plastic containers

[applestar]

HG -- you said

PVC plastics are a source of dioxins, certainly not something I would want my food plants in contact with...

What's your take on "food grade" plastic containers? Is there an actual difference? Also what about hard plastics like plastic buckets vs. soft plastics like soda bottles? Plastic patio furniture, etc. are collected differently for recycling... are large plastic patio pots made in a similar way as those? What about re-using nursery pots for starting our vegetable transplants?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Hey AS,

PVC plastics are specifically #3 plastics. #'s 1 and 2 are food grade PETE plastics and should be mostly safe, but #1 has BPA which is a newer concern...

[url]https://healthychild.org/5steps/5_steps_5/?gclid=COGJ2ZyC55kCFeRM5Qodsl2tSA#what_to_do[/url]

[url]https://trusted.md/blog/vreni_gurd/2007/03/29/plastic_water_bottles[/url]

Just keep in mind that despite the death rates for cancer going down, we are still increasing rates per capita, and have been since the birth of the Industrial Age, so we should start looking at the phrase "we have always done it that way" with a bit of a jaundiced eye...recycling seems to be part of the problem as there is some evidence of cross contamination in the process (it takes very little #3 in a batch of #1 to contaminate it as dioxin is about the deadliest thing on the planet)

Besides clay looks good...

Just be careful out there folks...

HG

HG

[vintagejuls]

Thanks HG for the education on the toxicity of plastic pots. I never really looked at it that way.

Essentially, I have always prefered clay pots or pottery as it is more porous and natural for container gardening.

[The Helpful Gardener]

They breathe...

More watering maybe, but better for biology...

Alternates to petroleum based plastics are out there; rice hull pots are compostible, but you can get a couple sesasons out of them...

[url]https://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/11/ricehull_pots.php[/url]



HG

[trigger]

Interesting information!

What about the plastic divided containers that some plants and flowers come in when you buy them? Are they safe? Just curious...I don't know the technical name of the containers, but here's a pic of what I'm talking about.

[img]https://I.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4860111/gardenpots-main_Full.jpg[/img]

[The Helpful Gardener]

Sort of a mixed bag there but I recognize the Belden 2-gallon, a number 2 plastic. Good garden centers will take back you pots and so will many growers, but these can be recycled in the normal fashion...

Not sure about the jumbo squares and really not sure about the six-paks, but there should be a number inside a triangle shape on the bottom; check and see what you have...

No number, no use it...

HG

[oldschoolvdub]

I'm no expert, but I've always thought you could plant seeds in the plastic containers. Get the seedlings started, and then once they outgrow the pot, transplant in the ground. Then you won't have to deal with the dioxins in the fruit, because they will be in the ground before fruit is produced.

[The Helpful Gardener]

With you there, VW, but a lot of folks are growing in containers, either by plan or necessity, and that's the big concern here. Momentary contact like those six packs is not a big deal, it's more the case where the food plant is taking up nutrients from a plastic pot, baking in the sun and producing fruit. THAT's where I get concerned (and I'm not the only one).

[url]https://www.ewg.org/node/26310[/url]

HG

[applestar]

Thanks HG. You really helped me to re-think this issue.
I became wary of plastic bottles YEARS ago when I realized that milk in plastic jugs tasted different than milk in paper cartons (even with their liners and whatnot). The water in the same soft plastic jugs tasted plasticky too. So stopped buying those (that was back in my apartment days... so wow we're talking like 20 yrs ago! )

I do know that water in the clear plastic bottles left in the sun or in a hot car tastes like plastic to me. But did I equate A=B therefore B=C? Not really. Going to re-inventory all my pots though I do mostly grow in ground.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Has antone noticed the tendency to shy away from growing in the soil? Is it just me or do a lot of people just not want to do it? I think it's the germophobic advertising (we are now making antibacterial pens, fer cryin out loud!), and I think some people just see soil as dirty, which is not too smart, as living soil is what cleans your water, no matter where you live. Our soil is what keeps us from being neck deep in dead things as well; really, soil is the cleanest thing on Earth if you look at it right...

Walt Whitman got it...

[url]https://www.riles.org/compost.htm[/url]

I'm going to post a poll in the Hoo Hah and Foo Forum; check it out...

HG

[hendi_alex]

Dry, dusty sand, coastal bermuda, competition from oak and other tree roots, nemotodes, all contributed to gardening frustration in my early gardening years. About twenty or twenty five years ago, mostly out of frustration from losing most everything that got planted in the ground, I started container planting. Wow, instant success. From that, the thought occurred to try a few veggies in containers, yet another success. Then came the experimentation with raised beds in almost totally synthetic soil and compost, even greater success. Now I'm back to dabbing with in ground plantings, mostly with mixed results. The bread and butter of the garden continues to come from the assortment of raised beds or in the beds that are mostly isolated from the in ground related issues.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Nematodes, huh?

