .


Tom

[Gnome]

Here is an update, the picture was taken August 19. The thread grafts and the new leader have yet to be pruned and are getting pretty long. The diameter of the grafts are such that they are now firmly lodged in the holes. I doubt that they are truly self sufficient yet though. All of the foliage shown has developed since the chop earlier this year.

[url=https://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elm0819hi1.jpg][img]https://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2231/elm0819hi1.th.jpg[/img][/url]


Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Looks Great! Nice and healthy.

Tom

[shaunhayward2000]

OMG!! Thats like the scariest thing,.. it was like a stump when you chopped it?! How could you possibley know where it was going to start growing again,... if indeed it would?

Also,.. what did you do with the magority of the tree that you chopped off? did you use that as a clipping to plant a new tree with?

Can you also graft that bit of tree u chopped off on the stump somewhere or manipulate it to grown round the stump,.. or am I talking rubbish?

[Striferitus]

Hell that was a great use of paint I gota give you that

[Gnome]

shaunhayward2000,

Sorry I missed your post in this thread until now.

OMG!! Thats like the scariest thing,.. it was like a stump when you chopped it?! How could you possibley know where it was going to start growing again,... if indeed it would?

The only location that I was sure of was the chop site. This species, along with Zelkova, responds well to this method. A callous forms at the perimeter of the cut and later new buds emerge directly from the callous. I got more than I needed so I was able to choose the two best ones. The lower shoots were less predictable but the thread grafting takes care of that.

Also,.. what did you do with the magority of the tree that you chopped off? did you use that as a clipping to plant a new tree with?

The branches that I removed were already woody and it was winter. I did try to root them but I had no luck with the hardwood cuttings. Semi-ripe cuttings taken during summer are much easier.

Can you also graft that bit of tree u chopped off on the stump somewhere or manipulate it to grown round the stump,.. or am I talking rubbish?

I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to. There are various methods of grafting that can be used. The thread grafting shown here is but one.

[url]https://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/propagation/grafting.html[/url]

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATApproachGraftingforBonsai.htm[/url]


Norm

[drzaiusx11]

Norm,

This thread has inspired me to try grafting, a technique I've always been too scared to try.

(I think I'm going try thread grafting some new roots on my fukien tea)

[Gnome]

drzaiusx11,

Have you seen these articles at Harry's site?

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATthreadgraftingroots.htm[/url]

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATApproachGraftingRoots.htm[/url]

[url]https://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATNebari.html[/url]

Norm

[Gnome]

OK, last update for this year.

October 18th before pruning:
[url=https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmbeforecm5.jpg][img]https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3296/elmbeforecm5.th.jpg[/img][/url]

October 19th after pruning:
[url=https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmafterst8.jpg][img]https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2738/elmafterst8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The Elm grew rapidly this summer. The first and second primary branches grew to lengths of 18 and 14 inches respectively. These figures do not include the portion of the branches that are on the entry side of the trunk, so they were actually considerably longer. All of this growth occurred since the chop earlier this year.

The tree was pruned back in order to facilitate winter storage. I had intended to begin pinching for ramification next year but recently found this description of Elm development by Andy Rutledge.

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20050212201013/www.bonsaivillage.net/elmPinching.php[/url]

Unfortunately the pictures are no longer available but the point is still clear, at least one more year of unrestricted growth in order to further thicken the primary branches and leader.

BTW, the lower portion of the leader was cleared with an eye toward a future air layer, it should make a nice little formal upright or broom style tree.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

That tree has made some great progress, great work. I will be updating mine in a minute and it hasn't done too bad either.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Gnome,

Don't you think you should let that leader grow out another year? It doesn't seem to be thick enough yet.

Also, if you layer at that height, there won't be much of the leader left. Don't you think you should layer a little bit higher?

Just some thoughts.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I did not intend to do anything with it this year, in fact nothing is set in stone. I may very well have other thoughts later. On a similar note I just read some interesting remarks Walter Pall made concerning allowing young branches to grow freely for a number of years in order to thicken them properly. This, along with the article by Andy Rutledge that I linked to earlier, convinces me of the importance of allowing unrestricted growth when developing new branches.

I am even considering moving this tree into a growing box rather than a shallower bonsai pot as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This tree requires re-potting this year as the soil is becoming slightly compacted over the three years since it was last re-potted. With the recent work the tree now requires a period of vigorous growth in order to develop properly.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

That makes sense. Its hard to see the thickness of the branches you've grafted. Is it in the plan to shape them with wire while they are still thin or is that also going to wait?

