Konifer
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Killing trees w/out cutting them down

That's my goal :lol:

Any ideas on killing a # of larger box elder trees- but leaving them stand in the process? This is in a woods so I'm not worried about the looks etc. Figured some critters would still make use of them still standing anyway.

I've seen a product called "Vine-X" but not sure how it'd work on some quite large trees. I would say some are 10-12 inches in diameter..if not bigger.

Some of these trees are near a wetlands reserve area. It never made sense to me that they'd leave the box elders up(and they're starting to take over part of the wetlands area..the little elders) ..and yet you're not allowed to plant non-native conifers etc.

Thanks

opabinia51
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A lot of the products used to kill trees without cutting them down are very long lasting and tend to stick around in the environment for very long periods of time. They are herbicides and are often broad spectrum herbicides.

Therefore, I am going to encourage you to simply cut down the trees.

The use of any sort of chemical with the suffice -cide is very detrimental to the environment as they tend to kill beneficial flora and fauna that the user did not intend to kill. The result, is a breeding of (usually pathogens) that are resistant to -cide's.

In fact, what society is currently doing destroying the landscape and breeding so called superbugs.

Nature has worked basically in the same way that it is working now for about 65 million years (with some exceptions) and the use of broad based chemical inoculents is a recent adaptation that plants and associated flora and fauna are not suited to deal with. What has worked for the past 65 million years is natural falling of trees that decompose and add to the soil.

I guess this is a really long way of saying that if you just cut the trees down and leave them where they are (perhaps cut them up a bit to increase the surface area of the wood) you wil continue the ecosystem processes instead of destroying them.

Just something to think about.

Newt
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Konifer, Opabinia brings out some very good points about herbicides. For the larger trees you can remove the bark from around the entire circumference of the trees. Be sure to go deep enough as to get into the cambium. A strip of about 3" near the base of the tree will slowly kill the tree. My only concern is that the trees might send up sprouts from the roots.

For small sprouts you can keep cutting them and they will eventually give up.

Newt

Konifer
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Location: Wisconsin

opabinia...thanks for the comments. I don't believe in evolution but this probably isn't the place to debate that.

The thing about Vine-X is that it kills the plant you apply it to- you're not spraying a whole area. I haven't seen any talk about it killing surrounding vegetation but will look into it. I'm not too crazy about using herbicides myself..but it is interesting how the farmers use it around my area and yet things next to the fields are doing just fine. Someday I'd like to take those fields and fill them up with trees etc though :wink:

The problem with just cutting them down..as Newt said about cutting the bark around them..is that sprouts will shoot up. Then it's even harder to control things because you've got 20 or more little trees coming up instead of the one you were just trying to get rid of.

This is at the same place I mentioned in the other thread- and it's a ways from where I live. It gets very thick and insect etc infested in the summers..so it's not easy to keep up with things.

Any comments on the Vine-X product? I don't know if it'll work for these bigger trees..but you basically brush it on the tree- it can penetrate the bark. Of course they prefer you put it on a freshly cut stump.

Here's the website: https://www.vine-x.com/

Newt
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Konifer, we are all pleased that you prefer not to use herbicides as that goes along with our own philosophies. Whenever someone asks me about a chemical I try and find the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) to find out safety measures for use, how toxic it might be, get a list of ingredients, find the name used for manufacture, etc. and then go from there to learn about how it's rated by some scientific organizations. Here's the MSDS for Vine-X that you should read if considering using this product.
https://www.vine-x.com/downloads/vinex_msds.pdf
COMPANY IDENTIFICATION:
UPM Corporation
28 Garrett Ave.
Rosemont, PA 19010

2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS:

Triclopyr (3,5,6-trichloro-2- pyridinyl) oxy) acetic acid, butoxyethyl ester - 13.6%

Inert Ingredients, Total, including: Proprietary Solvent - 86.4%
PAN Pesticide Database info:
https://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=07268000001&DIST_NR=072680

Here's some helpful info from the Wisconsin DNR.
https://www.dnr.state.wi.us/invasives/pubs/manual_TOC.htm

Have you thought about digging out some of the small sprouts? That may be too much though.

Newt

Konifer
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That would be very hard to do. A lot of the sprouts, I noticed, come up from the base of the tree that was cut down. So you'd have to dig up the whole stump.

Thanks for the info. I guess at this time my best option is Vine-X...unless I cut around the tree like you suggested- but then I'd have to apply a Roundup type product to it.

opabinia51
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Thanks for the link to the website, the MSDS on the website makes the product look hard enough but, with a little research I learned that triclopyr butoxyethyl ester (the active ingredient in this product) is readily absorbable by plants through the leaves, roots and is easily translocated throughout the affected plant.

