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superfleurs
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plants for alkaline soil

In planning my Japanese garden, I'm a bit stumped when it comes to plants. I have very limey soil, so obviously azaleas and many other acid-loving plants are out. At the moment I have a cotoneaster( low-growing evergreen) and some sort of native dogwood. Any other evergreen ideas?

pd
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Hi, as you want a Japanese garden perhaps it would be best to look up those types that you would expect of see in such a garden and then individually determine what soil type is best suited.
You might find some help on my web page but not specifically for a Japanese garden -

[url]https://www.raffia.plus.com/gn/pforpp.htm#5[/url]

I believe alkalinity can be reduced by applying sulphur; certainly by adding organic matter repeatedly over a long period. Also introduce non-alkaline soil to an area greater than the planting hole. Many plants are tolerant of a chalky soil once established.

Piet Patings
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Hello "superfleurs".
In planning my Japanese garden....
It is important to know what type of Japanese garden you are "planning".

As one of the first thoughts must have been: "what type of Japanese garden do I want to realize ?" it is a must to be able to typify it. Then this is a basis for further study, investigation, discussion and what have you.

I normally use the Archetypes of gardens according to the Tokyo Agricultural University. Like is it a "tea garden" or a "Zen garden", anything else ? Or perhaps a combination of elements from different garden types ?
On my website I try to be of help to those that want to realize their own "Japanese garden", in my case with a high focus on the Zen or Karesansui garden. I know you have found the website but due to the amount of information you may not have seen this. Please have a look at:
How to typify, architect and compose a Japanese garden ?:
[url]https://www.karesansui.nl/html/page_Approach.htm#METHOD[/url] and tell us how you would typify your garden.

I am not at all the general plant expert you may need but it may help others to help you.

Piet Patings
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Ah, interesting. Peter's reply came just before mine and I had not seen it.
Peter states:
.....it would be best to look up those types that you would expect of see in such a garden....


This was precisely why I asked for the (arche)type of Japanese garden. This will help you determine what (type of) plants are needed. In combination with your climate zone and local conditions you will then be able to identify the plants you need. Peters site (great source of info Peter !) offers lots of help with that.

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superfleurs
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First of all, a BIG thank you for these responses. :D

Both websites are incredibly informative. The list of plants from raffia.com is duly bookmarked as it has certainly answered my question and shall be my sole reference for ALL of my ornamental gardening from now on.

Piet, I have a lot to learn and you are helping tremendously. I am starting to feel less "lost" now.

It appears that what I have in mind is a "zen/tsukiyama" type garden. That "Landscape of the Four Seasons" by Soami has helped me understand what I want to achieve.

There is a long rectangle(30 meters long by 5 meters wide) in front of our restored barn which has a media/living room upstairs and bedroom downstairs. We have beautiful distant views, but the immediate front garden is a disaster at the moment. There is an enormous underground concrete cistern at the far end containing rain water from which I water my whole garden, so obviously, that stays. There is also a full grown maple halfway down and to the left. The ground is not totally flat as it slopes gradually downward away from the house.

I want something with minimal upkeep as I have plenty of other gardening to do on the rest of our property as it is. The maple tree is already a slight negative with all the leaves I need to pick up in the fall. So, for starters, I'm thinking of bringing in a ton of gravel once I've removed the grass, hopefully finding a few interesting rocks and then just a few shrubs, preferably evergreen.

Btw, I HAVE planted a camellia and an azalea in the past with bags of acidic soil and they both died anyway. :cry: I do know about sulphur, but it would take years to amend a soil this alkaline.

Piet Patings
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Reading your reply I would conclude that you do prefer to have no deciduous trees, perhaps few slow growing evergreens for the right ballens, and that most "green" (karikomi ?) (part of tsukiyama and representing mountainous scenery) would be formed by shrubs with a low maintenance profile.

If this is so then an important question is: how important is flowering to you ?
Déjà vue .... you say:
I HAVE planted a camellia and an azalea in the past with bags of acidic soil and they both died
Well surprisingly one of the most used search words on my website is: "rhododendron". Interestingly the only thing that I have to tell about rhododendron and azalea is that they all died or are close to dieing. I started of my karikomi and O-karikomi with Rhododentron. My soil is (sea)clay so plenty of soil enrichment to do. Nothing helped ! They just stay alive but after 5 years had not grown and showed less leafs than before. After 5 years I took them all out and replaced them by Buxus or Prunus Lustitanica.

