This year I am experimenting with growing tomatoes like you would grow potatoes.
I filled a 5 gallon bucket with 6 inch soil and buried a seedling till only the top was visible. As the plant grew, I removed the leaves and piled more soil. Repeated this process till the bucket was filled to last 6 inches.
My plants are producing now (September). They are healthy and fruits are nice and big.
Question is: Have I sacrificed more in lost growth during the months of June and July than it is worth.
Since they are in buckets, I will bring them inside around the time frost is forecast.
I will post my findings sometime in December
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applestar
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I need more info to reach any definitive conclusion — including variety, some photos, etc.
If I were trying something like this, better timing for planning to bring inside would be before night time temp falls below 50°F, 55°F to continue uninterrupted growth and development.
The indoor location should be prepared with sufficient supplemental light. Light-Reflective (white or mirrored) walls and floors/surfaces help also.
(Regardless, tomatoes have seemed to slow down growth around Persephone days.)
Light set up might be —Full height exposure like at least one 4 ft shop light standing or secured vertically, 2 tubes with sunny window. Or south-facing unobstructed sliding glass door perhaps, with supplemental lights on the room side of the plant. 14 to 16 hours total light period.
Judicious pruning to open up the plant to more light might be helpful. Are you removing suckers? How many stems/branches are you allowing to grow?
Pay close attention for signs of aphids, whiteflies, and mites.
If I were trying something like this, better timing for planning to bring inside would be before night time temp falls below 50°F, 55°F to continue uninterrupted growth and development.
The indoor location should be prepared with sufficient supplemental light. Light-Reflective (white or mirrored) walls and floors/surfaces help also.
(Regardless, tomatoes have seemed to slow down growth around Persephone days.)
Light set up might be —Full height exposure like at least one 4 ft shop light standing or secured vertically, 2 tubes with sunny window. Or south-facing unobstructed sliding glass door perhaps, with supplemental lights on the room side of the plant. 14 to 16 hours total light period.
Judicious pruning to open up the plant to more light might be helpful. Are you removing suckers? How many stems/branches are you allowing to grow?
Pay close attention for signs of aphids, whiteflies, and mites.
I am allowing 4 growing stems. First stem starting just below the first flowers.
I did not pay any attention to the type of plants etc. Just a random thought occurred (since deep planting is better) that piling dirt as we go may replace the deep planting.
I also tried something else with my ground planted tomatoes. I put an open cardboard box around the main stem and filled it with dirt. Kept couple of plants (same variety) without the box. The ones with the box are doing much better.
I will heed your advise about the lights and such.
Here in Denver area we get good daytime temps till mid October. Later, night freezes but days are still warm. So I plan to cart the plants in and out till daytime temps drop to 60 or below.
I did not pay any attention to the type of plants etc. Just a random thought occurred (since deep planting is better) that piling dirt as we go may replace the deep planting.
I also tried something else with my ground planted tomatoes. I put an open cardboard box around the main stem and filled it with dirt. Kept couple of plants (same variety) without the box. The ones with the box are doing much better.
I will heed your advise about the lights and such.
Here in Denver area we get good daytime temps till mid October. Later, night freezes but days are still warm. So I plan to cart the plants in and out till daytime temps drop to 60 or below.
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applestar
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I didn’t mean to imply that the theory isn’t sound. Larger root system should be able to support greater upper growth, so you could see stronger, thicker and more vigorous plant structure and fruiting… as long as other elements needed for healthy growths are met including light, water, and nutrients.
But in a container, you could then run into the limitation in maintaining even moisture and supplying air to the roots, …ultimately too little root space. Indoors, there may be limits to upper growing space, and already growing plants need to be sufficiently and supported and secured well to the container for transport.
Are you saying you don’t know the name variety of these tomatoes? It’s important to know if they are indeterminate type or determinate type, although it already sounds like it’s probably indeterminate. Also small fruit bearing type or larger fruit bearing type, and typical ultimate size of the plant. These all play heavily into their performance when grown in containers, and indicate the size of containers needed to grow to maturity and optimum growth, fruit sizes, etc.
I’ve grown microdwarf varieties that only grow up to 8 to 12 inches and dies after bearing a flush of cherry size fruits to indeterminate, large fruited varieties and cherry varieties that keep growing and producing until frost kills them — 10, 12 feet or more. Microdwarf and dwarf varieties have more compact growth habits.
