Hello All,
My first post here. I've been reading the other posts about what constitutes a Japanese Garden and I'm curious. My own attempt generated an email from a visitor to our website complaining that what I was calling a Japanese Garden was in fact not. In respect I did change the name of the page to Asian Inspired Garden since that is what it truly is. I would like to get "closer" to what could be considered a real Japanese Garden so any comments or suggestions are very welcome. You can see photos, past and present, here:
[url]https://stoneaxe.tripod.com/Landscaping/landscaping.html[/url] Click on the Asian Inspired Water Garden link.
Thanks
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The Helpful Gardener
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Howdy Stoneaxe, and welcome to the forum...
I like your new title better. There are certainly a few Japanese elements and as least as many Chinese elements (the two are certainly not exclusive; one springs from the other, really). But if I try to put a clear garden style definition on it, I begin to have difficulty. It's not a flat garden really; the groundplane is certainly flat but it's dominated by pond. It's not a hill and pond style; the groundplane is flat! It's not in the karesansui style; you actually have water, but gravel is the dominant landscape feature after the pond. There is a LOT of stone, but no key arrangements; I would argue that this is the defining element in both Chinese and Japanese gardens. I like it, if that means anything; I do not generally design pure style gardfens myself, nor do I think we as Americans (perhaps non-Japanese is a better way to look at it) should try to do pure Asian style without a purely Asian point of reference top put it in (if you don't have a shinden style home then the full blown pond and stream doesn't look quite right. Can you adapt it to American style? Already happened in a lovely house called Falling Water that Frank Lloyd Wright did (the entire Prairie style came from Arts and Crafts which sprang from a craft guild in Minneapolis, if memory serves started by a student of Josiah Conder, the first Westerner to write about Japanese gardens. Interesting how things come full circle. FLW's last job was the Imperial Hotel, a traditional (he took some shots it was so traditional) design that brought him back to his roots).
So don't worry so much about if you actually hit the style you are looking for. First suit yourself, then suit the client, and THEN reference famous landscapes. If that sounds simplistic, it is. It's also one of the first paragraphs (paraphrased) from the Sakuteiki, the ancient Book of Gardens from Japan...
Scott
I like your new title better. There are certainly a few Japanese elements and as least as many Chinese elements (the two are certainly not exclusive; one springs from the other, really). But if I try to put a clear garden style definition on it, I begin to have difficulty. It's not a flat garden really; the groundplane is certainly flat but it's dominated by pond. It's not a hill and pond style; the groundplane is flat! It's not in the karesansui style; you actually have water, but gravel is the dominant landscape feature after the pond. There is a LOT of stone, but no key arrangements; I would argue that this is the defining element in both Chinese and Japanese gardens. I like it, if that means anything; I do not generally design pure style gardfens myself, nor do I think we as Americans (perhaps non-Japanese is a better way to look at it) should try to do pure Asian style without a purely Asian point of reference top put it in (if you don't have a shinden style home then the full blown pond and stream doesn't look quite right. Can you adapt it to American style? Already happened in a lovely house called Falling Water that Frank Lloyd Wright did (the entire Prairie style came from Arts and Crafts which sprang from a craft guild in Minneapolis, if memory serves started by a student of Josiah Conder, the first Westerner to write about Japanese gardens. Interesting how things come full circle. FLW's last job was the Imperial Hotel, a traditional (he took some shots it was so traditional) design that brought him back to his roots).
So don't worry so much about if you actually hit the style you are looking for. First suit yourself, then suit the client, and THEN reference famous landscapes. If that sounds simplistic, it is. It's also one of the first paragraphs (paraphrased) from the Sakuteiki, the ancient Book of Gardens from Japan...
Scott
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the thoughtful (and thought provoking) reply. I'll need to do some heavy reading to do justice to most of your references. I think it is safe to say that I'll be leaving it as is for the most part. If anything I want to simplify it a bit. I will be doing some further studying of the art. Most of the design of this garden was my daughters ideas (at age 13) and I knew nothing of Japanese Gardens at the time. I have since visited many true Japanese Gardens and while I was thinking of changing this one I think it would be easier to build a new one. Not to mention that my daughter would probably smack me with a shovel if I made changes without consulting her.
I've oftened wondered at the similarities of Arts and Crafts and Japanese design. And now I need to get myself a copy of the Sakuteiki....
