sagedavis
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Miracle Grow brand Potting mix, a couple of questions

Hey all. As you know, I am on my way to starting composting on my own, but, in the interim, I have been using Miracle grow potting mix.

It obviously has fertilizer in it, and says "grows plants up to twice as big".

This is all well and good until I get my compost together, and rebuild some of my terribly nutreant stripped yard.

Here are some issues that I have, and hopefully my questions can be answered.
1.) I want to be organic in my practice (not really trying to ge certified, it's just for personal use), is this mix organic? It doesn't say on the package, which leads me to believe that it is not.

2.) The plants I am potting require good drainage (such as rosemary for instance), is this mix allowing a good "drain" to happen?

The reason I ask about the drainage is because, I have noticed that, even though my pots have only this product in them, after a few waterings the mix seems "hard". I was getting rid of one of the plants that had burnt off, and when I flipped the pot upside down, the mix came out in one piece. I was at a full standing position, and it barely even broke the form of the mix.

I always assumed that you should try to have at least some "give" with this stuff. Should I be mixing some dry into it?

Would sand be recommended or something else?

I know where to get some sand, but, if you recommend something else, where can I find it?

Thanks in advance for any answers.
Sage

Newt
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Hi Sage,

I suppose a good place to start is with what 'potting soil' is made from. Most potting soils are peat moss mixed with some perlite.
1.) I want to be organic in my practice (not really trying to ge certified, it's just for personal use), is this mix organic? It doesn't say on the package, which leads me to believe that it is not.
No, it's not organic as it has synthetic fertilizer in it. Miracle Gro does make an organic potting soil, [url=https://www.miraclegro.com/index.cfm/event/ProductGuide.product/documentId/17bd42b914a93109d412861a09a95fa9]as seen here[/url].

2.) The plants I am potting require good drainage (such as rosemary for instance), is this mix allowing a good "drain" to happen?
The added perlite is what helps with the drainage.
I have noticed that, even though my pots have only this product in them, after a few waterings the mix seems "hard". ...when I flipped the pot upside down, the mix came out in one piece.
That is because peat moss is difficult to rewet once it dries out. That is why you will see the water sit on top of the 'soil' when you water if it has dried out. Once wet it tends to hold water.
I always assumed that you should try to have at least some "give" with this stuff. Should I be mixing some dry into it?
No
Would sand be recommended or something else?
Some people make their own mix of potting soil with equal parts peat moss, perlite and vermiculite. Some folks add chopped aged bark or other amendments like compost. It often depends on what you are growing as some plants like more air around their roots.

Newt

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Jess
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I don't know if it is available to you over there but I use an organic 'John Innes' compost in pots. It is loam based, not peat and works very well with Mediteranean type plants like rosemary that require free draining compost.
The other problem with Miracle grow is the strength of the nutrients added (as well as them not being organic). Most herbs will grow reasonably well in it but lose a lot of flavour and scent. They need to be grown with slow release type fertilisers ( blood, fish, bonemeal, your homemade compost etc) where a little of everything they need is available over a long period of time. This reduces the speed at which they grow so concentrating the flavour.
Just compare the taste of a bought "cut and chuck" herb with one you have grown yourself.

Newt
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Jess, John Innes products aren't available in the US. :(

Newt

sagedavis
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Thanks to both of you for your information here.

Jess....
I HAVE noticed that my Rosemary, Mint, and Lemon Balm, ALL, are rather "weak" in flavour.

Now, I know why. This is great information, and it gives me lots of hope for more wonderful tastes once I get my compost situation, well, situated.

So, the problem with the mirical grow is that I am letting it dry too much. This makes sense.

I have been experimenting with the way that I water. Rosemary doesn't like watering every day. It actually seems to grow better whenever I only water about 2 times a week. Which means of course, that since I have these plants outside in a spot that catches great morning sun, and great evening sun (shaded around noon - 3:00 pm), they do tend to dry out. Especially in the dry Texas wether.

Great information.. Thanks
Sage

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Jess
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I managed to find a recipe! :shock:

This is equivalent to a JI no. 3 which is used for general potting. Do not use for seeds or seedlings.

7 parts sterilized loam
3 parts peat
2 parts sand or grit
Fertilizer: 12 oz / 24 gallons (9 grams / liter)
Lime or chalk: 12/14 oz / 24 gallons ( 1.5 grams / liter)

sagedavis
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Jess,
Thanks.
I don't want to be a pest or anything BUT...
As you know, I'm a newbie to all of this, would you hold my hand a little?

Do I need to purchase Peat, or is there a way that you know of that I can "make" it myself?

I would assume that I will have to buy loam somewhere because, frankly, I don't know how I would get all of it's components, or, who's manure I should use. LOL.

Fertilizer... does the type matter? Peat is (I believe, but am not sure) generally considered a fertilizer, I assume this recepi is calling for organic matter such as what is made from the compost heap?

the last part that is confusing... I'm weird, I know
7 parts, 3 parts, 2 parts... then it goes to talking about oz of the last two items. I sort of understand the whole "parts" thing.... 7 of whatever unit you are using... so, if you are using lbs for instance, it would be 7 lbs, 3 lbs, 2 lbs.

