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koiboy01
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MOONGATE'S

Hi,
They have moongates in Chinese gardens but not in Japanese gardens why? if the gardens and the bonsai arrived from China 100's of years ago why not the moongate.
koiboy01

opabinia51
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Do you have a picture of a moongate for us Koiboy?

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koiboy01
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Hi,
I have a moongate in my Japanese garden and I think it frames the view through to the Zen garden,

George.

WandaRichards
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George

That was so clever making the bottom out of stone, but how did you get that rounded piece of timber. Forgive my ignorance, I know nothing about that kind of stuff. :)

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koiboy01
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Hi,
I cut a piece of external 3/4" plywood into the shape ,if you look at the front the top half was done in 3 pieces each piece when put together made the top half of the circle ,I did the same for the back and then joined the front and the back together with more plywood which I bent to the circle some round the top outside and also the top innerside and screwed it together , which when put together made a semi circle tube which I slotted over the granit setts at the bottom. it sounds very complicated but it was reasonably easy the complicated bit is trying to explain how I did it.
George.
anyone who never made a mistake never made anything.

WandaRichards
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Fascinating

Thanks for explaining, but I really didnt' follow. As I say I'm construction-knowledge-limited!

yama
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Hi
When I moved from Miami to Marietta GA. I visit to Atlanta Botanical garden. Original Japanese garden was build long time ago by Japanese.
Aftre renovation of building, new Japanese garden was created by help of Area's Bonsai soceity and American Japanese garden builder who has not tained in Japan nor by Japanese gardener build moon gate.
While watching Japanese garden, Japanese family also was there and commenting in Japanese about moon gate. I have not heard one single complement about moon gate. recentry The botanical garden removed moon gate.
Since I have dear friend who is involve with Atlanta Botanical Garden, I avoid my voice about it. all Japanese I encounter at the Botanical garden. they are saying that "This is not real Japanese garden" Many Ameriac giving good complement however.

Round window are used in Machiai or temple building much smaller than moon gate.
moon gate of Atlanta botanical garden was look like gate of fortress 12 inch thick concreat round gate. Japanese like delicate look.

yama

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rainbowgardener
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I am no kind of expert and have never even been to Asia, but I'm going to give you my humble and not very educated opinion on it.

Japanese gardens are Zen influenced and tend to be very austere and spare with empty space as an important design element. They were traditionally small and designed to be viewed from outside the garden (from the house when the shoji screens were open). They are gardens you could sit and look at while you meditate. The symbolism in the garden is expressed in the plants, rocks and garden elements themselves. Color in the Japanese garden tends to be only the earth colors of the garden itself.

Chinese gardens are traditionally larger, more naturalistic and designed to be walked through. (China had a lot more land than Japan!) There is more ornamentation, more color, more external symbolism, added symbols. The moongate fits in with that aesthetic.

Wiki has a nice article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gardening#Chinese_and_Japanese_gardens
Twitter account I manage for local Sierra Club: https://twitter.com/CherokeeGroupSC Facebook page I manage for them: https://www.facebook.com/groups/65310596576/ Come and find me and lots of great information, inspiration

yama
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Hi rianbowgardener
Thank you for posting. I am not good writer and often short of what I like to explain. Please forgive misspeling ,wrong English grammer.

fierst of all ,Buddism sutra Zen sects use don't mention anything garden.
Soto sect, Rinzai sect, Ohbaku sect , and Tendai sect Those four sects are Japanese Zen school.
I woud like you know that all buddsim, no matter of sect/school, or counrty, all Buddism practice zen. Poreland buddism call"kanso" Shingon sect call "Ajikan" Tendai sect call " showshikan"
I belong to "Mususa" Korean zen sect of JoGa order, root of JoGa order is same as Japanese zen sects , It go back to 7 centuly of China.

Other hand, Purland sutras Japanese purelnad school use three main sutra fo purland school. Chinese pureland school use three main sutras and two other sutras which are portion of Hokke kyo and Kegon kyo.
("kyo" means sutra in Japanese)
By the way, Korean Zen school has nothing to do with garden
JoGa order is largist sect of Korean Buddism , Korean buddhism has about 20 sects , 35 % of korean Buddists belong to JoGa order, far more than any other Buddism scet of Korea.
The way Joga monks see garden is much different, master said, nature is garden, Temple don't need to garden like Japanese have.

Zen practice came to Japan early 600's, by Doshow who went to China to study Buddism. At the time zen was just another part of study of other schools teach.