I really can see a great tree coming out of this. I can't wait to see the finished tree!

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

The branches are already too thick at their bases to impart much movement to them now. The idea is to grow them out until their bases reach the desired diameter and then cut them back hard. Any effort to create movement, taper or ramification will be postponed until this point is reached. I have at least one more season, and possibly more, of simply growing it out.

This will be my fifth year year with this tree and I now realize I wasted the first four. Well at least three of them, since it was too late to do any real work the first summer I owned it. This whole thing is a learning curve for me too.

I really can see a great tree coming out of this. I can't wait to see the finished tree!

Thanks, but this tree is a long way from the image I have in my minds eye.

Norm

[Gnome]

Tom,

Its hard to see the thickness of the branches you've grafted.

Here is a current, leafless, picture.
[url=https://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=threadgraftpg9.jpg][img]https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7197/threadgraftpg9.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thanks, thats better. But I don't see why they need to be grown out even more before work can be done. They seem to be the right thickness to start to me.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I suppose it is simply a matter of preference. I really think the primary branches will look better with a nice stout base.
[url=https://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sketchvc0.jpg][img]https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2720/sketchvc0.th.jpg[/img][/url]
Besides I'm not convinced the new branches are truly self-sufficient yet so another year of strong growth can't hurt.

Norm

[Gnome]

The Elm was re-potted a few days ago (March 11) I decided to take a step backward and use a growing box rather than a proper pot. If the date of the last re-pot is any indicator the tree could remain in this container for three seasons.
[url=https://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elmub6.jpg][img]https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6472/elmub6.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

[Gnome]

Well things are not going as planned with this one. The first primary branch was not leafing out as it should have so I took action and tried to help it along by supplying water to the far end of the branch. This is a technique that I read about in relation to grafting Grape vines.
[url=https://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waterda3.jpg][img]https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6018/waterda3.th.jpg[/img][/url]
After a time it was apparent that all of the twigs were dried out and would not recover. I trimmed all of them off and took further action. I now have a makeshift humidity chamber surrounding the branch in hopes of aiding it in recovery. This picture was taken April, 24.
[url=https://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mossjw9.jpg][img]https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1833/mossjw9.th.jpg[/img][/url]
If it does not recover I'm not sure what action I will take.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

I would not give up hope just yet. I think it is just having a hard time getting water and nutrients through the point of the graft. If it does die, you can just remove the branch and it may sprout new buds at that point like it did before.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

No I'm not giving up yet. That's why I made that little chamber, it's filled with damp moss I collected. I'm hoping that if I keep the branch from drying out a few adventitious buds will develop.

Norm

[Kenshin14435]

the cream pot does look a bit big

Sorry but I got to agree on this one.

K5

[constantstaticx3]

The only reason he has it in this pot is so it has room to grow. I'm not him so I can't be 100% sure but this is by no means the final pot. During the stages of developing a tree, the roots need room for growth. This is why the tree is in the pot that its in. I do the same thing and so do countless others.

Tom

[Gnome]

Actually I purchased several pots that year online and when re-potting time arrived this one was the best fit at the time. Tom is correct though that a slightly over-sized pot can be beneficial during development. That is why I did not mind that it was aesthetically inappropriate.

This year I took a step backward and potted the tree in a broader but shallower container. I'm not sure what caused the loss of the branch. The bark around the lower graft never seemed to adhere to the graft. I am beginning to suspect that it was due to the over-sized hole I drilled to accommodate the newly budded shoot.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thats some bad news. I'd hope that theres a chance that when you remove the dead branch, buds might pop from the scar left behind.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I'd hope that theres a chance that when you remove the dead branch, buds might pop from the scar left behind.

That is my hope as well. In the past this tree has shown a strong tendency to bud at the location of previous scars. The only stumbling block will be trying to get the new branch to catch up with, and eventually overcome, the remaining one.

Thats some bad news.

I'm disappointed but it could be worse, the tree is still alive. I feel it is important to acknowledge our failures so that others here realize that such is part and parcel of bonsai.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

The only stumbling block will be trying to get the new branch to catch up with, and eventually overcome, the remaining one.

That shouldn't be a problem it will just take time. When the upper branches reach the desired thickness and you cut them back, you will just let the bottom one go. I don't think it will set you back too much.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

So how is it doing? Did the branch survive?


Tom

[chio88]

I so envy you. I really should get a bonzai for myself too. I didn't know that you need to be artistic too in growing them. It's a job well done! Hope I'll be able to grow one.