GilgalFarm
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Beginner...with questions about fruit trees

We live on some land in middle TN and there are honey bees on the land. We want to grow some fruit trees and we want to use organic practices for personal preferences and to keep the bees safe.

We could not find organic trees locally, but found a great local nursery, Freedom Tree Farms and the trees are non GMO, and do not use neonicotinoids, but they are not organic. If I understand this correctly, that means the trees have likely been sprayed, but this was our best option locally.

We haven't put them in the ground yet because now we are second guessing ourselves... Maybe we should have bought the organic trees and just had them shipped in. If necessary, we can return these and order organic.

Like I said, we want to use organic practices going forward, but here are our questions:

1. If the trees were raised conventionally (they are in 3 gallon buckets now about 6 feet tall) but not bearing fruit yet, will the fruit ever be truly clean and free of pesticides/herbicides?

2. Will the previous spray harm the bees in any way?

3. Will the conventionally raised trees be hearty enough to handle organic practices going forward, or are they already dependent on the pesticides and herbicides to live?

Thanks for any and all help, opinions, knowledge, and if this topic is covered somewhere else please point me to the thread. I did a search but couldn't find anything. We are just starting out on this journey!

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applestar
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Please understand this is my opinion and not based on scientific facts, but I do appreciate your concerns.

I think that unless some kind of systemic chemicals were used, there is little to worry about, especially if these trees are not yet fruit bearing. But you might want to mention what kind they are since different fruit trees begin to bear after different number of years -- but 3 gal/6 ft is probably not all that mature.

Surface applied materials are likely not absorbed so much, and chemically and metabolically, I believe most traces of what ever was used will cycle out of their system.

I don't believe at all that they would have developed dependency as such.

Another or maybe more important point -- I don't spray my trees except with stuff like milk spray and aact, maybe surround kaolin clay spray. After a first couple of failures, I realized the importance of buying fruit trees after extensively researching for disease resistant varieties, specifically against prevalent diseases in the area. What cultivars of what kind of fruit trees did you get?

I'm actually still not doing this part as well as I should -- mainly due to weighing pros and cons of finding good sources, convenience, price, and things like minimum purchase requirements that sometimes get in the way -- but it's also important to research types of root stocks and obtain trees grafted onto root stocks that are disease resistant and suitable for the soil type in your garden.

All of these pre-purchase research helps to obtain material that don't NEED obsessive spraying and care to keep them healthy.

tomc
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With fruit trees, and by that I mean all malus, and most larger prunus, you are going to spray. Or, your not going to have fruit trees.

How broad the spectrum of your poison (shall be) does require some active thought. It also presumes you indentify what are pest and what are beneficial insects. Present in your field at that moment.

Most arborists use the least amount of spray that they can do, in order to bring fruit to market.

A hardscrabble gardener is likely to use even less if for no other reason to access limits to sprays. Expense bullies its way into the equation also.

You need to look at (and make up your own mind about) things like pheromone traps, tangle-foot traps, dormant oils. neem (oil & meal) products,

The sprays your trees have gotten, were what the arborist believed he needed to, in order to get his trees to market.

And it may be needful for you to move your bees when nothing other than spraying will do.
Last edited by tomc on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

tomc
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[quote], but here are our questions:

1. If the trees were raised conventionally (they are in 3 gallon buckets now about 6 feet tall) but not bearing fruit yet, will the fruit ever be truly clean and free of pesticides/herbicides? [/q]
Yes, and there are pesticides you are probably not going to use. Ever.

[q]2. Will the previous spray harm the bees in any way?[/q]
I do not think so.

[q]3. Will the conventionally raised trees be hearty enough to handle organic practices going forward, or are they already dependent on the pesticides and herbicides to live?[/q]
There blight resistant trees. But that is not the question you have asked here.

JONA
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I would add here a few suggestions GF.
Some varieties are far more resistant to fungal attack than others ...so choose your trees carefully.
For instance ...if you plant something like Gala and you don't spray, you will never pick a clean fruit. So look for varieties that have a good record in organic growing.
Remember..that organic does not mean ' Not Sprayed', it means only sprayed with organic recognised treatments. Useing Sulphur to fight Scab, for instance.
Nematodes, Bacillus and moth traps all are organic in their use and give good control of the major problems.
Over this side of the pond an orchard is recognised as organic once five years have elapsed since any ' normal ' sprays and soil treatments have ceased.

GilgalFarm
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Thank you all so much, you have put my mind at ease! Yes, we bought all resistant varieties for diseases in our area. I agree, some spray has to be used on order to get fruit, and we have researched the organic methods, neem oil and kaolin among others. We just wanted to stay away from conventional pesticides if possible. I will check with the nursery we bought from tomorrow and wrote down exactly what was used for pest control. I'm especially glad to hear that unless something systemic was used it's all really just surface treatments, and after 5 years without sprays and treatments, orchards are considered organic. That gives me hope that anything that was done prior to us purchasing will wear off over time. The fruit is just for us, and friends, and to flavor the honey, it doesn't need to be perfect, but we are hoping for a harvest in a couple of years. I'm sure I will have other questions as we go, do I'm thankful for this group!

imafan26
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Fruit trees for the most part cannot be sprayed with chemicals that would last forever or get into the fruit.

As to "Organic". This is a marketing term and does not mean that no pesticides are used. Organic farmers use pesticides, but they are limited to what they can use and they apply the pesticides more often because they don't last as long.

Not organic could also mean that the nurseries use conventional fertilizer. Trees grown in pots would have to be fertilized and by NOP standards, even if they were grown organically, container plants other than a few herbs and seedlings cannot be called "organic". "Organic" principles means you feed the soil and not the plant. Plants grown in containers will require additional fertilizer since they cannot get all of their nutrients from the soil. If you continuously need to fertilize a potted plant then you are feeding the plant, not the soil. Plants in containers do not improve the soil.

If you want to be "organic" you need to use only approved organic methods on your land. Compost, manure, and organic fertilizers. Certified organic would require three years with records before you could apply for that certification, if you wanted to. All inputs need to be organic or on the NOP allowed list. If you grow your trees organically for at least the three years, whatever was used on the trees, pesticides and synthetic fertilizers should be gone.

tomc
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There are smaller, more wild plums that are really multi-stemmed bushes, that plum curilio does not find tasty. I think this is due to there being a thinner bark on them. When I planted them I forgot to spray for many years. To my surprise, most lived...

Beach plums. Fair warning some are prostrate. Meaning they will lay over and never stand up to their stature. Learn to love their lowness. ;)

Given the choice, I only plant trees in the fall.



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