Talk to me about Lighting

[smellykitty]

Hi! I'm new!

And new to gardening. I decided I wanted to grow some veggies for yummy eating, but I also live in a tiny apartment. The porch is already crowded with random not edible plants, so my only space is inside

my biggest problem is lightning, I don't think I can find a good sunny spot

for my first set of container greenies, I want to grow carrots, chinese cabbage, spinach and chives. what kind of artificial lighting will I need? is it affordable? will it get hot? the only space I have is in the living room, and I'm in texas, I really don't need to add to the summer heat

thanks!

[rainbowgardener]

Just a regular shop light fixture with fluorescent tubes will do fine. They are pretty energy efficient (not as much as LEDs, but LEDs are very expensive and fluorescents are cheap) and they are cool.

Here's a thread where I posted pix of how I start seeds indoors under lights. You do want to be able to hang the lights pretty close over your plants.

Oh and WELCOME! to the forum... hope you find it friendly and helpful.

[djlen]

I agree that a 4' shop light is your best choice and would be adequate for veggies.
I'm left wondering whether you intend to actually grow them indoors or you just want to germinate the seeds inside and then plant outside. Hopefully the ladder. I cannot imagine growing carrots especially indoors. You would need a 9 or 10" worth of medium to grow carrots inside.

What exactly is the plan?

[Hydrogardener]

If you serious about growing indoors you might look at the advantages of UFO LEDs. If you shop around you can get one for less than $150. They last ten years under constant use, they run cool, are energy efficient, cover 9 square feet at a height of 3 feet, and produce great results. If you amortize $150 over ten years, the light will cost you $15 a year.

On my blog the post of 11/10/09 shows lettuce grown under an LED system. The plants took three weeks to mature from seedling stage! You will NEVER achieve results like that with a 4' shop light. You will most likely get slow growth and wimpy plants. Been there, done that. Good luck.

[JasonsIndoorGuide]

I hate to disagree with the good folks here, but plants require much more light to produce fruits and flowers than they need to produce leaves and stems.

Your veggies are typical garden plants that enjoy full sun. The first few weeks they will do fine under fluorescent light as they grow vegetatively (developing stems, leaves, and a root system), however, they will require much more light to produce veggies well.

The only exception would be the spinich (and any lettuce you grow). These items produce edible leaves in the vegetative stage, and therefore may do just fine under the limited amount of light produced by a fluorescent fixture. If you do the math, standard fluorescent lights will only provide 10-20 watts per sq.ft.. For good veggie production, you need at least 30 watts/sq.ft., and preferably 40.

To produce other veggies, you could supplement the fluorescent with a couple hours of sun (if at all possible). Otherwise you will need either very high output fluorescent lights (like the T-5's or TEK lights) or else HID lights (like metal halide or high pressure sodium)

To be sure, the T5 fluorescent lights will produce less heat than the HID lights......either way, the lighting fixtures are a little bit pricey.

[Hydrogardener]

I have been growing indoors for years. Tomatoes, cucumbers, strawberries, chard, beets, flowers, herbs, whatever. LEDs are the way to go. HPS are too hot and cost too much to operate. At least, that is my opinion. Anything you can grow with HPS you can grow with LEDs.

[img]https://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp121/hydrogardener/12310.jpg[/img]

[serial_killer]

I can think of one thing especially that the yield under LED doesnt hold a candle to HID. (pun intended) Not saying LED isnt good, the benefits are there yes, but in final yield of one specific, very light demanding unmentionable, there have been repeated tests under all different styles of lighting, and HPS wins every time.

LED and Flouro just don't have the power to penetrate deep into the canopy like HID's.

Your plants look great under the LED, but before you go around saying LED is the end all to grow lights, no high power use and all the yield, why not do a truly scientific test? First choose a plant that requires high levels of light, then get 2 identical setups and treat the plants exactly the same, start with cuttings from the same plant you you can rule out genetics, then grow one under LED and one under HID and I 100% guarantee the HID will produce more in the end.

