planter
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Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

I have a few un-named Asimia Triloba ( Paw Paw ) that are doing fine in dappled shade.
My question is to anyone who might grow them. I want to get a PA Gold and a few other hybrids but am uncertain how far minimal spacing can be. Should I expect the growth rate to be the same or will one variety overcome any others in the bunch??

Does anyone actually grow Paw Paw?? It sounds so cool in the catalogs but isn't that usually the case. :evil: :cry:
Got anything good that's Z6 hardy?

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rainbowgardener
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I grow paw paw! In nature it tends to grow in colonies pretty close together. I don't know about in one spot, but if you space them a yard or so apart, should be fine.

I have now 5 little paw paws. One is I think about 6 yrs old, taller than I am and doing well and has bloomed the last couple years. The next two are about 4 years old and 4' tall, have not bloomed yet. The other two are tiny babies that I planted last fall. So I have yet to see any paw paw fruit, because the one tree blooming isn't getting pollinated.

Also paw paws have separate male and female trees, but when they sell them to you, they can't usually tell you which you are getting. So you just have to assume that by the time you have a few trees you will have both types represented.
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planter
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I'm still waiting for my seedlings to grow up enough to produce and hopefully both sexes will be represented. :D
I WAS under the impression that any named cultivars would be grafted females because they always seem to sell seedlings for pollination at half the price.
I heard that the best way to insure your flowering Paw Paws get pollinated is to put a road kill in the grove. Apparently they get pollinated by flies more so than by bees.
I was remiss in researching Asian Persimmon. I purchased a pretty large one last year because they TOLD me it was self fertile. A little on-line research confirmed the Asian Chocolate IS not self fertile. I do have a couple more persimmons (asian) in the nursery so hopefully they will be compatable. :cry:

I would love to see some pics of America Persimmon or Paw Paw either in their native habitat or in one of your gardens. Anyone have them???
Got anything good that's Z6 hardy?

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Ozark Lady
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These photos were taken June 28, 2010.

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2618_phixr.jpg[/img]
See the fruit up high in the air?

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2619_phixr.jpg[/img]
This is the base of the trees in the first photo, see the wild rose and dead tree that is like sawdust in texture, lots of leaves there too.

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2620_phixr.jpg[/img]

This shows how close together they grow in nature.

They are all in dappled shade, more shade than sun. But the fruiting ones get late afternoon sun.
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planter
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TY Lady.. They sure do look like they don't mind being in a clump. Will you eat the fruit or will the critters get them first. They just make them sound so tasty!!
How big will the fruit get on yours?? Are they a native for you??

Keep me in mind for later on in the year. I would love some seed and I always have sumpin to share. I did buy stratified seeds of Fleabay last year and I planted them to deeply. When I dumped them they had sprouted but just never made it to sunlight. Will even try sending you a plant out of the baby nursery. What are you? Z7? I wish I covered all the zones on my two acres. SIGH!! :? :cry: I'm a Z6b most years but a straight Z6 winter will wreak havoc on my babies.

TY, John
Got anything good that's Z6 hardy?

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Ozark Lady
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I am zone 6b to 7a. Officially 6b due to elevation, but the huge lake modifies it to a 7 with its warming effects in winter.

We eat them, and this is just one patch. My youngest son said that he will make the trip down the valley to get some from the other trees as soon as these begin to ripen. We all love them, natural growing bananas! These are all native, wild trees.

I take photos regularly, because when they get ripe they will be gone fast.

They will have the look and size of a baking potato, but feel like an avocado when ripe. They will shelf ripen too, if close enough when picked.

We just came through one of the worst winters that anyone can remember with ice, snow and very low temps. And all of the fruit is doing exceptionally well, both wild and domestic. I would say these wild ones will grow great there, zone 6 shouldn't faze them at all.

And the leaves stink pretty bad already, I shouldn't think you would need something dead to draw flies! But, perhaps a rotten potato hung there? Anything that will attract more bugs might work. I do nothing, let nature deal with it, seems pretty efficient to me.
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I just planted some PawPaws this year... so, I am "learning as I go" too. One source that I read, suggested a spacing of at least 8 feet for new plantings. They also indicated that as the plantings "matured", the PawPaws would tend to naturally develop their own "patch", by "filling in" additional trees between those that you planted.