This little understood family of creatures makes up the most populous and prolific group on the planet; pile the whales over there and the elephants over there and these little microworms, the largest of which can barely be seen by the naked eye, make up the biggest, heaviest pile. Any decent soil has four or five species in it and good soil will have seven or more species. Chemically depleted soils have a species or two and they are usually bad guys (much like fungus and bacteria, only 5% of nematodes are bad guys; the majority actually help gardeners). The answer to nematodes is... nematodes, among other things. Several larger species predate on other nematodes and in a competitive, biologically active soil, the bad guys aren't so much an issue. There are bacteria that predate on them and even a nematode trapping fungus that takes out the badguys, but leaves the good guys (who are too big to fit).

[url]https://lib.sytu.edu.cn/ASM/306-Introduce.htm[/url]

Where can we get nematodes? We can buy some predatory nematodes, but they are for grubs and ticks..but compost, good compost, is loaded with them. SO...

...for sandy soil (which lacks humus and therefore bacteria and fungii, as those only live in the few percent of soil that is humus), for nematodes, for bacteria and fungii to help plants with symbiot relations and nutrient etching from parent material, for water retention and a whole host of other issues, add compost and organic fertilizers (which won't kill the cast of billions we just introduced, like blue goo will), and you can get any soil back to good...

HG

[applestar]

OK HG, since the conversation has turned to nematodes, I have a (well, more ?'s ) I have a tomato ... in a plastic 1Qt pot hopefully not for much longer ... that I accidentally over-watered. An 2 or 3 hours later, I realized that the plastic saucer underneath had a puddle of water in it with an earthworm (my "worm in every pot" pet worm) and about a dozen big -- like 1/2"~3/4" long -- nematodes half drowning in it. After pouring out the water, I dumped them back in, then wondered if the slight yellowing this plant has been showing is due to the nematodes and picked at least half of them out of the soil and tossed them on the ground.

Are you saying these largish nematodes are probably good guys? Most of them were white~grey-white, one was brown (I assumed from whatever it was eating). You said they're mostly microscopic -- are they NOT nematodes? What else is white and worm-like...? Round worms? I guess if I had to I could drown them out again in a few days and take some pictures....

[The Helpful Gardener]

Yeah horsehair worms (Nematomorpha) seems more likely from where you found them , plus the variable color. I feel pretty comforatable in the I.D....

These guys are really strange lifeforms; we still don't have the whole lifecycle figured for certain but adults overwinter in soil, mate, lay egg near water, which hatch, and encyst on plant material, where they are eaten by insects, often crickets and grashoppers, and we THINK live inside the host for up to two years (they have no gut and absorb food from the hosts meals), but escape ONLY WHEN the host is immersed in water, and it is believed that somehow hosts may seek water when it is time for the worm to emerge...

Harmless to us, funky as Tokyo traffic with the lifecycle...Nature always puts on a show, even in a dish....

HG

[cynthia_h]

My sister in North Carolina would LOVE to grow more of her own veggies, but has ROOT-KNOT NEMATODES.

I dunno, Scott; from what my sister has told me, these little buggers are very nasty and will destroy whatever is placed in their path--like the roots of veggie plants.

She has done on-line research (by day she's a main-frame person) and wants to be organic in her gardening practice. The last time I talked to her, a couple of months ago, she was getting ready to try one more time; this time, with a combination of (maybe?) shrimp shells dissolved and mixed into water???

But the ROOT-KNOT NEMATODE is definitely her gardening nemesis.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[hendi_alex]

Yeah, root knot nemotode is the critter in my reference as well, not the beneficials of Scott's discussion. You should see a tomato, or most any other plant when pulled at the end of the season. Really nasty looking roots with the knots all over. I've read that enriching the soil helps bring in friendly nemotodes, brings in competition for the root knot variety, and creates an environment that is less favored by root knot nemotodes. You would not believe how much organic matter has been placed in my beds, and still the roots looks the same as ever with the damage inflicted by these very persistent pests.

[The Helpful Gardener]

They are not all good guys, to be sure, and root knot nematode is the bane of food crops (I see stunts in lawn and garden quite a bit too). But how is Sis gardening? With compost or with blue goo? Maintaining healthy populations is more important than just getting the microbes into the soil. It does not matter if we introduce them and then kill them off. Higher levels like neamtodes can often ride out the chemical storms that kill fungii, bacteria and protozoa. In highly bacterial soils, nematodes are kept in check by bacterial predation; I've watched it in a microscope dozens of times, as they swarm the nematode and dissolve it

If only someone would culture nematode trapping fungii in job lots, we could wipe the issue out tomorrow... call me if you have VC money; I know who to talk to...