How then do I figure out what "part" fertilizer and what "part" chalk to use, so that I can ensure that I am getting the right, or at least close to right, mixture?

Thanks again.
Sage

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Jess
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:lol: Ok holding hand......

Yes you would have to buy peat or if you want to be really enviromentally conscious then peat substitute.
Loam is soil. You could try and use soil from your garden but then you would have to sterilize it and it might contain too much clay or too much silt etc. Far easier to buy top soil by the bag. Go for a top quality product.

Peat is not nutritious and is usually acidic. It just helps hold water and stops the mixture 'caking'. (forming hard lumps). To get the right balance in your mix you would need to add fertilizer. This could be fish,blood and bone which will give you a well balanced fertilizer containing an NPK of approximately 6,6,6. Not the sign of the devil :twisted: but equal quantities of nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium.


The measurements are showing ratios for imperial or metric amounts. I still think in pounds and ounces but my kids think in metric so....
Fertilizer: 12 oz in 24 gallons of compost.......OR....... 9 grams of fertilizer for every litre of compost
Lime or chalk: 12/14 oz in 24 gallons of compost.....OR........ 1.5 grams of lime or chalk in every litre of compost.

Lime and or chalk are needed to keep a compost 'sweet'. This means on the alkaline side as most plants prefer alkaline conditions to grow in rather than acidic.

I think I have covered everything. :roll: Can I let go now? :D

Newt
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With no desrespect to Jess, as so much of his info is great, most plants actually prefer neutral to slightly acid soil.

Peat is peat moss and is harvested from peat bogs. It's highly acid and low in nutrients. It's sold in huge bags for use in the garden and isn't sterilized. It's used as a soil conditioner but there is great concern about the depletion of peat bogs. Potting soil that is made from peat moss is sterilized to kill insects and disease pathogens.
https://www.gardening.cornell.edu/factsheets/orgmatter/index.html#peat
https://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/facts/peat.htm
https://www.kew.org/ksheets/peat.html#help

Lime, aka chalk as it's called on the other side of the pond, is alkaline and is used to help bring the pH of the peat moss to more neutral. The pH is the measure of acid or alkalinity of the soil.

Most potting soil is peat moss mixed with something like perlite, a siliceous rock, to aid in drainage.
https://www.perlite.net/

This site gives some good info about growing herbs in the garden and in pots.
https://www.savvygardener.com/Features/herbs.html

Newt

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Sage,

I guess that I'll jump in here and throw a few thought out there for your consideration. First you should know that I am approaching this from the perspective of one who grows bonsai. When composing bonsai soil the watchwords are texture, drainage and aeration. All of these concepts apply to just about anything grown in containers in my opinion. I have abandoned conventional potting soil in favor of a coarse, free draining soiless mix and my plants love it.

For instance, last year I was having trouble with a large planting of Sansevieria. Despite careful watering I was experiencing rot at the base of the stalks. After a re-potting with a bonsai type mix the problem disappeared and all is well.

Without texture, oxygen is excluded and plant roots suffer. A fairly open and loose soil will require frequent watering. At first blush this might seem to be a disadvantage but the benefits far outweigh any inconvenience. Fresh water often also means fresh oxygen often, very important to plants in containers.

You asked about peat based soils, I avoid this like the plague. The texture is too fine, it retains too much water and as Newt mentioned it is difficult to re-wet once it has dried. There are always options of course. Avoid products that look like this:
[img]https://grow.ars-informatica.ca/images/peat_moss.jpg[/img]

In favor of a coarse product like this:
[img]https://progressivegardening.com/ProgressiveGardeningImages/PottedLFSphagnumMoss250.jpg[/img]
If the fibers are too long they can easily be chopped with shears.

Likewise sand, the texture is too fine and clogs the soil. Instead consider chicken grit:

[img]https://www.eurobiznet.eu/data/vendors/376/products/2858/image1.jpg[/img]

Avoid chicken grit that is composed of Oyster shell though.

Newt mentioned both bark and Perlite, both are good components in my opinion and are available anywhere. In fact a well known bonsai grower uses a 50/50 mix of the two.

[img]https://www.bark.uk.com/img/nursery_grade.jpg[/img]

[img]https://www.parksideorchids.com/images/Supplies/perlite.jpg[/img]

There are specialty components but the ones I mentioned above should not be too difficult to locate. The finished product should be so open that water goes through it as fast as in can be introduced. The bark or sphagnum moss retain enough moisture without being too compact and excluding oxygen. Obviously with a soil like this fertilization becomes very important, but that is another topic.

I realize that this is probably rather foreign to you and I am not trying to convince you of anything, just letting you know what I have learned about potted plants be they trees, succulents or herbs.

Norm

sagedavis
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WOW WOW WOW!!!!

This is why I love this group.
So quick to jump in and explain things, and Jess even holding my hand for a little while.

I would prefer watering mor often, actually, so, a nice loose soil might not be a bad idea.

The idea is not really to be container gardening forever. I have lots of land. Problem is, I started working with this stuff sort of late in the season, and just wanted to get a good feel for how to do everything before I put in beds.

