Switch to determinate tomatoes?

[Vanisle_BC]

I'm 'getting' too old for the reaching & stretching needed to train/tend my heirloom indeterminates. I'm thinking of switching to 'lower growers' - indeterminates - next year. I'd be hoping to find varieties with fruit similar to what I've been growing up till now - mostly cherries and medium sized fruits on the milder or sweeter side of the spectrum. Camp Joy (Chadwick's Cherry) and Jaune Flamme are favorites.

I have beds raised about a foot (300mm ) As I've mentioned elsewhere I'm now having to provide shade on the hottest days - more & more of them.

Any comments or advice welcome, esp on varieties; and probably things I haven't thought of - like spacing, small vs miniature etc.

Applestar, I'm sure you'll have many really useful comments, and please everybody weigh in.

[pepperhead212]

My problem with many determinate varieties is that many simply stop producing, and die! With some, I've had a later harvest, but not as many, and some just wouldn't produce any more at all! Maybe succession plant them, a few plants of each type every 2 weeks?

[applestar]

Well sure. Just looking around my garden, I’m growing those crossbreeding project determinate microdwarf varieties that only grow — literally — to “knee high” (or between 18” to 28”) ~ dwarf and medium determinate, semi-determinate, and indeterminates in between that only grow to 3~5 feet ~ indeterminates that grow vines to over 7~8 feet by the time they are killed by frost.

I probably don’t grow that many strictly determinate main production varieties.


…some of my cross breeding project cherries only grow to about 5 feet…

…Have you considered training your tomatoes to hanging string support (wrapped around each vine) and then directing/training them diagonally 45°? You can also do this by tying to series of horizontal strings or up a nylon garden netting or a wire fence trellis.

(I actually do go sideways after the cherries reach top of the support.)

*tap/click on image to zoom in to see details*

— That 3rd pic is a bit misleading because the varieties here are mixed medium to large fruited types and some will grow extra tall — current structure is inadequate, and will be added on as they grow.


…Another pruning method to keep cherries at low height is to grow the suckers and pinch after two floral/fruit trusses, then allow one sucker to grow from the stump ... and keep going this way. Combining this with a lower height trellis works (I kept mine growing along top of a 4 foot high wire fence trellis one year)

Not shown well but the foliage to left of right-most pic include this year’s cross breeding segregate cherry varieties that will be trained along 4 and 5 ft tall wire fence trellises.

[PaulF]

Maybe I am missing something, but as I am getting older...most likely older than any of you...but my problem is bending and stooping more than anything else. I really don't think if my tomatoes were lower this would solve my aging problem.

For me the hard part of gardening and especially growing tomatoes is the planting stage which no matter the variety would happen anyway. After a short while the plants I grow are at a point where there is no bending or stooping involved. This week several ripe tomatoes have been picked just by reaching into the cages and picking. No backaches involved. If the plants were shorter bending over would be necessary.

A few years ago we decided to install several raised beds for other low growing vegetables. These raised beds are at least three feet high and have proven to be back savers. Green bean, cucumbers, onions, beets carrots etc are a breeze to harvest. Even the pepper crop is now in the raised bed gardens.

Like I said I don't know if I understand the reasoning behind switching from indeterminate to determinate varieties because of size. We enjoy tomatoes for the entire season rather than ripening all at once. For me, the bigger the better for ease of care and harvesting. That way all the favorite varieties are still grown.

[imafan26]

I grow mainly dwarf tomatoes now from the dwarf tomato project. They are mostly heirloom crosses. The downside for me is their lack of disease and heat tolerance. Most are between 3-5 ft. Most importantly they will fit in a tree bag. I only have a few TYLCV resistant tomatoes I can grow without bagging. Valentine might be a good one since it has good disease resistance and is less than 5 ft tall and has prolifice sweet grape tomtoes when they are fully ripe.

I grow indeterminates on a 7 ft crw. I am 62 inches tall, I shrank. The indeterminate vines are 8-10 ft but I allow them to hang down, so harvesting is not really a problem.
If the height is a problem maybe a lean and lower trellis system may be better.
https://www.johnnyseeds.com/growers-lib ... atoes.html

[digitS']

Determinate tomatoes have not been a common choice for me, VanIsle. Still, a few have played useful roles here at home.

With wide differences between afternoon and overnight temperatures and without a very long growing season, I'm committed to early maturing varieties. That is a characteristic of determinates. They don't need to unload 6 or 8 weeks early and die but Legend timed its fruit production just about right. Legend is a nice slicing tomato from Oregon and, if you have late blight problems, it is resistant to that disease.

Kimberley, I found to be a semi-determinate. That is my opinion, however. It would produce early on somewhat small plants and then fade. There are various seed catalog descriptions for this variety, just as the name is spelled in 2 different ways. Still, the story is that it was developed in the town of Kimberley in eastern BC, so I go with that spelling. Adding to the confusion, there is now a hybrid "greenhouse" variety in commercial production with that name. Whatever the case, I found my Kimberleys to be nice little tomatoes.

A cherry tomato, Gold Nugget, was a favorite but it would mature its crop at remarkable speed and then die. I stopped growing it but often wonder if it might be a successful choice here, direct-sown into the garden. Perhaps with staggered starting, Gold Nugget could fill some of the uses Jaune Flamme does for you now. I have grown Jaune Flamme — beauties, aren't they?

Paste tomatoes all seem to be late maturing or I might say, too late maturing for my garden. Heinz 2653 filled that role for several seasons. It performed like Legend in that the fruit was all ripe just before the first frost. We aren't canners but freeze a lot of pasta sauce from surplus tomatoes used otherwise fresh. So, there wasn't a lot of need for a paste variety. Nevertheless, Heinz 2653 was excellent for that use.

