User avatar
TomatoNut95
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 11:11 am
Location: Texas Zone 8

Dry unused dirt?

So today I got the kick I needed to start planting the cold crops in packs. But I had an issue with the potting soil I was using. It was a newly opened bag of MG Performance Organics potting mix. Never used it until recently, I've had it for months, unopened in the house. The issue was this: when I watered the soil, the water went straight through the dirt and didn't absorb. The dirt stayed dry as dust! Would age cause MG soils to become less absorbent? Can I fix the soil to where it will absorb again?

pepperhead212
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2852
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:52 pm
Location: Woodbury NJ Zone 7a/7b

It's hard, at first, to wet really dry soil. I find it doesn't run through it, but rather off of it, maybe over it and through the space along the sides of the pots. So instead of packing dry soil mix in pots, mix it in a bucket, with whatever you are mixing (perlite, vermiculite, sand, worm castings, etc.), and add a generous amount of water (I also add some BT israelensis at this point, to prevent fungus gnats, if using indoors), and mix with your hands. Even if it isn't totally wet now, as long as you get it totally mixed in, it will now pack into the pots well, and the water should soak into it and run through, as long as there is enough perlite and/or sand, for drainage.

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 13962
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: Hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

Organic soil mixes don't have wetting agents so depending on what they are using peat moss, coir, forest products it can be hard to wet and it dries out faster. You can buy wetting agents separately or buy the regular MG potting mix or peat moss that is not OMRI listed which has been pH adjusted with lime and contains a wetting agent.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 30514
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)

Yep. always moisten potting mix before filling pots and seed flats.

I use warm - hot water (enough to steam) and container with secure lid — close and shake well then let rest for minimum 30 minutes to couple of hours before opening. Then, mix thoroughly and adjust moisture as necessary.

I’ve often thought about getting the cement mixing container - the kind you roll around on the ground? - though I haven’t yet.

I have to disagree about treating organic potting mix with wetting agents unless you want to use omri listed organic ones. Worm(s) in every pot will help with the drying out — the worms add mucus and microbes to the mix as they tunnel around and create soil environment that resists drying out and that support the resident plant from drying out even in extreme drought.

Vanisle_BC
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:02 pm
Location: Port Alberni, B.C. Canada, Zone 7 (+?)

I'm not familiar with the term OMRI - presumably some kind of endangered species list. I'm also unaware of peat moss that isn't on it. Please, members, enlighten me.

BTW I personally think our civilization is pretty much doomed anyway, and individual efforts to stave off disaster are noble but probably futile - but that's another subject. Meantime I'll keep trying to do my part.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 30514
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)

Yeah that’s a good point. I think there had been good efforts towards renewable peat alternatives/replacement ... then the global coronavirus pandemic hit. Just intuitively, disruptions in ordinary (what used to be taken for granted) global shipping, local sourcing/manufacturing/production/packaging, extra steps/overseeing (budget, staffing) to be more conservation-minded .... All of these at every level are threatened. It’s going to take concerted efforts to rebuild ... as as the more optimistic of us are saying — build back BETTER.

Vanisle_BC
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:02 pm
Location: Port Alberni, B.C. Canada, Zone 7 (+?)

Further thoughts on peat moss: How necessary is it, what problems does it solve? Can the effects we hope to achieve with it - soil consistency & water retention - not be had by other means - means that don't depend on depletion of irreplaceable resources, global shipping or general degradation & pollution of the environment? What did farmers & gardeners do before these 'advantages' were available?

Maybe our dependence on things like peat moss are just a reflection of our own love of simple personal convenience; laziness of a sort :-?

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 13962
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: Hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

OMRI = Is an organic certification label. It means they have certified that the product meets organic standards.
https://www.omri.org/
https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/FST-56.pdf
https://ota.com/sites/default/files/ind ... 20List.pdf
https://eorganic.org/node/3442

Most commercial wetting agents are not allowed in organic production. Sunshine #4 is an allowed soil mix because it does not contain wetting agents. Most peat moss sold in stores have been limed to adjust the pH and contain wetting agents. Wetting agents will be listed as an ingredient and you will not find an OMRI label on the product.

Some synthetics are allowed in organic crop production. Some have restricted use.
example iron phosphate = sluggo is allowed but only as a molluscocide. It is not allowed as a fertilizer, although it contains elements of fertilizer because it is a manufactured product.

Unless someone is in a business that needs organic certification, the technicalities don't really matter. The worse part of it is the politics. The NOSB board makes recommendations on rules for organic production, but its recommendations are not required to be accepted by law into the national organic standards.

For the average person, organic products are labeled with an OMRI label on the product. This means that the producer has applied and been accepted as being certified that they are using what iand allowed in organic ag production. Sometimes certification is lost due to some unscrupulous tactics. Fish emulsion briefly loss their OMRI certification when it was found that their product showed a higher nitrogen percentage. The fishmonger who supplied the fish to the company had been adding synthetic nitrogen fertilizer to the fish to boost the nitrogen content without telling the company they were doing that. It doubled the nitrogen percentage of the fish emulsion.

An organic label precludes anything GMO is not being used as a component in the source material. For animal production, it would also mean that they are feeding their animals non-gmo grain. This is important for some people.

Ordinary people really don't understand organic. They have been brainwashed a lot by the media. They can't tell the difference between organic, conventional, and GMO. Take seeds. No seeds sold in general retail stores are going to be GMO. Organic seeds will be labeled, but many people assume the non-organic conventional seeds are GMO. GMO seeds are usually sold to farmers and individuals who want them.