This means, that when you apply the product to trees any lost and dripped product will infect surrounding vegetation as I said it would before.

Triclopyr butoxyethyl ester is a general hebicide and it is very mobile in soils and can therefore infect a wide variety of plants. Furthermore, triclopyr butoxyethyl ester is considered to be persistant in soils meaning that it remains for a long period of time. It is not a volatile compound like some other herbicides that evaporate off of soils, this is one reason why it has such a long residence time in soils. The chemical is degraded by microbial activity and degredation is slower in aerobic systems (which is what topsoil ecosystems are). This would lead to the chemical being left in the soil for a longer period of time, allowing it to infect more vegetation.

I don't have time to go into all of the specifics but, I again would advise against using this product and go for just cutting the trees down, if possible. Grey's idea should also work.

Newt
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Opabinia, thanks for explaining all that for us. I knew you would be able to do it better then I could. :) I too ran out of time to research more.

Newt

opabinia51
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Hi Newt, I didn't run out of time to do more research, I just ran out of time to conitinue posting information on the topic. I wish that I could have found a link to the MSDS that I had derived the information from but, it's easy enough to search out.

Just google the active ingredient name (above) with MSDS after the name. I believe that it was the second link down. I have added biological and a bit of chemical knowledge to the information provided in the MSDS.

It's important to make informed decisions about using any product and research these things. A given company may post an MSDS on the site, but it is good to think critically and research things more throroughly before using a given product.

Glyphosate, is the chemical that people often like to use for this application and for general weed control, but, a little research will inform gardeners and industry (as our provincial power company likes to use it as well) that glyphosate is a very long lived chemical in the environment and that it wreaks havoc on ecosystems.

Newt
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Opabinia, I totally agree. That is why I gave those sites. From what I've read glyphosate is bad, but what makes it even more lethal is the other ingredients that are mixed with it.

Newt

opabinia51
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Konifer,

I want to provide you with some more information on non invasive ways to topple these trees. Cutting them down, is obviously the first step (as I have said above) but, in order to prevent these sprouts from coming back, use the chain saw to cut up the stumps as much as possible and perhaps a shovel just to dig around the roots a little and cut them as well.

Then, add a green such as manure mixed with a brown (leaves work well) in a 50:50 mixture. The mix will hot compost and kill the tree and not to mention turn the wood into soil. (slowly but surely).

It may sound like a lot of work but, it really isn't. And your soil will thank you for doing this in the future.

Newt
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And if a chain saw and manure is not available you can use a portable drill and drill as many holes in the stump as you can. Then add sugar, molasses, syrup, old jellies, jams, candies, buttermilk, or fertilizer of any kind. Then wet the stump and cover with a thick layer of leaves or shredded mulch.

Newt

opabinia51
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Oooh, that's a great idea Newt! Coffee grinds are a great (used coffee grinds) green as well. And they are loaded with micronutrients for your soil.

Konifer
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Location: Wisconsin

Sounds like you're trying to produce a fruitcake tree :lol:

Thanks guys...I'm pretty sure I'll be going the Vine-X route though. It doesn't make sense to cut something down that's going to keep popping up(times 20 or more)..or even cut around the base of each to have the same thing happen. I guess I'm looking at it this way- what's worse- my place being taking over by these tree/weeds? Or improving the land/habitat by taking this one shot(hopefully) approach- that targets the trees I'm trying to kill. Plus I look at it this way..getting the chainsaw out repeatedly(to keep cutting them down till they give up) isn't too environmentally friendly either. The gas/oil mixture(possibly spilling)..the fumes...the chain oil...etc.

And I don't know if I mentioned the little "woods" that's developing in the wetlands area from these stupid trees already. Very thick and spreading rapidly. They need to die :!: :twisted:

opabinia51
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Given that these trees are growing in a wetland area, this is even more of a reason not to use this chemical. As the MSDS state: it is a very long lived chemical in the environment and if it gets into the watershed, it will start killing the phyto and zooplankton in the wetland. Not to mention the myriad of microbilogical inhabitants that make that wetland work.

Konifer
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But what if it only gets on the trees I'm trying to kill?

I wonder sometimes if ppl don't give "mother nature" more credit for being able to deal with the things some here seem to be worried about. We're not talking about spraying hundreds of gallons on the acreage.

I've given the Vine-X folks a link to this forum...here or via email I'd like to get their response to these "problems".

Thanks again.

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