Anyway, all of the above are quite small plants.

Steve

[Vanisle_BC]

WOW, lots of good info here: Thanks all. I'll take a while to digest and respond. Meantime this morning I have to do my weekly Btk spray before it gets too hot to be out there.

[Vanisle_BC]

I'm in serious danger of overthinking this! Wish we didn't have to wait a whole season to try something new, and another whole season to see how it worked.

Steve - I don't know any of the varieties you mention but I do grow Latah which fits the determinate, short, early and open pollinated categories. I"m thinking of building my new strategy around Latah and similars.

Imafan - I've been reading a little about dwarf 'tomati'(a word I invented by mistyping and decided to keep). Seed buying and shipping to Canada (also seed saving - are they all hybrids?) might be problematic. Your comment about heat intolerance is appropriate here & now! That Johnny's web page looks useful - haven't perused it yet. I think I've stopped shrinking; more like shrivelling now.

Paul - I'm able to deal with most stoop & bend problems by being careful and using physical lifting/moving devices- some with wheels; but I'm more distressed by reaching, esp. overhead. I"ll put in a plug here for our most recent wheelbarrow, made by 'Gardener's Choice.' It's light in weight, with 2 wheels positioned so that it's balanced in both directions. I can move it around with one hand. But "No backaches involved"? those days are long gone . Waist high beds would be great but I'm past building things and probably wouldn't pay what someone else would charge.

Applestar - (I'll respond separately to your message) - As always you've provided much useful info and food (!) for thought. I've already been pondering the 'top the leader and grow the secondaries' approach. Any system that involves hanging strings I'll 'deprecate' because it means a superstructure to build, maintain, and work with.

Pepperhead - Succession planting short DTM types is another strategy I'll consider - thanks.

Signing out - Sorry, my new "improved" hi-tech phone line is having a hissy-fit. A pox on so-called progress.

[digitS']

... VanIsle, it's interesting that you grow Latah. I lived for several years in Latah County and grew some of the University of Idaho releases way back when they were first available. I'm not very much of a fan of determinants, probably mostly because I don't grow paste tomatoes and don't do any canning. Kootenai was another of those smaller tomatoes and both Latah and Kootenai are better choices for fresh salads than processing. They are probably good choices for open-pollinated varieties that produce well by the square foot but I don't know for sure.

Steve

Shoshone & Sandpoint were with that group released by the U of I many years ago. In the greenhouse, I grew the lot of them for a farmer friend of a friend. Later, I continued with Latah & Kootenai for a few years. These are determinate varieties.

Snake River Seeds sells the seed for these and say in their FAQ's that they ship to Canada LINK.

[imafan26]

The dwarf tomato project are all hybrids and they are open sourced seeds because they actually want people to experiment with them. Some of the older varieties are more stable at the 8th - 10 th generation.

https://www.dwarftomatoproject.net/

I remember another dwarf tomato I liked. New Big dwarf. It is a cross between Ponderosa ( a ancestor of brandywine) and dwarf champion. It grows usually under 3.5 ft and produces large beefsteak tomatoes. It is not high yielding because of its diminutive size. This is an heirloom.

[applestar]

One of the Dwarf Project varieties I can recommend is Chocolate Lightning. Victory Seeds has good descriptions.

… I was trying out different varieties before, from shared seeds … and I would have been able to tell you more by now, but I got side tracked with trying out my own projects

[Gary350]

My grand parents use to let there tomato plants crawl across the soil like a watermelon patch. Row was about 30 ft long & plant spacing about 20" apart, plants laying on the soil was about 3 ft wide. My grand mother picked tomatoes every day and canned tomatoes every day.

My problem with determinate varieties plants produce about 25 to 30 ripe tomatoes then plants die. You need to start a new plant once a week from seed for 4 month to have ripe tomatoes all summer.

I have a heirlooms cherry tomato that has very good sweet flavor the tomatoes are the diameter of pin pong balls. Plants load up with about 75 ripe tomatoes and stay that way all summer. I bought these 47 years ago and been saving my own seeds. No one sells these anymore I keep looking but never see them for sale.

I also have a marble diameter tomato called, jelly bean. These grow like clusters of grapes I have never been able to get a good count on how many tomatoes are on 1 plant but is probably 100 to 150 tomatoes. Fully ripe they are very sweet. Lever ripe tomatoes in the house 3 days they get much sweeter.

I can mail anyone seeds.

[imafan26]

Actually, I thought determinants did just that. Produce all at once and die. But, in my climate they will actually produce in batches. But the ones I have cannot handle summer heat. They stop producing until the temperatures drop closer to 80. Then they usually produce a few more tomatoes before they succumb to disease and age. By then they are about 6 months old. My indeterminates can live about 10 months.

Now, if I grow determinant tomatoes. I pull them after the first or second set. It is really not worth the time, effort, and water to keep them alive just to have a few more tomatoes in the fall. The non heat tolerant indeterminates do the same thing, they will stop setting fruit in temperatures over 85 degrees.

This year, because of La Nina, it hasn't been that hot. It has not even been over 85 degrees more than a couple of weeks and this is the hottest time of the year. I have been getting continuous tomatoes from the sweet pea currant. Valentine vine died, but I have younger vines that need potting up. It never stopped producing till the very end. Sweet pea is indeterminate but I have a trellis made from double stacking two square tomato trellises. It is a little over 7 ft tall and the tomato is in an eighteen gallon container that is about 2 ft tall. I am 5'2" and while I cannot reach the top, the vines actually trail down after they get to the top so harvesting tomatoes is not very hard and does not require a lot of bending. Actually, my vine is a bit heavy, I need to add one or two more stakes because it likes to lean to one side.