Like a Hornworm, but what is it? >> Black Swallowtail

[applestar]

Hmm... doesnt sound right. Did you say upside-down?
monarchs pupate upside-down but BST (Black swallowtail) anchors it's tail and then tethers "shoulders" so it's leaning back at something like 60°

If it's upside down it could be sick or infested by Tachinid fly. Can you take and post some photos?

[meshmouse]

applestar - by upside down I mean underneath the twig rather than on top. The top, plump cat may be getting ready to leave the bucket (he's about one inch from the top edge). Fine with me if he wants to go.

Below him is the first one to begin chrysalis. Upon zooming in I can clearly see the silk thread supporting him. Not in the picture but about an inch below is a second one in chrysalis that's about 24 hrs or so behind the one in the picture.



Does everything look like it should?

[applestar]

Yep. I see what you mean by losing body mass. That sort of a "comma" shape is exactly what they do -- they sort of contract like bunched up socks, and then all of a sudden split the skin and the chrysalis that they metamorphosed into is revealed. The skin is shed and discarded by wiggling it off and drops to the floor or ground.

The one on the top of the stick looks to me like it's getting ready as well.
Looking good.

[Susan W]

Looking great there, and congrats on catching the rogue cats. I may try again with the swallowtail using the pop-up mesh laundry hamper. In looking at my plants, have quite a colony going. There are 3 in stripes in a large pot. I just saw 3 or was that 4 just hatched in the b & b area.

[Susan W]

Update! 2 more just spotted on a rue that is in a large container. They are midway between dark with light midriff band and striped.

[meshmouse]

Thanks for the reponses -

I'll be posting pics of a very exciting day shortly.

Susan W -

Glad to hear you've spotted two more in the rue. Please forgive my ignorance, but what is 'rue'?

When you say 'stripes' you mean that they look like the one on top? I'm new to this. I've seen some pics of how they look (I guess you would say) instar one, two,... so instar defines their development from larvae to cat to chrysalis? Is that right?

So, you're seeing the eggs hatch, larvae emerge and develope to 'stripes' (cats)?

It sounds like you've got quite a nest going there. Good work.

applestar -

Yes, that one on top is looking for a branch to call home. Did you know they can travel the circumerance of a 5 gal bucket in about a minute. I'm sure you do, but I just found out.

He's expending way too much energy searching for the right spot. In 5 mins more, if he hasn't settled down, I'll put him out on my apple tree.

As I was placing a beech branch in the bucket (that I thought he might like) I disturbed him to the point that those orange antenna came out and I could smell a scent that was very much like a ripe muskmelon. Interesting.

Pics are coming. Thanks guys for helping me to understand this.

[applestar]

They want a sheltered location UNDER something they can hide from being easily spotted by birds, etc predators. Rather than a bare stick, they would more likely go for a canopy of branches and leaves. Do you have a cover on the bucket? A cloth taped or tied on like SusanW used, a board 1/2 covering the top, etc. if you use a temporary surface like a strip of paper towel or paper towel tube taped to the side of the bucket, you can transfer it to another location later.

In the caterpillar rearing cup and cage, I often end up with parsley/dill/carrot stem with the chrysalis attached to it, and of course the stem will wilt long before they are ready to eclose. So I cut the stem above and below the chrysalis attachment and then tape it or tie it onto side of the butterfly eclosure cage/tent.

...it IS a lot if fun. You start noticing caterpillars more often and want to watch them eclose
I only capture caterpillars that I can identify or find the right food for though. I once caught a caterpillar I didn't know, and tried giving it just about every vegetation I could think of, and it refused them all so I had to let it go.... only to ID it later on-line and realize I had plenty of food for it had I known.

[applestar]

I think 2010 was a busy year raising Monarchs -- prior to that disastrous Mexican winter colony loss a year or two later. Here's an old post with our rearing set up. We primarily raised Monarchs but also raised Black Swallowtails and others using the same set up. Maybe these photos will give you some ideas.

Subject: Our 2010 Monarch Project is well underway

Aw -- thanks, Gixx. Post your photos when you have them. I'd love to see what kinds of butterflies and moths you have in your garden.

Our Hot Pepper Killer (not the one that couldn't be found but the one I discovered in my New Hot Pepper Bed) hornworm burrowed under the paper towels and started shredding them a few days ago:

This morning, it successfully pupated ! DD8 was so happy -- and intrigued :

You can see the looped hook/tail in the near end of the pupa.

Here are the photos of Monarch Project rearing set up for this year:
Eggs and 1st Instars:

2nd~3rd Instars:

3rd~4th Instars:

4th~5th Instars/Chrysalises/Newly Eclosed Butterflies:




Tagged and ready to release Monarch butterflies:

[Juliuskitty]

Dang girl! Apple, you don't do anything halfway, do you?( insert admiration here )

[meshmouse]

applestar -

Wow! (and I don't use exclaimation points lightly). I have many questions to ask, but they will come later.

Yes - the bucket has it's lid loose on top, maybe 1/4 open, and they can get out if they want (as one did). I had a flock of birds run thru yesterday and I'm sure these guys would have been dead meat if they were out in the parsley bed.

I saw your post on a Mystery Chrysalis (Red Admiral), so I got a sense of your 'rearing' cup. Nice.

I was wondering when you said previously that they would chrysalis on a parsley stem or even a paper towel (particularly when overwintered), wouldn't the stem degrade and what problems would that bring. Once again, (duct) tape to the rescue.

