Why aren't my trees growing?

[sheeshshe]

I got some trees 4 years ago and they are the same size as when I planted them. I gave them fertilizer, but that didn't make a difference. I have acidic soil, so I gave them lime. This spring they actually grew some, but then stopped and haven't grown at all since. Except for the plum tree, that didn't grow at all even with the lime. So I then put compost around it, actually goat manure. nothing. no growing. what gives? They're in full sun.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I'll start by quoting this,

1st year they weep.
2nd year they creep.
3rd year they leap.

So I have a feeling they are about to leap.

What are the different trees. How did you plant them. What type of acidic soil.

Eric

[sheeshshe]

But this is the 4th year. they haven't done anything and they look the same as I planted them. they grow about 2 inches of new growth each year.

the soil is good for growing blueberries. I have wild ones all over my front yard. tht is where I have the trees, the front yard. 2 apple trees, 1 plum, and a peach. I put a pear tree on the other side of the yard in the woods, and that one is doing a little better. it flowers each year at least.

[applestar]

What USDA Zone in Maine are you in?
Did you get cultivars that are adapted to your climate?
WhenI look at the Fedco fruit tree listing, many of them have zone rating that make my garden too far south or at the southern-most range, and I live in Zone 6.

[sheeshshe]

I got cultivars that were suited for my climate. we have honey crisp and redfree apple. and the plum is stanley. it is a cultivar that I got from the local orchard, they put in a group order each spring. the pear is bartlett. and the peach I can't remember, but it was zone 4 or 5 when I got it at the surplus store.

[applestar]

OK, so we got all that out of the way.

Let's see....
- Is the soil well-draining?
- are there lots of big trees around stealing their nutrients and water?
- do you have vole problems eating roots? Rabbits and deer eating winter shoots?
- is there any sign of fungal issues that may be slowing them down during the growing season?
- do you prune during the growing season?

[tomc]

Sez Tom thinking out loud.

Maine? and glacial clay with cobbles?

Work in bark mulch out to the drip line. Repeat spring and fall forever. On alternate years you can add a thin layer of compost. its the decaying bark mulch that will really feed your tree.

Contributing suspects:
Add lime every fourth or fifth year
Add rock phosphate every fifth year
Weed and remove all volunteers, sod, and litter under trees out to drip line.

Clay and volunteers or brush can stun a tree.

Spray your peach for borers. Spray all with dormant oil every year.

[sheeshshe]

OK, so we got all that out of the way.

Let's see....
- Is the soil well-draining?
- are there lots of big trees around stealing their nutrients and water?
- do you have vole problems eating roots? Rabbits and deer eating winter shoots?
- is there any sign of fungal issues that may be slowing them down during the growing season?
- do you prune during the growing season?

Yes, the soil is well draining. It is more on the sandy side, so it drains quite well. I never see standing water, even if it rains for days on end.

Big trees... the trees nearby are about 20 feet away from the 2 apples and the plum. The peach is about 20 more feet away. The pear tree is right in the woods near trees, but that one seems to do the best out of all the trees. SO weird! I didnt' expect that one to do well at all because of it's location.

If I had a vole problem, would I see holes in the ground? I don't think we have those or anything like that. I haven't seen any damage on the trees with the shoots.

Fungal issues, well yes. The pear and the peach have a fungus. The pear gets spots as soon as the leaves emerge. The Peach gets the reddish/orange spots on it, peach leaf curl I think it was. The apple trees get a few small spots on the leaves, but not many. The plum doesn't seem to get anythign.

As for pruning, I havent' had to because nothing grows!!! I pruned the first season to encourage the right ones to grow. SO I cut off the limbs that were too close together. Just nothing has grown since This spring I tried to cut off the very top of the tree as I heard that the hormone would tell the rest to grow more, but it didn't make much of a difference.

The redfree did grow a lot more than ever, and I thought it was because I added the lime. but once it grew that amount, it stopped and hasn't grown since.

Any other time it grows at all, it is for about 6 inches of growth and then doesn't grow any more the rest of the summer

[sheeshshe]

we do not have clay. the property was built on a aquafer or something like that or whatver it is called. they brought in sandy stuff to fill it in.