Thanks for the thoughtful (and thought provoking) reply. I'll need to do some heavy reading to do justice to most of your references. I think it is safe to say that I'll be leaving it as is for the most part. If anything I want to simplify it a bit. I will be doing some further studying of the art. Most of the design of this garden was my daughters ideas (at age 13) and I knew nothing of Japanese Gardens at the time. I have since visited many true Japanese Gardens and while I was thinking of changing this one I think it would be easier to build a new one. Not to mention that my daughter would probably smack me with a shovel if I made changes without consulting her.
I've oftened wondered at the similarities of Arts and Crafts and Japanese design. And now I need to get myself a copy of the Sakuteiki....
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The Helpful Gardener
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Funny how often the Craftsmen style is touted as a truly American style, when the truth is it's a direct reference to Japanese styles.
If you were to do anything to the garden to get a more traditional feel, simplifying is exactly where to go. When I would suggest additions to the garden to my mentor he would always ask "Why is that essential?" It's the same question I ask myself now when I design in that style. Pare it down to the absolute minimum; if there isn't a nagging feeling that you've just deleted something essential, then it isn't...
The place that most people lose the Asian thread is when they are composing the garden; we as westerners are compelled to fill the space. Yet a quick review of the better gardens in Japan, take the Ryoan-ji, frinstance, reveals more "empty" space than stone or plants! It is a hard vice to break; I still struggle...
You are in luck as a fine translation of the Sakuteiki is FINALLY available due to the good works of one of my garden heroes, Marc Keene. A lot of the book is about the taboos and superstitions, but in between that stuff are a few golden nuggets of wisdom. Easy read, but tough to study. There is a book list in the articles that offers some other good Asian design books; worth a look...
Scott
If you were to do anything to the garden to get a more traditional feel, simplifying is exactly where to go. When I would suggest additions to the garden to my mentor he would always ask "Why is that essential?" It's the same question I ask myself now when I design in that style. Pare it down to the absolute minimum; if there isn't a nagging feeling that you've just deleted something essential, then it isn't...
The place that most people lose the Asian thread is when they are composing the garden; we as westerners are compelled to fill the space. Yet a quick review of the better gardens in Japan, take the Ryoan-ji, frinstance, reveals more "empty" space than stone or plants! It is a hard vice to break; I still struggle...
You are in luck as a fine translation of the Sakuteiki is FINALLY available due to the good works of one of my garden heroes, Marc Keene. A lot of the book is about the taboos and superstitions, but in between that stuff are a few golden nuggets of wisdom. Easy read, but tough to study. There is a book list in the articles that offers some other good Asian design books; worth a look...
Scott
I'll have to browse the books and add some to my Christmas list. I think I'll get some studying done before starting the new garden. I'm planning on keeping it relatively small 30' x 30' or so. I have in mind an area in the woods about 200' from my house. I don't want to hear the phone ring while I'm in there. I have a fairly steep sided hill area, heavily wooded and already very private. Any particular styles that lend themselves. I would include lots of mossed areas and mossed and lichened rocks since there is already a lot to work with there. I'm not sure if I'll fence it or not.
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The Helpful Gardener
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Look at the Kokedera (Japanese for Moss temple) also known as the Saiho-ji. All about the moss, but for a hillside, check out the dry waterfall. Stone and moss, that's it and it's captivationg to the eye. The rest of the garden is pretty spectacular too. Here's a link to my favorite website ffor viewing Japanese gardens...
[url]https://academic.bowdoin.edu/zen/[/url]
Look at good gardens for a long time and you start to get the idea...
Scott
[url]https://academic.bowdoin.edu/zen/[/url]
Look at good gardens for a long time and you start to get the idea...
Scott
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Music/gardener
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I think that garden setup is awsome!! I am working hard a landscaping certificate at Tafe so as to one day hopefully create things as cool as that!! Can you recomend any books I should be reading? I have a few bonzai, and this side part of the house with pebbles, but one day I would love to go the whole way!! I also love listening to music while trimming away some of the classic Japanese stuff does the job nicley, I also like to get into contemperary musicians from japan, most of my classmates have liked what I have played like dj Krush etc, anyone know where I'm coming from here? check out https://www.freethewalls.com for more info if not this has tonnes of cool artists.
Does anyone else like to listen to japanese artist? I would love to hear what type of music you play when you can sit back in your work of art!
Does anyone else like to listen to japanese artist? I would love to hear what type of music you play when you can sit back in your work of art!
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The Helpful Gardener
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I have always thought of shakuhachi music as the most garden appropriate. Zen monks, who really where the founding fathers of Japanese gardening as we know it, also were playing shakuhachi as a form of meditation (both focussed on the circular in breathing). The sense of moment in that "still point" at the end of a phrase, where the breath is taken, always reminds me of the sense of peacefulness one should feel in the garden...
Scott
Scott