HG

[cynthia_h]

From my previous post: >>She has done on-line research (by day she's a main-frame person) and wants to be organic in her gardening practice. The last time I talked to her, a couple of months ago, she was getting ready to try one more time; this time, with a combination of (maybe?) shrimp shells dissolved and mixed into water??? <<

She's almost pushed to the point where she will go ahead and say "[edit] this [stuff]! I'm gonna kill the monsters!" with chemicals.

It has taken her 10 years to get to this point, but she's like me: if she has to change her approach, she'll go all out 100%.

The shrimp shells/water (or whatever she told me--yep, I had a migraine) is her last-ditch attempt to kill the little b******s without poisoning the soil.

Cynthia

[The Helpful Gardener]

I hear...

The principle there is shrimp shells are chitin, and using shrimp or crab or lobster is to introduce chitin eating bacteria, who chew holes in insects and nematodes, allowing other bacteria to finish them. That's Nature's way...

Great additive to compost for just that reason and the one animal product I don't mind putting in the compost (give them a spin in the food processor first and you won't even know they are there...

I feel for you all but just know that any scourge like that is Nature out of balance, and we can help that by bringing things back into balance. And if chemical means are all that is left as an answer; an absolute last resort, then I think there is a place for them. But I'd be happier if you had to license and register to use them; as someone who has done those courses I know enough to be scared...

HG

[applestar]

Just the other day, I saw "LOBSTER COMPOST from Maine" at the local hardware store where I usually get my mushroom compost. Mushroom Compost $4/bag, Lobster Compost $7/bag not sure of the sizes of the bags as I didn't look closely but filed it for future ref... and here's the ref. Now I know one good use for it.

[AnnMF]

Hey AS,

PVC plastics are specifically #3 plastics. #'s 1 and 2 are food grade PETE plastics and should be mostly safe, but #1 has BPA which is a newer concern...

Interesting information. Thanks. What about those Topsy-Turvy upside down growing bags for tomatoes and such?
And if we can't plant in the ground and want to use large plastic containers, is there some kind of lining we could use so we're not planting directly in the plastic?

Thanks.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Coast Of Maine Lobster Compost? I love the stuff (know some of the folks at the company too...)

Can't speak to the upside down planters but by making sure you are not usiong the harmful plastics you should eliminate much of the issue; #2 plastic does not seem to be much of a problem. I suppose you could paint it with low VOC paints, but those don't stick well and would be even worse on plastic. Just find #2 pots for your best bets; my rainbarrels are #2, and on the hottest days I don't smell anything different...

HG

[drerodz]

I started my container vegetable garden but I don't have much room in my patio so I'm considering using different containers for other veggie plants. I saw some 3 gallon transfer planters that are cheaper and a little smaller than the planters I'm currently using for my other veggies. Would these be big enough to start other veggie plants in?

[The Helpful Gardener]

What veggies?

HG

[drerodz]

cherry tomatoes, maybe a few of my other tomato plants and some peppers. But I'd be open to suggestions as well. I'm new to container gardening so I'm kind of learning as I go.

[AnnMF]

I started some strawberries, peppers and tomatoes in 5 gallon buckets. They seem to be doing ok so far.

Someone I know who was an environmental and packaging analytical chemist told me:
"I would not hesitate to grow tomatoes in a plastic pot - there are some plastics - especially some used for foods and liquids that are known to leach small quantities of plasticizer under certain conditions...
Even if something did leach it would need to transit through the soil, be soluble in water and make it through the root membrane, etc. - even if it did all that it would be a tiny amount..."

[The Helpful Gardener]

Ann, my grandfather used to tell me "Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

We are just starting to test low level long term exposures to any number of substances in plastic; I.e., BPA was just fine until a year ago, despite decades of testing. Round-Up still says you can plant food a year later, but new Swedish studies show up to three years for it to dissappear and there is a fairly signicant uptake in root veggies. I have to make recommendations to people that allow me to sleep nights, so I tend to err towards reason and safety, and I do NOT trust the industry to make good safe recommendations, as their track record is one of obfuscation and chicanery in the name of commerce.

HG

[hendi_alex]

Life is fraught with risk. All a person can do is identifiy sources of risk, and make adjustments to minimize such risks where the source is both obvious and is considered significant enough to be worth considering. IMO it is easy to cross the line toward paranoia. So Ann, I agree with you. Yep there may be some risk associated with gardening in plastic containers, then again there may not. And what ever risk is associated with such activity is so incredibly small that it can not likely be calculated or reasonably assessed.