[tomc]

we do not have clay. the property was built on a aquafer or something like that or whatver it is called. they brought in sandy stuff to fill it in.

Water water water then. On sand its the need for a perpetual bark mulch layer and regular watering.

If they was my trees competing trees would become fire wood.

Pear are allopaths, they never play well with other trees.

[imafan26]

Are the trees in a moderately rice soil, on high ground in a well drained area. Fruit trees need a lot of water in the growing season. The equivalent of an inch a week. It sounds like you are fertilizing, but I would up the nitrogen at the beginning of the season when the leaves flush and use a little super thrive. Use very little superthrive about a teaspoon in 5 gallons of water, and only use it once. It will jump start the growth.

Fruit trees have dormant and active growing seasons. During the active season, they need to be fed and watered very frequently. I do change my fertilizers using a growth food high in nitrogen when the leaves flush and switch to a bloom food higher in phosphorus when the plants should be blooming( even if it is too young to bloom).

I think that doubledog has a point, fruit trees develop roots in the first years and then they leap.

[sheeshshe]

it has been a very wet spring/summer. I haven't had to water anything here. this week has been dry, but the rest of the summer/spring we had rain almost daily. at least 3 times per week.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I didn't see any information on rootstock the trees are grafted on.

Do you know the rootstock of each tree. Could they all be grafted to dwarf rootstock.

Did you purchase bare root, container or ball and burlap trees

Eric

[sheeshshe]

they are supposed to be dwarf varieties, yes. Not the huge gigantic trees, like the ones at the orchard you normally find.

the apples and plum were bareroot. the peach and pear I got at the surplus store and they came in tiny little containers.

[DoubleDogFarm]

they are supposed to be dwarf varieties, yes. Not the huge gigantic trees, like the ones at the orchard you normally find.

the apples and plum were bareroot. the peach and pear I got at the surplus store and they came in tiny little containers.

What did the roots look like in the small container trees. Could they have been root bound? Also did you mix fertilizer or compost into the planting hole? If they were root bound and you enriched the planting hole you may have compounded the problem.

Dwarf ~ Semi Dwarf and Standard are the most common tree sizes. The growth rate and mature height is regulated by the rootstock they are grafted too. If you have true dwarf then the grouth rate will be slow.

What ferilizer have you applied? Just the manure? I consider manures more of a soil amendment and not really a fertilizer. With sand soil it maybe just leaching away.

Applying fertilizer. Fertilizers should be applied around the drip line. For every inch of caliper of truck, broadcast a foot away from the trunk. If the tree is 3" caliper, apply the fertilizer 3ft out from the trunk.

Eric

[sheeshshe]

I think they're semi dwarf.

I didn't put anything in the hole when I planted them. The nursery told me not to.

[applestar]

Are you mulching with organic matter and compost?
I'm not particularly diligent about it, but I basically give them a layer of compost in fall and spring, then mulch all season with cut weeds, grass clippings, sometimes hay and/or straw, fall leaves after ground freezes.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Are you mulching with organic matter and compost?
I'm not particularly diligent about it, but I basically give them a layer of compost in fall and spring, then mulch all season with cut weeds, grass clippings, sometimes hay and/or straw, fall leaves after ground freezes.

I'm basically doing the same routine. If the area is out of control, first a layer of cardboard goes down, then the hay / manure. It's more of a competition suppressor than a fertilizer. I occasonally apply some organic fertilizer to give things a boost.

Eric

[sheeshshe]

I haven't been doing that. the first couple of years I just gave it the 10 10 20 or whatever that chemical fertilizer was, because the orchard said compost was bad and make it grow at the wrong times or something like that. I stopped using it. it didn't help them grow either. they didn't grow at all.

All I did this fall was add lime, and that was the most growth I've had since I put them in. When they stopped growing a month or so ago, I put some manure around them and more lime. nothing. and oddly, the plum didn't grow when I added the lime, just the apples did.

I'm just confused.

[sheeshshe]

Oh, and we don't' have much grass on the property because it is so acidic. there is a lot of moss in that area. and tons of wild blueberries.