I wish I could show you the variations in growth patterns among just the medium to large fruited varieties in one row of tomatoes. Different varieties also exhibit longevity differences too — some will keep going while others will give up.
There are some varieties that are much more suited to container culture and INDOOR container culture than others.
I only know about heirlooms and stable genetic OP varieties, I don’t have enough experience with hybrids, BUT the developers usually have data on them.
Hmm… Reading that over, I still sound critical and kind of off-putting. — I don’t mean to be, honest. I’m really looking forward to hearing about your progress and results. What kind of set up you have decided to use, etc. Good luck!
But in a container, you could then run into the limitation in maintaining even moisture and supplying air to the roots, …ultimately too little root space. Indoors, there may be limits to upper growing space, and already growing plants need to be sufficiently and supported and secured well to the container for transport.
Are you saying you don’t know the name variety of these tomatoes? It’s important to know if they are indeterminate type or determinate type, although it already sounds like it’s probably indeterminate. Also small fruit bearing type or larger fruit bearing type, and typical ultimate size of the plant. These all play heavily into their performance when grown in containers, and indicate the size of containers needed to grow to maturity and optimum growth, fruit sizes, etc.
I’ve grown microdwarf varieties that only grow up to 8 to 12 inches and dies after bearing a flush of cherry size fruits to indeterminate, large fruited varieties and cherry varieties that keep growing and producing until frost kills them — 10, 12 feet or more. Microdwarf and dwarf varieties have more compact growth habits.
I wish I could show you the variations in growth patterns among just the medium to large fruited varieties in one row of tomatoes. Different varieties also exhibit longevity differences too — some will keep going while others will give up.
There are some varieties that are much more suited to container culture and INDOOR container culture than others.
I only know about heirlooms and stable genetic OP varieties, I don’t have enough experience with hybrids, BUT the developers usually have data on them.
Hmm… Reading that over, I still sound critical and kind of off-putting. — I don’t mean to be, honest. I’m really looking forward to hearing about your progress and results. What kind of set up you have decided to use, etc. Good luck!
I know my tomatoes are indeterminate. Reason I don't know the type and name is that these are "gratis" tomatoes. Last year some tomatoes went mushy and my wife threw them back in our garden patch. Some plants came up and became part of the experiment.
You are not off putting. The information given is extremely useful.
I am going to get a lot of late tomatoes. Don't know how many and the quality of tomatoes that get harvested inside.
Motivation for this experiment was also that when my tomatoes come in, they are on sale in supermarket. I wanted to have fresh tomatoes when they fetch ooh and aahs
Next year, I will do succession planting as was advocated in an earlier post.
You are not off putting. The information given is extremely useful.
I am going to get a lot of late tomatoes. Don't know how many and the quality of tomatoes that get harvested inside.
Motivation for this experiment was also that when my tomatoes come in, they are on sale in supermarket. I wanted to have fresh tomatoes when they fetch ooh and aahs
Next year, I will do succession planting as was advocated in an earlier post.
A five gallon bucket of wet soil with a large plant in it sounds heavy!
I have six gallon pots in the backyard and grow 3 or 4 tomatoes each year in them. They are filled with compost. My compost has some soil in it. I have to add a little more compost to compensate for settling but make no effort at special deep planting. The backyard is a more protected environment than the open garden and the plants grow very nearly as well with that limited root space as the same varieties do in the garden.
Once, I moved one potted plant into the greenhouse just before first frost. Very heavy! It went in okay but ripening of the remaining fruit was a surprisingly slow process. The greenhouse was not heated during those weeks and could be quite cool after the hours of darkness but the plant didn't freeze. Limited hours of sunlight and the cool mornings were what I blamed for the slow maturing of the tomatoes.
Steve
I have six gallon pots in the backyard and grow 3 or 4 tomatoes each year in them. They are filled with compost. My compost has some soil in it. I have to add a little more compost to compensate for settling but make no effort at special deep planting. The backyard is a more protected environment than the open garden and the plants grow very nearly as well with that limited root space as the same varieties do in the garden.