Is LED sufficient? Yes. Is there something that will produce more end product? Yes.

[resolutejc]

I totally agree with the light experts, Jason and serial. Please follow their advice. Use T5's at the very least or HPS/MH units if you have the cash. Though these units give off much heat, which can be beneficial for tropical plants or large indoor rooms like the basement where you don't mind the rise in temps. If you want to avoid the heat, get a couple T5's and position them in a way that your plants get light from all angles. Avoid LEDs, shoplight fluorescents and incandescents.

I have found that there are only a handful of grower's on this website that focus on 100% indoor methods. If you are truly one of us, you will need to do a little bit of your own research about these lights on multiple websites.

[rainbowgardener]

I agree that most of us here are not doing totally indoor gardening. Many of us start seeds indoors for later transplant, but that is indeed not the same as growing a plant to maturity and fruition indoors.

If you want to find more information about that, check out the hydroponics section here. That is people who are doing soil-less growing indoors. Their growing medium is different, but I expect their lighting requirements are quite similar.

As some people have already noted, growing lettuce, spinach and other green leafies will be a lot easier indoors than other things you might grow, including the carrots. and could be done with a pretty easy set up.

Check out [url=https://www.aerogardenstore.com]AeroGarden[/url] for a pretty affordable small scale self-contained indoor hydroponics system for growing lettuce and greens in your kitchen. I have one that I love that is currently doing a great job growing basil, chives and thyme in my kitchen.

Otherwise do some thinking about how much investment you are willing to make in this. Here's a pretty nice little article about lighting options:

https://www.progressivegardening.com/plantgrowinglights.html

Incidentally re the question of heat given off, heating up your living room, MH & HPS lights do give off a lot of heat. LED lights do not, nor do the basic fluorescents.

[rainbowgardener]

Please, I said all that. The AeroGarden is small scale, self contained. It will grow spinach and lettuce which the OP said they wanted to do. It is relatively cheap, occupies very little footprint and is super easy. I just threw it out there as another option. AeroGarden actually makes bigger versions which they claim will grow indoor tomatoes and peppers, but I have no personal experience of those and make no claims for them myself.

I said I understand that hydroponics is different from regular indoor gardening. You clearly do not have to do hydroponics do do regular indoor gardening. But the lighting requirements will be quite similar, so if you want to find someone here on the forum who is doing similar things with lighting that would be the place to find them.

I'm agreeing!!

[applestar]

I just wanted to offer one other suggestion in case you might be interested. A couple of families I know have similar situation to yours -- no suitable property for growing vegetables. One of them rents a plot in a local Community Garden every spring~fall growing season (if you're from UK, I believe they're called "Allotments"), and the other have worked out a deal with a neighboring private farm to help with the chores in the garden in exchange for some harvest. There are commercial farms that do the same thing -- they're called CSA's or Community Supported Agriculture. The way that works is that you "buy" a share either in the form of monetary compensation or work. If you choose to go this route, look around quickly because they sell out fast and it may be getting late.

Something to consider?

Growing plants indoors is always fun. I don't think I've EVER been without some kind of indoor plants since I was a teenager (and believe me that's a long time ). If you haven't had much experience growing plants (not sure if that's the case since you say you already have a lot of plants on your porch), I would recommend you start with easier veggies, and, especially, faster maturing ones. So, out of your list: carrots, Chinese cabbage, spinach and chives, I'd guess spinach and chives are pretty good ones, but I have to say carrots may not be. Don't want to be a naysayer, but Chinese cabbage gets rather big, have you considered that? As for Spinach, theoretically, it should be fine for growing indoors, but I have to admit I'm still having trouble with them. They just don't want to grow for me, indoors or out (but that might be entirely *my* problem -- wish me success this year because I'm trying again! )

While keeping in mind that hydroponic results seem to be different/earlier, spinach leaves can be harvested in 40-65 days. Chives are relatively easy to grow and keep. Some other easy and early veggies that you may want to consider are: Radish -- 28~30 days, Asian greens (rather than Chinese cabbage) 40-65 days, Lettuce and other Mesclun 45~60 days or as baby greens 20~30 days. Based on last winters experiment, some early maturing Bush Beans and Peas are also relatively easy and don't need as much light as some of the other light hungry veggies. Carrots is one of them and the fastest still take about 60 days to mature under ideal conditions. If you still want to try growing them, be sure to choose the shortest ones -- under 4". I'm currently growing "Tonda di Parigi" (Round of Paris) -- round carrots that can be harvested at about radish size to golf ball size -- that were a hit with my kids last year.

