Prok persimmon espalier?

[applestar]

Some of you might remember that I planted apples and pear espalier last year:
[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/Image5759.jpg[/img]

Now, I have a Prok persimmon to plant. The location I had in mind turned out to be less than ideal. So, one of the three alternate locations for it is along this espalier fence, in front of the right-most fence post. It would have to be espaliered along with the other trees.

The trouble is, this tree is supposed to get pretty big -- the catalog description says 30~50 FEET tall, although most other American persimmons are described elsewhere as about 25' tall. I've only used dwarf and semi-dwarf trees for espalier. Although persimmons ARE supposed to take well to pruning (people even make bonsai with them), any idea if "Prok as espalier" is a workable plan?

There are two more pear trees on order, and one of them is going to occupy the left-most fence post spot in the above photo. The right-most location is a bit too wet for a pear, but I think the persimmon can handle it.

Of the other two possible locations -- one is currently occupied by a plum tree and it will have to be cut down (too big of a project for me to handle by myself), and the other would be out in the front yard.

[JONA878]

Hi Star,
Looks like you have your work cut out with this beastie.
The planting distance that you have got is very close for such a strong growing tree.
In fact that pear will have a problem if you try to grow it as an espalier with such little room...why not grow it as a cordon?
Pears respond to cordon growing superbly and it allows you to plant a very high density of varieties together.

Back to the ' problem '. Persimmons crop on one year wood so at least that should be in your favour as regards having to keep a tight rein on the growth. I would suspect that you would have to have to keep the main structure as young as possable all the time and keep the fruit as close to the main trunk as you can...so this would need carefull but quite hard pruning.

Good luck....should be interesting.

Jona.

[applestar]

Thanks, Jona. I used the word "espalier" in a generic sense. The style I'm going for is an "informal" (I.e not so precise about measurements) Belgian fence, and the trees are planted 4 feet apart. The existing pear 'Magness' is in the middle with apples 'Pristine' and 'Arkansas Black' on either side. The new pears will be 'Seckel' and 'Tyson.' Though not as forgiving of tight spacing as a cordon, hopefully, this will work out. I'll be making some styling cuts in another week or so, then again in early March.

'Prok' is definitely going to be a problem child. If I lose the battle, I *could* let it grow into a 'bush' in this location since it's the north end of the row, keeping the lower branches flat, then allowing the upper branches to reach over the 6' fence. I have a cold hardier -- meaning among the available selections, not vs. D. virginiana -- (and smaller) Japanese D. kaki in mind for the original location, but it's not a candidate for this particular location because this area is less protected and always gets hit by frost first and last.

Another point in favor for D. virginiana here is that this location touches the edge of my "Native boggy plant corner" -- and will fit right in the community with the little Carolina Gold rice paddy, Sarracenia purpurea, Vaccinium macrocarpon, Chelone glabra, Eupatorium purpureum, Althea officinalis, and a pair of Ilex verticillata.

Can you tell I'm inching towards going ahead with this foolish idea?

Good luck....should be interesting.

Thank you. I'm sure I'll need it.

[JONA878]

One thing I would suggest Star.
If you do allow the topmost branches to run up over the fence top
then try pruning it as you would a centre leader apple.
That is restrict the upper layer to a maximum of three year old wood.
This would at least stop the tree from developing a 'bottle brush '. effect in its growth. With one year old wood doing the cropping it should respond quite well...... I hope!!!

Jona

[The Helpful Gardener]

AS, I'm just not sure about espaliering a paw-paw. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it feels like a bald eagle in a cage. Sure you can, but should you?

Apples and pears are domesticated and therefor I feel no emotion about harnessing them to our will. This is our best native fruit tree in my mind and every bit of natural magnificence that that eagle is. The big drooping leafs, large fruit...; bound and chained against a stark white fence...

I like the company in the corner; I vote for the wild garden...

HG

[applestar]

HG, I'm considering espalier'ing a persimmon, not pawpaw.

Never fear I DO have a pair of seedling pawpaws farther out on the other side of that fence that will be allowed to grow at will (well mostly). I'm also eye'ing up some grafted varieties.

D. kaki has been in cultivation for ages and are subject to espalier: https://www.rarefruit-sa.org.au/Espalier/Trees/Trees.htm

D. virginiana not so much as far as I could search out. Definitely considered more of a wild/wildlife tree... but I have hopes of taming him a little.

--
Jona, thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind.

[The Helpful Gardener]

I have seen persimmon bonsai, let alone espaliers.

That'd work... (stupid stupid stupid! READ the post first )

HG

[applestar]

Don't worry HG, we've *all* misread or misinterpreted a post at one time or another. Thanks for the thumbs-up! Halloween today, so I won't be able to plant until tomorrow, but I think I WILL go ahead with this (rolling up sleeves).

Happy Trick-or-treating, everyone!

[!potatoes!]

looks like you've got the answers you were looking for...was going to say that sounds like it could work but also sounds very pruning-intensive.

but still, mmmm, persimmon (american in particular). I've got six seedlings from last year's seed, may eventually be going in a bonsai way with one of them...