By context, I think you've defined one the words I was going to google. Eclose is when the butterfly emerges from chrysalis, if I've got that right.

Regarding the right food for the guest, that's why I'm here. Above all, do no harm.

Thanks for the photos on your rearing set up. Give me some ideas?, I think my mind has been blown.

So, anyway - an hour and a half after I took that pic I posted this morning, I looked in and saw this.



I have more images that I am busy editing. More tomorrow - and thanks.

[meshmouse]

About these pics -

They are all handheld (no tripod). I was bracing myself as well as I could on the edges of the 5 gal bucket, being careful not to bump my subject as the lense was usually about an inch away.

They are straight out of the camera. No cropping or image manipulation.

The sun was ducking in and out behind clouds and my usual life (dogs, deer, neighbors) was going on all around me.

I will give the time the pic was taken and when it gets past noon I'll use military/maritime standard, counting 24 hrs to the day.

The first pic I posted Aug 22 (when it was still looking like a cat) was taken at 08:14. The second pic posted (clearly chrysalis) was at 09:46.

This one was taken at 10:14



This at 10:31



This at 11:32



This at 13:10



This at 13:49



This at 14:57



This is the third cat looking for a position. When he touched the chrysalis, it vibrated/wiggled (surprised me) and startled him so his stink antenna popped out a little bit.

And this at 15:06



And that's pretty much how it looks now, 18 hrs later.

[applestar]

Yeah. In one of my old posts, I noticed I speculated that the color of the chrysalis might actually be camouflage and depends on the object it was attached to. So maybe my mostly green chrysalises are because they are on green stems, and here, you have a dry stick colored chrysalis....

The progression is cool. If you have the app for it, put it together into a slide show/video. I did that with a monarch 5th instar in J position to full chrysalis photo series and a chrysalis eclosing to fully wing-dried Monarch butterfly. I have them somewhere. I still need to learn to post videos (I keep saying it but never have the time.)

If it ecloses this season, it should happen in 9-14 days with 11 days as a typical median/average (in my indoor set up experience).

[meshmouse]

Thanks applestar -

I'll bet you're right about the color for camouflage. It really looks like part of the branch, even more so today.

An interesting thing happened. Even tho it took cat three quite a while to find a place to hunker down, when he finally did, it was on the same branch as one and two. All in row, seperated by an inch or two.

I was also amazed at the structure of the silk's attachment to the twig. A few pics show it quite detailed when you zoom in. You can also see the silk belt pressing into the chrysalis by it's own weight.

If I were on a tripod and all the shots were from the same point of view, I would consider animating it. But it would be pretty jumpy with what I got.

Thanks for the time frame, that was my next question.

[Susan W]

Bingo! My swallowtail cats go rogue and I never can or do track down whereabouts of chrysalis. This AM just doing a walk about saw a newly hatched butterfly on the side of a pot airing its crisp new wings.

[Susan W]

I think I have birds getting smarter on the caterpillar buffet. I seem to be losing them before they get to full size. Sigh.

[meshmouse]

Susan W -

If running rogue, they still have a chance, but if the birds have learned there's no risk, not so good for the cats.

I was reading in the Wildlife section (as you suggested I do re: chrysalis) about how re-located and orphaned animals don't usually do well.

I was also reading about Viceroys mimicking Monarchs which are apparently poisonous to birds and how the birds have learned to avoid them.

I was wondering, if a bird was raised as an orphan, without parental guidance, would it not know to avoid Monarchs? If so, that would mean that that knowledge is passed on during raising and not genetically imprinted in the breed. It would also mean that one bird noticed what another ate before it died, and put 2 & 2 together, cause and effect logic. Or is something else at play?

Any insights? I'm just curious as to how it works that Monarchs are avoided by birds.

Thanks

[rainbowgardener]

It's a very interesting question about how birds know to avoid Monarchs and Viceroys. Here's one answer:

Mimicry: A harmless animal evolves to look or behave like a dangerous animal. The viceroy
butterfly mimics the coloration of the poisonous monarch, which most birds are genetically
programmed to avoid.

https://www.ocs.cnyric.org/files/filesys ... cology.pdf

an article on Behavioral Ecology in the journal Animal Sciences, December 1, 2009

I don't know that that is the last word, behavioral ecology is a rapidly evolving field.

[meshmouse]

rainbowgardener -

Very interesting article.

At the risk of going OT, I found this particular bullet to be very insightful -

Courtship: The special signals and complicated rituals that allow male-female bonds to occur for
mating purposes. These behaviors assure the intentions and, consequently, the safety of both
partners, who might attack or devour an approaching mate if the signals are unclear.

Back on topic, I wonder how learned behavior becomes instinctive. Natural selection somewhat explains it, but then - why do squirrels still cross the road after over a hundred years of getting squished by tires?

Thanks for the link.

[applestar]

I found a BST in a J (ready to metamorphose into a chrysalis) and
brought it inside. It eclosed today

chrysalis was green

[meshmouse]

Very beautiful applestar. Do you set it free right away?

I checked on my three and the first one into chrysalise is showing its tail turning darker brown and I think changing shape. On closer inspection it's definitly hollow, I think it eclosed since this morning and flew the coop. The other two are definitly full. Day thirteen, right on schedule.



I put a screen on top just in case I miss the process with the next two, I can at least see the butterfly before it goes off.

It seems a shame they didn't overwinter as their life will be relatively short. As I understand it, they live long for butterflies. Is that true, if so, how long?

Oh, and look what I just found in the parsley.



Thanks