[tomc]

Soluble (10-10-10) fertilizer is a total waste on prunus, malus, pyrus. Mulch with low nitrogen bark mulch and water at least weekly (you said you were on sand).

I only lived in new england for fourty years, and kept apples for most of them.

[rainbowgardener]

Aaahhh ..... your acidity again. " Ideal soil pH for apple trees is near 6.5. " https://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1401.html

They will tolerate more acidity than that, probably down to 5, but maybe not do as well. Below 5 they would start to have a lot of problems. I know you said you added lime, but have you actually tested the soil pH in the root zone of your trees? It can be quite difficult to significantly affect the soil pH, especially below the surface. The lime you add keeps getting neutralized by the acid soil (and even more if you actually have acid rain as you suggested).

[applestar]

Yeah, I was thinking that too and looked up some acid-loving fruit tree lists. not surprisingly, blueberries top the list, along with cranberries.

If compost itself is not acidic, adding layers of it every year should help modify the soil biology and rhizosphere around the trees.

Since you are in Maine, you probably have access to local sources of seashells and limestones -- you might consider using them as "mulch" or decorative elements too.

Here's one of the website I found, this one is in a pretty friendly form though not an .edu site:
https://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/06/1 ... idic-soil/#

...on 2nd thought I'll add this too. It mentions peaches and pears and has links to other sources, though the article was for San Francisco audience:
homeguides.sfgate.com/fruit-trees-acid-soils-22822.html

[sheeshshe]

Hmmm, well I'm not sure what the acidity of the compost is . And I tried doing a home test kit all over my yard for pH, but it wasn't right. It showed everything as a pH of 6. even where the blueberries are, and I KNOW that isn't right. because they're growing like weeds and they need less than 6pH.

GRR.

Do I give up and surrender? DO I plant cranberries instead? LOL.

I could put shells around it, I could get plenty at the beach, my kids brought some back the other day. I could get oyster shells at the chicken store too.

I've been getting goat manure from my friend. I don't know how that effects the soil acidity.


I"m going to check those links too, but what else can I do?



Also, any idea if I want to move my strawberries out front there, how deep of soil would I have to put in raised beds so they aren't affected by the soil underneath? is it even worth it? I put raspberries there and they didn't grow the blackberries died. and then When I moved in some soil, I put like 4 inches and they still aren't doing well.

[sheeshshe]

Yeah, I was thinking that too and looked up some acid-loving fruit tree lists. not surprisingly, blueberries top the list, along with cranberries.

If compost itself is not acidic, adding layers of it every year should help modify the soil biology and rhizosphere around the trees.

Since you are in Maine, you probably have access to local sources of seashells and limestones -- you might consider using them as "mulch" or decorative elements too.

Here's one of the website I found, this one is in a pretty friendly form though not an .edu site:
https://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/06/1 ... idic-soil/#

...on 2nd thought I'll add this too. It mentions peaches and pears and has links to other sources, though the article was for San Francisco audience:
homeguides.sfgate.com/fruit-trees-acid-soils-22822.html

I find this very interesting about the radishes. I can't grow them if my life depended on it!

[rainbowgardener]

I think you need a soil pH meter with the probes. Here's one e.g.:


https://www.growerssupply.com/farm/suppl ... 03398.html


They are more accurate than the test kits and you can put the probe down in to root zone. Given all your issues with acidity, you really need to know what your subsurface soil pH levels are, not just add lime and guess.

[sheeshshe]

I was going to get one of those, but I kept reading mixed reviews. Some people said they worked, others said they didn't work. Some said accurate, some said no. I had looked at various ones and their reviews for hours and hours and then realized that the only really accurate ones from a review standpoint, were the ones over $100.

Have you used that particular one?

[rainbowgardener]

No, it was just a sample I found to give you the idea. I had one that I was pretty satisfied with, seemed to give meaningful results, but I lost it and now I don't remember the brand. I need to get a new one, but haven't done that yet.

[ReptileAddiction]

I agree that it is the soil's ph. The dwarfing trees are dwarfing because they are less vigorous. I bet that that is part of the reason they are slow but I think the main reason is the soil ph. Check out Dave Wilson Nursery's youtube channel. They have a great resource there and they produce great videos.

[sheeshshe]

that youtube link is great!