Text book of Japanese garden, Japanese garden histroians, Old Japanese gardeing book such as Sakuteiki which is written around AD 1,000
indicate that Eisai who brought Rinzai school of teach, and Dogen who brought Soto school's of teach , both of then have nothing to garden.
Only pureland school's sutras relate to garden.
Kamakura piriod and after "Doboshu" who were low cast of socciety become monk, they become artist/painter. performance artist such as
Noh ,serving tea, or general sever in high society, some become gardener.

Do you know that Sen no Rikyu's grandfather was dobo shu. Senno Rikyu associated with Zen monks. His name of "Rikyu koji " Rikyu is his dharum name and " koji ' means that he took precept of Buddism. Similar to Baptize. I have my Dharuma name as "Suigetsu Koji" means water and moon.

Japanese garden has great infulence of "Kanmuryo jukyo" and Amida kyo.
other hand, Zen's sutras have no connection to Garden.
Zen and Pureland Buddhism coexsited well from beginging of both schools.
Some of teach conflict between Zen School and Pureland school. they look this way < they are (sutras) all good as others>

If you don't read sutras, it may be hard to understand 8)
Beging of my Buddhism study I had handfull of question and couldn't find any answer from Books
After practing Zen and studying Pureland Buddhism, 7years or so,Now I am beging to understad what is Zen.
In Japan we have about 13 schools of Buddhism, all practice Zen, not only so called Zen sect.

Word of Zen is now well known to west, Because eraly 1900's Japanese Buddhist, Buddhist scholor spread Buddhism. Chinese call "Chan" korean call" son " teaching all same. study text are very simlor.
Purland monks also study Zen text too.

Some of well known Zen garden was designed by Doboshu who are pureland buddist, Daitokuji,daisenin Some of pureland temples are designed by Zen monk or Shingo sect,Tendai sect monk.
Byotoin, Kinkakuji, Ginkakuji were build by based on Pureland Buddhism sutras. back then, boundry of between sects weren't high as today.

mike yamakami

yama
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Second letter to rainbowgardener.
China may have lot's more land. In Chinese Buddhism histoy, Chinese Buddhism major destaction of Buddlism by Chinese roler. Mongal took over entire Chine, chinese pupolation reduce to 1/6. then Manchurin controle Chine (Ming dynasty)

Korean buddhim was also forced to reduced number of temples, number of Monks and nuns temples were allowed only out of all citys.
also limt gift temple can have Since 15 century untill Japanese occupation.

Other hand Japanese Buddhism was protected ever since Buddhism was introduced to Japan in 538 ( some document said 552 ) Buddhism was always protected untill Meiji period by Meiji Empror, meiji Empror is only the Empror who damage Buddhism about 1400 years of Japanese Buddism.

You are seeing temple's land after Meiji Emrpor strip off from all templs in Japan. Temples had large piece of land to be self effient, To suport temple's famers , craftmans and to buy supply. lage templs often anex which retired empror, brother of Empror, empress ,war loads highranking samurai , they donated land to temple.
Tendai sects Shingon sect, Rinsai sects, poureland temples which was suproted by Tokugawa Shoguns family had large land.
What you see is only aftre Meiji period.
Not all Chinese templs are big. Not all Japanese templs are small. some are biger than Korean's and Chinese temples.

oops if garden itself not temple

Yes, Chinese has more bright color,use more stone ornament and on constraction. China has rich culture of many ethnical diversity.
(I use to joined to Chinese Baptist Church 8)

Again Thank you for responding to my post
Mike Yamakami

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Mike, Dogen's most famous sutra was his Mountains and Rivers sermon. While there is no relating it directly to gardens, I always thought that the "moutains and waters" phrase that often alluded to gardens might have had something to do with it... but just speculation on my part...

The history of Buddhism is not so tied to to the garden, but the history of the Japanese garden is certainly tied to Buddhism. Stone setting priests like Soseki have given us the bones of Japanese gardening style. It has become less fashionable to make the references to the Buddha stone, or the Worshiping Stone, or any of a dozen other examples, yet these are integral to many famous, even iconic gardens. We ignore this history at the peril of losing this legacy and some key design tenets that made these older gardens not only famous, but notable...

George's original question is still a good one; we ignore the Chinese roots of Japanese garden style all too often as well. But much as we do not bring the Zen into the J-garden anymore, there has been little Chinese brought into Japanese gardens for many centuries. One can make arguments in either direction as to whether this is good or bad, but it remains in either case...

HG
Scott Reil



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