[cynthia_h]

With regard to the OP's request and also rainbow's suggested article...

I read the *entire* article. Much vocabulary practice! But I found, near the end, perhaps the most important piece of safety advice for gardeners who are new with regard to indoor lighting systems beyond those needed for seed starting:

"Underwriters Laboratories (UL) thoroughly tests many indoor lighting systems for safety. A UL Listing for a lighting system is only valid when the entire manufactured system is submitted for testing and safety approvals and is sold as a complete light system.

"Beware of no-brand and do-it-yourself lighting kits. Paying a few dollars more for a system that meets the high standards of safety set by Underwriters Laboratories could save that amount many times over should a shoddily manufactured lighting system cause a fire in your house." (from https://www.progressivegardening.com/plantgrowinglights.html , originally referenced by Rainbowgardener--thank you! )

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[cynthia_h]

Just went back and looked at the Aerogardener. Here's a word I don't often use, because it's usually the kiss of death: it's...cute.

But I'm on an anti-stuff-on-the-kitchen-counters-campaign, of the long-term slow and steady change habits sort (mired in crud, they are). Too bad, because this Aerogardener looks really...cute!

Basil might last a few more weeks? months? in the kitchen than it does outside. I really miss basil when it goes away...I can live without most of the other transient fresh herbs, but basil is without peer. And, of course, from August through December, when I would otherwise have been making pesto to freeze in ice-cube trays, I was working full-time and then some in San Francisco, so no time. (But Lord! I needed the work!)

What is the growing medium for this cute little guy? The ad copy--heaven help us--says "aeroponic" something or other. Maybe the instruction booklet has more information?

Let's say I'm a definite future customer. On those surveys they're always taking...I'd be looking at a 12- to 24-month purchasing window. So giving me info off the instruction booklet (if you feel hesitant about publicizing it to the forum, please PM me anything the company has restrictions on) is more in the nature of confirming my wishes to acquire this little beauty. Silver, probably, since they don't seem to offer it in almond. (The kitchen was like this when I purchased the house; I really don't care about the kitchen color, so long as it's clean.)

Cynthia

[emerald7]

Hi! I live in Texas and have a similar thing like you do... The only suitable place I can garden is indoors with lights. I am just getting started in the next couple of weeks, so I don't have any results yet to tell you about, but here is what I'm doing:

I'm mostly growing various herbs and a few flowers (they are all 'full sun' or 'full sun to partial shade').

I have a ceiling light bulb fixture for one light bulb in the room where I'm putting my plants (I have normal-height ceilings, not vaulted or anything). So I got a 105-watt compact fluorescent lightbulb that is 'daylight' full spectrum (equivalent to 400 watts of incandescent light), 6500 K, and I'm planning to put all the plants close around this light (all the plants will be within a 4-foot radius of the light). I'll turn the light on for 8+ hours every day, always turning it off at sunset. I haven't decided if I want to do 10 hours or more hours of light yet, but 8 hours is what I have planned to do.

My dining room table is directly under the light, so I plan to let all the plants take their turn directly under the light as well. It would be interesting to compare notes since we have a similar setup.

[emerald7]

I think I am going to try for 12 hrs a day of light, since it seems that indoor plants need more light if they're solely being grown off of artificial lighting.