Of course, the beds are mostly going to be raised beds anyway... so, technically, they will be contained.

I gotta come up with a good layout and everything and what I want where, and so on.

Next year spaghetti squash is on the menu big time, I've been buying in the stores and LOVE it. LOL.

Thanks again guys... As I start doing everything I will take pics and keep a journal so that I can share the experience with everyone.

I'm just glad I didn't put any of this mirical grow in the grownd anywhere, now that I know it's not organic... Talk about faux pas.
LOL

Thanks again
Sage

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Jess
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Newt wrote:With no desrespect to Jess, as so much of his info is great,Actually I'm a girl :D most plants actually prefer neutral to slightly acid soil. I meant to say herbs not plants :oops: (teach me for posting when I am tired!) Most of them prefer a ph of 7 or above. (Rosemary grows quite happily up to ph 8.5) The woody ones will be more stunted in their growth but it concentrates the flavour and scent. I have a rosemary bush that is 10 years old now that is growing in almost solid chalk. It smells amazing, tastes good too!
Peat is peat moss and is harvested from peat bogs. It's highly acid and low in nutrients. It's sold in huge bags for use in the garden and isn't sterilized. It doesn't need to be it is sterile. It's used as a soil conditioner but there is great concern about the depletion of peat bogs. I did suggest using a peat substitute. I never touch the stuff. :D Potting soil that is made from peat moss is sterilized to kill insects and disease pathogens.
https://www.gardening.cornell.edu/factsheets/orgmatter/index.html#peat
https://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/facts/peat.htm
https://www.kew.org/ksheets/peat.html#help

Lime, aka chalk as it's called on the other side of the pond, is alkaline and is used to help bring the pH of the peat moss to more neutral. The pH is the measure of acid or alkalinity of the soil.

Most potting soil is peat moss mixed with something like perlite, a siliceous rock, to aid in drainage.
https://www.perlite.net/ I tend to avoid the use of perlite preferring a mix of grit and sand as the extraction and processing of perlite uses a lot of energy (it needs to be heated to 1000C!) Not very planet friendly. :roll:
This site gives some good info about growing herbs in the garden and in pots.
https://www.savvygardener.com/Features/herbs.html

Newt

Newt
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Newt wrote:With no desrespect to Jess, as so much of his info is great,
Jess wrote:Actually I'm a girl :D
Jess, I'm so sorry. Please accept my apology! :oops:
Newt wrote:most plants actually prefer neutral to slightly acid soil.
I meant to say herbs not plants :oops: (teach me for posting when I am tired!) Most of them prefer a ph of 7 or above. (Rosemary grows quite happily up to ph 8.5) The woody ones will be more stunted in their growth but it concentrates the flavour and scent. I have a rosemary bush that is 10 years old now that is growing in almost solid chalk. It smells amazing, tastes good too!

This site lists the pH preferences of many veggies and herbs. Most herbs tolerate a wide range from acid to alkaline.
https://homeharvest.com/vegeherbphphpreference.htm

Using a leaner soil and going easy on fertilizers will help to add flavor to your herbs.
Newt wrote:Peat is peat moss and is harvested from peat bogs. It's highly acid and low in nutrients. It's sold in huge bags for use in the garden and isn't sterilized.
It doesn't need to be it is sterile.

This should clarify what is and isn't 'sterile' from this site from The Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss Association.
https://www.peatmoss.com/pm-efaq.php
What is Sportrichosis and does it come from Sphagnum peat moss or Sphagnum moss?

You may have read about a fungal disease call Cutaneous Sporotrichosis, a chronic infection identified by skin lesions. The fungus which causes this disease has been found in several kinds of organic material and, because in extremely rare cases this disease can cause death, gardeners are rightfully concerned about protecting themselves from contracting it. Unfortunately, however, some of the information circulating about how gardeners can contract this disease has been inaccurate. It confuses two separate products; one of which is known to carry the fungus and one of which does not.

One of the materials know to carry the sporotrichosis fungus is sphagnum moss. This product is frequently being confused with sphagnum peat moss, a soil conditioner used by gardeners. The difference is an important one. While there have been cases of sporotrichosis resulting from handling sphagnum moss, There have been no cases as a result of handling sphagnum peat moss. Sphagnum moss and sphagnum peat moss are not the same product, as many avid gardeners know.

Sphagnum moss is the living moss that grows on top of a sphagnum bog. The fungus sporotrichum schenckii is known to live in this growing moss.

Sphagnum peat moss is the dead material that accumulates as new live material grows on top and exerts pressure on the peat moss below. The fungus is not known to live in the levels of a sphagnum bog where peat forms. Harvesters of horticultural peat moss remove the top few inches of the live sphagnum moss and only harvest the peat from he lower layer.

“Livingâ€

sagedavis
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Phewww, Jess is a girl, thank God.
After all of that "hand holding", and in public no less :-)

All this info is great by the way, I am going through and trying to take the advice that I can.

I did a web search and found out that there is an organic nursery close by here, that I never knew about. Maybe going and looking around will help me to visualize some things enough to get a good idea of what I'm doing.

Fantastic stuff though. You all rock.



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