The Prunus grows great. It has a relatively large leave and is a strong grower that needs frequent pruning... not what you want.
Fortunately (as I had expected this) I started off my main O-karikomi with Buxus right from the beginning. Although too much water is still a problem in my garden these have performed very well and the "sculpture" is no getting mature. No flowering though ! Note that although Buxus is relatively low maintenance, an O-karikomi like mine takes a couple of full days to prune.

Low maintenance .... and gravel may be a problem. At least if you are as precise as I am. Cats in my gravel, or actually cat-trails, are my biggest frustration. And now even blackbirds have started digging holes in my Ginshanada ! If you have a solution for that, be my guest.
Alos be careful with tree and shrub placement. You want as little as possible canopying the gravel.

Try to find photos of the Daitoku-ji subtemple Korin-in. This garden also has a long shaped tsukijama and gravel garden compartment This was a real inspiration to us for the Main garden right side (30 meter by 9 meter !).
We have been there in 1991 but only made a few photos that I can make available if you like (need to scan the slides).

Bye for now,

pd
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Here in the UK it is common to see replicated Japanese gardens and perhaps those who have experience of the genuine article would find many only a token offering; but never-the-less, I'm sure greatly pleasing to the creators.

Here is the url of a few images from one that I visited - [url]https://www.raffia.plus.com/visits/purelands.htm[/url]

Piet Patings
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Hello superfleurs. Previously you say:
There is a long rectangle(30 meters long by 5 meters wide) in front of our restored barn.....
I have added some video-clips to my website. One short clip "Long and narrow karesansui garden" reminded me of this. Perhaps it can inspire you.

You can find the clip on my video clips page, going down some seven entries in the playlist:
[url]https://www.karesansui.nl/html/page_video.htm[/url]

Bye,
Last edited by Piet Patings on Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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superfleurs
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Very cool, thank you. 8) :D I do plan on bringing in a LOT of gravel. :wink:

Btw, I live in Chez Piet, apparently it is a petit hameau that was originally settled by a Dutch man, thus named after him. There are no Dutch here, now though, sadly.

hortoris
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You can get lime tolerant Rhododendrons and Azaleas grafted onto special stock such as Inkarho type. For me they are very Japanese in feel and come a close third to Chrysanthemums and Flowering Cherries

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superfleurs
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That's a nice suggestion, but I've never seen that stock offered in France. There also still seems to be some doubt as to whether they will really grow well in alkaline soil. I live in the heart of cognac country which has the highest alkaline content possibly in all of France, that's why only cognac vines are grown here. :wink:

Piet Patings
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In "Chez Piet"....

What a coinsidence ! Now I typed this in at Google and got lots of hits.
Interesting indeed.
I have never seen anything "Piet" that did not have Dutch origins.
The combination and pronounciation is unique to Dutch
"ie" sounds lik a stacato "ea" in Peace.
I'll for sure have a closer look into the hits.
Thanks, Piet,

Herb3
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I suggest you include a few Box shrubs (Buxus - Common Box). They're evergreen & have dense foliage with with nice, small leaves & seem to care little about the kind of soil they're planted in.

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applestar
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I seem to remember Lilac likes alkaline soil.... Lovely flowers and incredible fragrance -- Lilacs symbolize "first love". They were main elements in my wedding flowers :oops: :wink:

MaineDesigner
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What is native to your region? Japanese gardening has little to do with a narrowly proscribed "Japanese" plant vocabulary although it does tend to favor evergreens. You are trying to create a refined microcosm of nature. If the nature you are reflecting is entirely foreign to your bioregion the vision becomes Disneyesque - a synthetic, plasticized simulacrum of Japanese gardening.

The Helpful Gardener
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I would have to agree with MaineDesigner; gardens in Japan vary from region to region with the plant material changing according to availability.

Knowing how overrun France is with American plants (E.I. Dupont and other early French-American horticulturists sent home a HUGE variety of plants and animals, many of which have become nuisances today), using some native flora might be a great idea...the misconception that all "Japanese" gardens must use Japanese plants is pervasive, but I think mistaken. You are building a French garden in the Japanese style, so don't be afraid to experiment there...

With the cistern and the use of the word tsukiyama, I am automatically thinking of a hill and pond style; more plants and accoutrements than the hiraniwa, or flat garden, which is more classicly "Zen" and suitable for raked gravel. Piet's recommendation of Daitoku-ji is a good middle of the road suggestion, but by definition is still a hiraniwa...

HG



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