Here's a quote from the article I had read... "Pawpaw trees are prone to producing root suckers a few feet from the trunk. When these are permitted to grow, the single-clone Pawpaw patch comes into being."
Here's the link to that article...[url]https://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/pawpaw.html[/url]

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*sigh* I ate pawpaws once (maybe twice) when I lived in the South. Yummy....

Their tendency to fill in amongst themselves is recognized in the words of an American folk song. I can only remember part of it; no doubt an Internet search will fill in many more lyrics!

"...way down yonder in the pawpaw patch.
Pickin' up pawpaws, puttin' 'em in a basket [repeat line twice]
Way down yonder in the pawpaw patch."

Sounds like a close-growth habitat to me!

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planter
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Good info lon.. The three I have in are seedlings and the distance falls at about 8ft apart. Two of them are doing great but the third I was gonna jerk out a month ago. Close inspection revealed that the third one is ALIVE dispite having not recieved a single drop of bonus water during these last few scorching weeks.

The struggling plant gets until next spring before I pull it and put in a named grafted variety should it chose not to thrive but it had better make up it's mind!! :evil: :)

Image

[img]https://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp102/planter_01/P1060176.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp102/planter_01/P1060178.jpg[/img][/img]

The struggling plant is just messin with me. I'm a big fan of axing things that don't die or thrive. This guy just slipped through and I did not have a replacement.

Cynthia.. I have never even eaten a Paw Paw so if this comes together in a few years they had better be fine eating. :) I'm surprized they have not come up with a thick skined tasteless variety for shipping...
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Ozark Lady
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It is odd that Paw paw's have never come into commercial use.
In my honest opinion, they are no more delicate than an avocado, or a mango, which they seem kind of between.
I use them in banana bread recipes, and it tastes the same as with bananas. Peeling them really is like a mango or avocado.

Apparently they aren't difficult to cultivate since they are often offered for sale. It can't be the difficulty of getting them to produce, I can think of many crops that are just as difficult or more difficult.

I looked online and although I found some great links and great reading, I still don't know why they are not commercially available, as a fruit.

Perhaps it is the mix up with papaya? Very odd they are not a fruit offered at health food stores or grocers.

In one recipe here, they call for canned pawpaws, but the only canned ones I find anywhere are actually papaya. So the confusion remains.

Some interesting links that I found in investigating pawpaws not being commercial are:

https://www.petersonpawpaws.com/About.php

https://www.fred.net/kathy/pawpaws.html

https://winemaking.jackkeller.net/pawpaw.asp

https://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Prepare-Pawpaws-in-Healthy-Dishes

https://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/PDF/pomperthird07.pdf


Papaya called Papaw.
https://www.fao.org/WAIRdocs/x5425e/x5425e02.htm

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/canned-pawpaw.html

A link on storing pawpaw fruits:
https://www.ohiopawpaw.com/Handling.pdf

I found a link where you can buy pawpaw:
https://www.integrationacres.com/products.html
Fresh Ohio Valley Pawpaws
Each order contains two pounds of pawpaws, freshly plucked from the rolling hills of Southeastern Ohio. You will receive anywhere from four to six pieces (per pound) of fruits, depending on the size, shape and variety, and the year's weather conditions. Every attempt is made to stagger the fruits’ ripeness, so some are ready to eat when you open the box and others can be placed in the refrigerator to ripen over several days.

The fresh fruit season typically begins around the end of August and lasts into mid-October. It is a short window of time, so place orders in advance if possible.
Please place orders for fresh fruit in late August. The fresh fruit is only available from then until mid-October.
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bangstrom
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Re: Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

Pawpaws can be grown close together in clumps and they do so in the wild. Close planting would probably improve the chances for pollination which is usually a problem. Pawpaws are pollinated by flies and beetles but not by bees. The flowers are both male and female but the female pistils mature first and then shut down before the male anthers release their pollen. Two genetically different trees are necessary for pollination. 'Mango' is said to be the fastest growing but its growth is nearly the same as 'PA Golden' and others. There is little difference in growth rates among different varieties but there can be considerable differences among individual trees. I have one PA Golden and some 5 year old, 6 foot seedling trees but none have fruited yet. Perhaps next year.

planter
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I agree with those who suggest Paw Paw would be OK in tight proximity to each other. I wasn't even thinking of the pollination factor but it sounds like it would be a great benefit. They do say throw something stinky in with the plants to attact flies.