Here are some strategies that I consider prudent when it comes to diet related issues. Eat a varied diet. Get the majority of your food from U.S. sources. Eat low meat or vegetarian based diet. Emphasize whole grains, fresh vegetables, and fresh fruits in the diet. Make an extra effort to incorporate red fruits and veggies, and dark green leafy veggies in the diet. Minimize intake of refined sugar, refined flour, and bad oils. Eat more fish. Opt for organic foods whenever possible.

After doing things like that, reduce stress by not worrying about every little possible contamination of food. You have now done all that you reasonably can. Either become an activist for a favorite issue, safety of plastics for example, or let the FDA and other interested parties handle it for you. In any event, let go and relax. Any diet related risk is now very small indeed, so not to worry.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Alex, I find your trust of the government to protect us from industry to be completely misplaced. I offer this thread as example... TZ seems to share the same line of thinking you do, but my last post is salient to this point...

[url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=67991[/url]

We have not been protected by FDA and EPA for sometime now, and the industries spend four times the money on lobbying to make sure it stays that way than the government spends on actually doing it.

Like Ronnie Reagan used to say, trust, but verify...

HG

[hendi_alex]

I have NO trust in the government to protect us from ANY health related threats. I do have trust in the independent researchers, the investigative journalists, the individual activitist, the activist organizations, etc. to root out possible problems and to inform the public and to generate pressure on the government to make changes when necessary. Safety of plastics is not a cause that I choose to activily support, except via adjustment of personal consumption habits and via financial support of favorite environmental organizations. I'll not worry about whether or not a plant should be placed in a plastic container, or whether or not my plastic bed liner is leaching some miniscule level of PCB's into the soil. Longer term, I believe that pressure will be brought to bear on the plastics industry and we will see reduced use of those products, as well as more environmentally friendly, biodegradable alternatives. For us, a few vegetables will continue to be grown in reused nursery pots, the bed liners and most weed barriers will will continue to be plastic, and the drip irrigation will also be of plastic contruction. The concern over any health effects of that decision will be relegated to the same pile of information as mutagen burgers, risks associated with excess tomato consumption, pesticide residue in foods, and the many other obscure health threats that hit the media almost weekly. After giving a reasonable effort toward selection of quality foods, for us it then becomes a matter of relax and enjoy.

[drerodz]

what would you recommend I grow in these containers then?

Peppers don't sound too bad acutally...hmmmmm.....

[The Helpful Gardener]

I hear you Alex; I am probably more sensitized to these issues having seen the color of the Devils' eyes up close, but you are correct that there are a plethora of things out there to be concerned about, and you can make yourself nuts worrying about all of them...

My concern is we are discussing matters that have NOT been tested; long term low level exposure was only recently tasked to the EPA and the last OMB squashed it hard. Whenever things like that happen in Washington they happen for a reason and BPA wass just the tip of the iceberg, and I suspect the reason they never really got beyond Plastic #1 before everything got shut down. I feel a responsibility to inform fully, even muckrake a little, to expose the truth of how chemicals, both direct and indirect, play out on our gardening stage. I feel especially responsible to make sure that no harm comes from the advice here, and when the folks at NRDC cannot get straight answers on some of these questions for five years, then I suspect there is something to hide. For those reasons, I err heavily to the side of caution...

[newbyplantlover]

I just posted this question, but thought I'd post it on this thread too, as it's somewhat related.

Any info on styrofoam containers? Are they safer than plastic? The same? Can we grow veggies in them safely or not? Also, are they still safe if I paint them? Is there a non-toxic paint I can use, or doesn't it matter? Will the paint leach chemicals through the styrofoam and into the plant?

Any help would be appreciated. I try to eat organic whenever possible (one reason why I'm growing plants myself), so ingesting chemicals is very important to me.

Thanks!

[applestar]

I think styrofoam is probably worse. But setting aside the safety for a moment, I don't know that it would stand up to the weight of the fully moistened soil mix PLUS the plant. If you NEVER move it, maybe. But on the other hand, once the plants start to grow, it'll get top-heavy as soon as the soil mix dry out a bit and topple over. Doesn't seem practical at all....

[The Helpful Gardener]

AS is right on all counts, and yes, styrofoam is horrible stuff that offgasses and leaches much worse than plastic...

HG

[newbyplantlover]

Thanks guys. sigh. Well, perhaps it would work for just small non-edible plants that wouldn't bear too much weight above ground. The article I read said they are good for keeping the roots warm, which is a plus. Thanks for the help!

[The Helpful Gardener]

For those with root knot nematodes there is an answer...

[url]https://www.gardensalive.com/product.asp?pn=5004[/url]

SF nematodes are Steinernema feltiae, and they are available elsewhere if you want to shop, but this price is about right...

HG