If you are purchasing compost or soil mixes sometimes there is an organic label, sometimes not. Not every business will apply for certification. The use of the term Organic on the label is covered by labeling laws so if it says organic, it should be certified and have the OMRI certification on it. Those products would not be allowed to have synthetic wetting agents. If they contain peat moss and bark and forest products, they are usually harder to wet. Composts don't contain perlite to improve aeration. They are not intended to be used solely as a planting mix. They are heavy, compact down, have a high pH, very low in available nitrogen, and stay wet way too long. Most composts are amendments, not fertilizer, and not in itself suitable as a sole planting mix.

There are alternatives to peat moss. Coir is harder to find and costs more even though it is a renewable resource. I actually, have used it but it does not work with everything. It is light, but when its wet, it is really wet and when it is dry it is really dry. I found it hard to keep it evenly moist although it does work for things that like to dry out between watering and they are not top heavy.

When peat moss was harder to get, companies started adding more compost and forest products (saw dust) to the planting mixes. Those mixes performed poorly. The plants did not do well.

For some things, I do use cinder as a potting mix. Cinder can be mixed with some peat moss or compost to hold more water. I does not contain nutrients so it has to be fed regularly.

Bark, leaf mold, rocks, and no media works well with epiphytes. They only need support, not soil.

Shell husks can be used as a media, but it is not always available.

I have had to get more creative since potting supplies are so intermittent now. I have to make choices on what need to be potted, how much soil I can re use and I have even had to change my mix to 60/40 peatlite because it has not rained much and it would allow some plants to go longer between watering. It will come back to bite me in the rainy season, when it gets here. I am also being forced to use smaller pots since I don't have enough soil to fill the bigger ones. I am recycling and using alternative pots since pots are also getting harder to find as well.

User avatar
TomatoNut95
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 11:11 am
Location: Texas Zone 8

Ugh. Thanks to the stinking gateway, I couldn't view my own thread from my tablet, had to switch to my phone.

I don't always purchase OMRI listed soils, however I do notice that the regular MG soils aren't OMRI listed which makes me wonder what's in it. I have had wishes of wanting to grow more naturally rather than in synthetic chemicals that must be in the regular MG.

The reason I was using the organic potting soil was just as a seed starter; I don't have any seed starting soil on hand. I wasn't mixing it with anything else I was just putting it directly into the packs just for the seeds to germinate in like I always do. Never mix it, never had to moisten it before using it.
I have worked with Burpee soils before and was much more pleased with them them than MG. It's just that MG soils are so popular and abundant around here, it's what I normally buy. I don't think I'll buy that organic dirt again; I'm not the only one who complains about MG stuff according to online reviews.
Also, I don't know what's so super duper about peat moss, IMO I think all it does is make your soil dry out quicker and turn hard. I've worked with coir before and I think it's nice. At least it's good for starting small seeds in since it doesn't have a bunch of sticks and bark in it.

Does anyone know what's in the regular MG soils causing it to not be natural and OMRI listed? A synthetic type of nitrogen?

Vanisle_BC
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:02 pm
Location: Port Alberni, B.C. Canada, Zone 7 (+?)

TomatoNut95 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:16 pm
At least it's good for starting small seeds in since it doesn't have a bunch of sticks and bark in it.
I know what you mean. For potting and especially soil blocks I fine-sift my peat moss. The sifted-out stiff goes in the compost pile. Some of THAT gets sifted when it's done, depending what I'm doing with it. But generally I don't mind putting a few small sticks & bark bits in the raised beds, to decompose in situ.

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 13962
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: Hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

If forest products work for you that's great. Home made compost is good for the garden as well and it costs much less than buying it in bags. I do agree that it really is a good idea to have media with different sized particles. It drains better and does not pack as hard as fast.

For me the forest products in commercial composts dry faster and the plants are smaller and struggle more. I have to use much more fertilizer and water more often and still the plants are not as big or healthy as the ones I have in peat lite.

User avatar
TomatoNut95
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 11:11 am
Location: Texas Zone 8

A giant sifter would be great! The sticks and bark pieces are mainly a problem when I start little seeds in the soil. I don't always have seed starting soil on hand, it's rather costly unless I catch it on sale. It kinda bugs me to pay 7 or 8 dollars for a bag of seed starter when I can get a much bigger bag of potting mix for more money.

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 13962
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: Hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

Lately here, getting soil of any kind is hit or miss.

User avatar
TomatoNut95
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 11:11 am
Location: Texas Zone 8

imafan26 wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:07 pm
Lately here, getting soil of any kind is hit or miss.
Same here. People must be sticking everything in pots or have bad ground soil like I do.

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 13962
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:32 am
Location: Hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

There are a lot of people who are new to gardening. They often rent and cannot put anything in the ground or they don't want to dig so they start with pots. They notoriously buy what is cheap. They buy a lot of garden soil for pots even though it says clearly on the front of the bag that it is for "in ground use only". People using that for potting soil are likely to be killing their plants in a short time.

User avatar
TomatoNut95
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 11:11 am
Location: Texas Zone 8

I like to buy what is cheap to, MG is expensive! What is the fertilize difference between potting soil and garden soil making it bad to put ground soil in pots?



Return to “Container Gardening Forum”