Well Lady OZ says she like them so I'm going with it. I have a few out now but all are seedling that haven't even flowered yet never mind set fruit. I did read Lady that their lack of commercial value is due to their being very difficult to ship. You would think the would breed a few varieties that ship as well as .25 inch skinned tomatoes. :wink:


I have holes prepped for next spring and I figure to order from Miller's as they match my zone the best and they are generally pretty good. There sure are lts of places that offer them and ordering based on catalog descriptions alone is tough.

I just wish I knew what they tasted like not that it really matters all that much. :wink: Hey Lady send me out a box will yuh??

I wonder what they think of wet feet...... :?:
Got anything good that's Z6 hardy?

bangstrom
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planter wrote:I wonder what they think of wet feet...... :?:
I have read that pawpaws don't do well in soggy soil but the ones I see in the wild grow on riverbanks and in areas that are frequently flooded and they do quite well.
I am not familiar with Miller's but I see they sell their pawpaws in pots. This is the only good way to buy pawpaw trees. Some nurseries sell newly sprouted seedlings and use special handling to preserve the roots. This is another possible source. Others sell pawpaws as bare root trees but their 'trees' are usually root suckers that have been dug up and bare root pawpaws, especially suckers, have almost no chance of survival. These are the sources to avoid.
Larger trees are difficult to transplant and small trees require a year or two of shade before they can handle full sun so pawpaws are more difficult to start than most fruit trees.

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Ozark Lady
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The wild ones, don't grow where the soil is 'dry' and they don't grow in the bottom of the valley where the soil is 'wet'.
They do grow where there is alot of mulch, and soil that holds water well. One in the photo has a rose bush at its base, so consider what roses like and that will please the pawpaw, but roses do like more sun than pawpaw's.

Take a banana, and a mango and mix them in a blender, and you almost have the taste of a pawpaw. Or take a banana and sprinkle some orange juice on it.

They are very similar to bananas! But they are also a bit similar to mangoes, both I happen to like.

When they are a bit green, they are even just a bit bitter like a green banana.

I just looked earlier this week, they aren't close to ripe yet, still growing. I did include a link of a place that ships paw paw fruits to people.

And I am planning on having seeds for folks, my hubby counted 50 pawpaw's on those two trees in photo. If I get 10 seeds each which is conservative, that is 500. I sure don't need paw paw seeds, since I probably have 24 paw paw trees that I know of, and many, many acres that I have never explored. I bet there are more groupings of them.
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planter
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Lady I'm gonna order a pound of Paw Paw per your link. It sure is pretty pricey but I have a hankering...

Do you think PAW PAW can handle a Wide hole with poor drainage?? I'm willing to put in enough partially composted compost and loam and bring the whole thing up to what amounts to a raised berm/bed. I'm hoping that if I plant high drainage will become more of a mute issue.

I'm gonna try the clump idea with 4 or five including a named variety in one poorly drained but rich location. No guts No glory in the planting world.

I am guessing that the named varieties are grafted rather than being true by seed. I will look into that not that I know anyone with Wilson's or sumpin...

It's hot but I'm still digging holes!!!!and they are for next year! :shock: :?
Got anything good that's Z6 hardy?

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Ozark Lady
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Hey the soil here is clay. Which means drainage isn't so great... but with all the rocks here, it makes a path for drainage.
Maybe you should put rocks in the bottom?
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planter
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Ozark Lady!!!! The one thing I can tell you without question is that I have ROCK!! Big ones and millions of what we call potato stones. Softball size to ones large that require pry bars and knowledge of the use of a mattock.. :x New England is known for it's stone walls for a reason. :cry:

I think I should build up the height of the hole and surrounding area rather than digging deeper into subsoil/clay/hard pack/caleche.. ARG!!

I may just use a sledge hammer to drive a prybar a couple of feet though the bottom of the hole in a couple of dozen places and add lots of Gypsum or MAYBE crushed drywall as well as a few five gallon buckets of VERY strong turkey turkey doo tea and a couple of BIG dogfish for good measure!!!

I can beat his hole. I can beat this hole. I can beat this hole...

Anyway if PAW PAW dose not like it there are other things... I just hate trial and error when it come to trees. :cry:
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applestar
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FWIW -- two fruit trees that I know of that will take to clay soil and wet feet are persimmons and plums. Winterberry and inkberry can handle it well too....

planter
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Persimmons you say applestar ?? I do have a chocolate that WAS supposed to be self fertile and I have two other asian persimmons in the nursery doing fine.
Problem is I just don't know what exactly I have in the nursery and if they will fertilize the Chocolate...
I had a Meader's Persimmon which is self fertile and produced small but tastey fruits but when I moved out of that house the new homeowner cut it down along with so many other fine trees and shrubs. :twisted:
I will have to do some more research on whether both the American and Asian persimmons enjoy or at least tolerate wet feet...TY. :)
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Ozark Lady
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The smell of bananas filled the air. It is time! Time to raid the paw paw tree, before the animals of the forest do!