I don't know anything about LED or halide grow lights, but I have read up a lot about fluorescents. If you use fluorescents, you want to use a lightbulb that approximates real daylight as much as possible (full spectrum). Full spectrum lights have different kelvin ratings, and real daylight is supposedly in the 5000-7000 K range (some sources say 5500-6500). Different numbers on the kelvin scale have a different 'color' of light, and the different colors do different things. For example, a 6500 K light, which is what I have, is supposedly a 'bluish' light, and is good for green leaves and foliage growth. I am growing herbs, so it sounded appropriate to me. I believe flowers and vegetables need different 'colors' of light... 3000 K would be in the 'warm' color range.

I don't know that much about the light colors, but it might be good to research that, what is best for vegetables or what you are specifically growing. And then you can choose what lights you want.

[Hydrogardener]

"Your plants look great under the LED, but before you go around saying LED is the end all to grow lights, no high power use and all the yield, why not do a truly scientific test? First choose a plant that requires high levels of light, then get 2 identical setups and treat the plants exactly the same, start with cuttings from the same plant you you can rule out genetics, then grow one under LED and one under HID and I 100% guarantee the HID will produce more in the end. "

I really have no interest in purchasing a HID to test, they are simply too costly to operate, not to even consider bulb replacement. I have never tried to grow the unmentionable, however, to date I have not found anything I could not grow including flowering plants. These were grown in the same system as the lettuce.

[img]https://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp121/hydrogardener/214.jpg[/img]

[cynthia_h]

Great-looking zinnias! And...gerberas?

I would never have expected that zinnias could be grown indoors. In a greenhouse, yes, but indoors--never occurred to me.

What a bright spot for everyone dealing with so much snooooow this year.

Cynthia

[gixxerific]

Just so you know I have radishes fruiting under my cheapo florescent.

I was told it COULDN'T happen.

[IndoorGardener]

So what you are saying is that onions, potatoes, garlic, carrots, turnips, etc don't need light than.

I was wrong about them requiring more dark. But what I meant was that even though they may prefer full sun, radishes will sprout just fine with partial shade and/or low light. On the other hand, if you try to fruit chile peppers with your current amount of T12's, it most likely will not work.

Radishes are quite hardy. They have the distinction of being one of the fastest developing vegetables. In just six to eight weeks from sowing, the first radishes can be eaten.

[gixxerific]

Which is good cause I'm not trying to fruit anything (other than radishes) because I prefer to grow outdoors. but to each his own.

Actually I know all this, I'm just sick of all the bickering over you have to have "This" light to do anything at all. 90%+ of the people on here don't grow to fruition so we don't need $300 - $1000 dollar lighting systems. Some may but most don't. There I said it.

Peace out,

Dono

[Hydrogardener]

"Great-looking zinnias! And...gerberas? "

The flowers in the photo are: Zinnia thumbelina, Calendula calypso and Marigold jaguar. They are only a small sample of the flowers I have grown indoors hydroponically over the years to defy winter.


Calendula is a very interesting plant. To learn more check out my blog post on them:

https://hydroponicworkshop.blogspot.com/2010/02/another-interesting-blossom.html

[cynthia_h]

Yes, it was the calendula I mis-identified. But perhaps I can be forgiven? Along with learning "hollyhock" as my first flower and "rose" as my third, the one in the middle was "d*mncalendula"--yes, one word, like "D*myankee"--from my mother (who was born in Texas and grew up in the South).

There I was, one day in Cheyenne at the age of maybe 5? 6? and my father was planting orange-yellow flowers in front of our house. They looked nice.

And there I was again, a few days later, while my mother knelt before those same flowers, tearing them out of the earth as fast as humanly possible, throwing them into a bucket, her face contorted. "Why are you throwing the flowers away?"

"Because I'm allergic to d*mncalendulas!" The marigolds were allowed to live, as were the zinnias, but I learned their names later. Maybe I didn't want to get too close to any more flowers that year....

Cynthia

[applestar]

... and you still remember this. Take note, Moms and Dads.

Hydro - the flowers are beautiful!
... hydroponics always makes me think of space stations and space colonies. I *said* I'm a Sci-Fi fan