Ok, so I really need to address the soil pH.

I will try and take pictures of the trees soon to show you how small and pathetic they are!

[organicPete]

sheeshe

I could almost guarantee that you are not watering those trees enough.
I had the same problem. I dug a small crater - about 1 foot deep and 1 foot wide - at the base of my trees. I fill that hole with water and let it soak. the frequency of watering depends on the type of tree. but if your are in full sun, I'd try a good soak every 2nd day, and light watering daily. if they respond well, increase the frequency of watering. my nectarine is a thirsty devil and I enlarged the watering hole for that tree. it is looking MUCH better now

organicPete

[ReptileAddiction]

I disagree with organicpete. Fruit trees if watered correctly are very drought tolerant. The commercial orchards here in California water about once a month for 24-48 hours. That is a drip system of course but you should not be watering fruit trees every day. A good deep soaking will do the trees much better.

[JONA878]

Watering of fruit trees can be a little tricky. There are several things that must be taken into account.
Trees on dwarfing stocks....9..27...111 etc..are very shallow rooted and will need water very quickly if a long dry spell comes along.
A long wet winter or very wet spring can cause damage to shallow rooted trees and then these will come under water stress very quickly and these will need regular watering to let them recover.
Too heavy watering though can make the trees lazy in searching for moisture deeper down and so bring stress on quickly when the weather turns dryer.
Heavy watering around the June/July drop period can induce a greater drop. So we avoid irrigation at this period unless the crop is very heavy.

If you have the facility to measure soil deficit, it pays to keep the soil at around a two inch deficit to get the best results from your trees.

[rainbowgardener]

soil moisture deficit was a term I wasn't familiar with, so I looked it up:

Soil Water Deficit
Soil water deficit is the amount of available water removed from the soil within the crop's active rooting depth. Likewise it is the amount of water required to refill the root zone to bring the current soil moisture conditions to field capacity. Soil water decreases as the crop uses water (evapotranspiration) and increases as precipitation (rainfall or irrigation) is added. Expressed in soil water deficit, evapotranspiration increases the deficit and precipitation decreases it. It is usually expressed in inches of water and can be estimated by several methods described later.
https://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... 3875c.html

Thanks, JONA for helping us keep learning all the time! Your posts are always very informative.

[sheeshshe]

I highly doubt that water is the issue here. We've had so much rain this year, it has rained a good rain at least 3 times a week here all summer. with the exception of 1 or 2 weeks. we've had a lot of rain.


Here are the trees.

[sheeshshe]

Here are my other two trees.

[JONA878]

I would make a couple of suggestions Sheeshee on your trees.
First I would get a stake for each of them. This would allow you to tie them up so that you can get them to grow straighter. It will make training much easier in the years to come.
Secondly I would clear the ground of weed around each tree and apply a good mulch. If you use fym ( farm yard manure) keep it away from touching the trunks.
The apples are not too bad for young trees and I think give them a couple of years and you will see a good response if you keep them well watered and fed.
The plums leader will have to be watched.
The second branch down is threatening to become the dominant branch on the tree. If you stake the tree you can pull this down to a lower angle with string and a nail in the post. This will slow the sap run to that branch as well as encouraging it to produce good flower bud and fruit.
The peach has a branch there that is naturally trying to reach for the sky and would tie into a stake to help it become a good leader for your tree.

The more effort you put into giving them a helping hand ...the quicker the reward.
Good luck
John

[sheeshshe]

I've tied them down before, but the kids keep undoing my limb tieing!!! grrr. you can see I have yarn on the peach one from when I had the limbs tied down before, but the kids keep screwing it up.grrr

I see what you mean about the plum and that limb. is that why it isn't growing any longer? it actually flowered last year, but then it didn't flower this year. I heard that plum trees grow fast, but this one has had no new growth in 2 years

[sheeshshe]

also, the plum I think I trained it 4 years ago to be an open centered tree? I think that is what it is called. no central leader or whatever. so how does it grow to be taller if the center doesn't ever grow?

[DoubleDogFarm]

The three most common fruit tree training.
https://www.google.com/imgres?q=fruit+tr ... ,s:0,I:227

Eric