The small tree, with the two tops right here in the forest garden, yielded these:

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2967_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2963_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2965_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_2964_phixr.jpg[/img]

Some are ripe, and some need to set on the counter for a bit.
But, you just don't know until you touch them, if you wait for the color change, it just might be too late!
Hubby sampled one, and was impressed, I sampled one and yuck...bitter, we decided mine was likely overripe... not good!
But, there are plenty left to find the best tastes!
Overripe were still harvested and brought home...
Because some folks want some seeds! I think we might find a seed or two!
Please, make sure that I know who wants some seeds, they will be gradually harvested as the fruits ripen.
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Ozark Lady
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I am glad that I watched this video before extracting the seeds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkeYcwTIygo&feature=related

Apparently, they need to be kept moist. So, no letting them dry out on the counter. At least that is how I take what is said here.

So, to play it safe, I will dry half and keep half of them moist... just in case the moist ones mold... and just in case dry is bad... hmm

It says Guerneys on the video, perhaps they would know.
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bangstrom
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I read somewhere that pawpaw seeds are harmed if their moisture content drops below 30% or if their temperature gets below -5 degrees F. Seeds in northern climates need the protection of being buried in the ground and covered with snow to survive the winter if planted outside. Cold stratification requires about 90 days of storage below 45 degrees F to break dormancy but some varieties get by with less. Seeds planted in the spring can germinate in as little as two weeks by sending out a tap root but it often takes about three months or longer for the first above ground growth to emerge.

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Ozark Lady
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I have the seeds in a baggy, and I put the peels back in with them, so they are staying damp.

I read somewhere that you can give them a bleach bath, and then rinse and keep them in a baggy with just moist paper towels. I wonder if that would be a good idea? Pawpaw are not subject to pests or disease.

I even wondered if I should ferment them, since they would ferment if left in the fruit to self sow..
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Ozark Lady
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Interesting...

Another wonderful aspect to the pawpaw is the Zebra Swallowtail Eurytides marcellus. The Zebra Swallowtail lays its eggs on the under sides of the pawpaw leaf, and the larvae feed exclusively on the leaves after hatching. So now you know how to attract this beautiful butterfly to your own garden.
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bangstrom
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You have a nice looking bunch of fruit!

Some recommend washing the seeds in bleach diluted 1/10 but I like your fermenting idea better. Fermentation removes the carbohydrates that promote mold growth and it certainly can't hurt. I have had good luck stratifying my seeds in moist vermiculite with a small amount of well rotted leaf litter from the forest floor where the pawpaws grow or find some composted wood chips. There are good fungi and bad fungi and the good ones are called mycorrhiza. They protect the seeds and roots from diseases in the soil and they also work like root hairs to improve absorption of nutrients. Most are associated with mushrooms so the soil from areas where mushrooms grow should have plenty of mycorrhiza. I like to collect organic material from shroomy looking spots as a natural source of mycorrhiza but you can also buy mycorrhiza from commercial suppliers.

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Ozark Lady
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I finally bit the bullet and just got the pawpaws all processed, the seeds are in to ferment.

I never did find a truly good recipe for pawpaw preserves, so I just kind of 'winged it'.

When I processed them, I actually got more seeds than pulp, I suppose that partly is from the drought?

I even saved the peels, if the twig tips are good to get rid of bugs, how much would the peels do? I don't know, but I am going to ferment them, and try them out on some stinging caterpillars!

I had to put lemon juice on the pulp as I processed it, to prevent browning much like apples or bananas do.
Quite a slow process, I see clearly why, they are mostly eaten fresh!
I had done 5-6 previously and not a big deal for a loaf of 'banana bread'.
But with a huge bowl full, it was a major project.

I cooked them a bit and tasted... wow the bitter after taste was quite apparent. So, I looked up how to deal with that.
It said salt, sour, and sweetening would deal with it.
Okay, I sprinkled some salt on them, more sugar, another TSP of lemon juice, and warmed it up tasted again. I kept doing this until most of the bitterness was not apparent.

I decided to really play on the banana flavor, I found that I had 5 frozen bananas (I freeze them for making smoothies) and I added these to it.
Then I got out the Sure gel, since there is no pectin in pawpaw and bananas. It needed 5 cups of sugar. I had added 2 cups already.
I cooked it down a bit, then I mixed the Surejel with some water, and added it to the pulp. I boiled it, then, I dumped in 4 more cups of sugar, to be sure there was plenty in there to gel this concoction.

While I was filling the canning jars, I had hubby taste test... he said it tastes like "peaches". Whoa wait a minute, peaches? I took pawpaw, lemon juice, banana, and salt and made peach jam?
But, he is right, it tastes just as much like peaches as it does pawpaws, banana or lemons! How weird!

This morning I checked out my jars, they are pretty, not really gelled, kind of like applesauce in color and texture. My camera is on loan for a bit, so no photos. But I got 14 half pints done!

Now on to the seeds. I have a huge bowl of them to ferment.
Anyone want some speak up now...
I am going to process about half for in frig storage to send to folks.
The other half, I am going to dry out.
Then I am going to try to grind them in my blender.
I read that Native Americans used them to get rid of head lice!

Wonder how they would work on fleas? I do plan to grind them, and have them on hand to try them on various vermin issues. If the grandkids come home with head lice, it would be a less toxic way of dealing with them. We normally do alot of hot oil treatments, and blow drying of their hair to prevent an infestation but, you just never know when that won't be enough and they will get head lice. I have the seed, so why not try?

I also plan to go harvest some twig tips and boil these up into some insecticide. Hey they will soon go dormant anyhow. Worth a try!

I feel like a 'mad scientist'.

Suggestions and cautions welcome.
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Ozark Lady
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Here is Pawpaw/banana butter:
[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_3023_phixr.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww281/Ozark_Lady/100_3024_phixr.jpg[/img]

I have the seeds in fermenting... now on to other things...
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Oh yum! beautiful!
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Re: Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

I have three Paw Paw trees. Two Seedling trees I had bought and planted first, then Ozark Lady sent me some seeds and I managed to get one to grow. it looks like this post from May, 2014 is the most recent reference: Subject: Edible Landscaping the Front Yard Fence Row -- 2014 plans
applestar wrote:I have a space in my front yard I call my "Project Edible Landscape: Front Yard Fence Row" -- FYFR for short. I have posted photos in a previous year in this thread. Snapshots of my Edible Landscape/Mini-forest Garden: Updates

There have been some changes since then. For one thing, there's "Paw and Paw and Baby Paw" planted in front of it. "Baby Paw" was grown from seeds that were given to me by a member here. :()
Image
....
Today, I noticed that one of the bigger Paw Paw has BLOOMED with a flower and also has two more flower buds! :-()
image.jpg
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Re: Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

All of my opinion is anectdotal, and is therefore a quart light of science. Pawpaw produces best if it is grown in colonies, and thinned to eight to twelve feet spacing. I suspect the past hand of man in thinning when you stumble onto an untended patch.

The need for shaded seedlings is overstated. The need for supplimental water is more real than needed partial shade.

Pawpaw do not like their feet fiddled with. Collect-transplant seedlings while they are dormant. Pawpaw was one of my 'round tuit' bonsai projects. An, I killed a mess of them trying.
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Delvi83
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Re: Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

I think they can.....in the wild it happens.
For the commerzalitation i don't know why they're not spread in all supermarket.....i don't believe it's only for the fact that you must hand them with care, even Figs or Persimon are very damageable.

The problem is that Paw Paw has a fantastic flavor only if in the corret ripening period....after that the bitterness prevails over the other tastes. Moreover the harvest lasts for more than one month and you can't pick up them in one time.

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Re: Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

They ripen quickly, and by the time they reach the supermarket, they're already squished and mushy.
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Re:

Ozark Lady wrote:The smell of bananas filled the air. It is time! Time to raid the paw paw tree, before the animals of the forest do!

.
The ones I had in Niagara Falls Canada smelled nothing like bananas...
They smelled exactly like Mango......and tasted like Cherimoya/Sugar apples...
they were not custdard, but a soft, less acidic mango..

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applestar
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Re: Paw Paw. Can you grow it in clumps??

I would LOVE to try growing both types! My littles ones finally started blooming this year -- 3 blossoms on just one of the three trees... No fruit set. Maybe next year, I'll find what aroma/flavor I have. 8)
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