Once, I moved one potted plant into the greenhouse just before first frost. Very heavy! It went in okay but ripening of the remaining fruit was a surprisingly slow process. The greenhouse was not heated during those weeks and could be quite cool after the hours of darkness but the plant didn't freeze. Limited hours of sunlight and the cool mornings were what I blamed for the slow maturing of the tomatoes.
Steve
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Vanisle_BC
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It does help to bury the tomato stems to promote root growth. I also do it because I don't like lanky tomatoes. As it is I bury most of the stem and determinate tomatoes still overtop the tomato cage.
Planting in smaller containers, you plant growth will be restricted. Productiveness is varietal related. A cherry produces more than a slicer and a Red cherry will produce more than Matt's Wild Cherry because of genetics.
If you have indeterminate tomatoes they will continue to produce as long as they are healthy and you can keep the plants above 50 degrees. Determinates, though, produce most of their tomatoes all at once and once the flowers set on the terminal buds, they won't produce anymore. So, as far as the orginal question that was posed. For determinates with a determinate life, you won't be able to maximize production much. Determinates should not be pruned much anyway. Indeterminates produce throughout their lifetime so they will produce more fruit over time. It is however, unnecessary to bury the stem of a tomato that deep because age does matter.
Delaying the maturity of the tomato by promoting more root growth especially in a pot, would have lost some production. Tomatoes do a good job of expanding their root system, but if you want more fruit, you need enough canopy to support it.
Taking most of the leaves off the stems on a semi determinate encourages more fruit set at the leaf nodes. You would get larger, but fewer fruit by taking of the side shoots. Because there is less canopy protecting the fruit, it should be grown in a controlled environment because too much sun would increase sun scald.
Planting in smaller containers, you plant growth will be restricted. Productiveness is varietal related. A cherry produces more than a slicer and a Red cherry will produce more than Matt's Wild Cherry because of genetics.
If you have indeterminate tomatoes they will continue to produce as long as they are healthy and you can keep the plants above 50 degrees. Determinates, though, produce most of their tomatoes all at once and once the flowers set on the terminal buds, they won't produce anymore. So, as far as the orginal question that was posed. For determinates with a determinate life, you won't be able to maximize production much. Determinates should not be pruned much anyway. Indeterminates produce throughout their lifetime so they will produce more fruit over time. It is however, unnecessary to bury the stem of a tomato that deep because age does matter.
Delaying the maturity of the tomato by promoting more root growth especially in a pot, would have lost some production. Tomatoes do a good job of expanding their root system, but if you want more fruit, you need enough canopy to support it.
Taking most of the leaves off the stems on a semi determinate encourages more fruit set at the leaf nodes. You would get larger, but fewer fruit by taking of the side shoots. Because there is less canopy protecting the fruit, it should be grown in a controlled environment because too much sun would increase sun scald.
I will keep track of total number of fruits till the plants stop producing. At this moment, I have made them turtle and are losing to the hares by a mile. The crux of the experiment was to see if sacrificing today's growth rewards you over long term. Being an Engineer, I am used to failing more than succeeding. We shall see and adapt.
One lazy question. How do you tell a determinate? I have one that I trust is determinate as it has stopped producing suckers. If I knew it beforehand, I would not have trimmed the suckers.
One lazy question. How do you tell a determinate? I have one that I trust is determinate as it has stopped producing suckers. If I knew it beforehand, I would not have trimmed the suckers.
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applestar
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OK, since we’re discussing — in addition to increased root mass, burying deeper also has positive and negative influences from ambient and soil temperature and moisture levels. BENEFIT depends on your local and micro climate.
In the ground, planting DEEPER means cooler/colder soil and root temperature and access to moisture reservoir.
In colder area, the lower temperature could delay early development, in hotter area, the lower temperature could extend plant viability as summer heat start to set in. In wet area, the deeper roots could get waterlogged, in drier area, access to underground reservoirs could be life saving.
In colder climate, the advice is to plant SHALLOWER in sideway or angled trench to minimize the cold temperature shock that can retard early growth.
IN A CONTAINER, initially, ambient temperature is higher than the soil temperature, and will continue to keep the roots warmer than in the soil. In extreme heat of the summer, the plant won’t get the geothermal cooling effect and could end up overheating faster.
In the ground, planting DEEPER means cooler/colder soil and root temperature and access to moisture reservoir.
In colder area, the lower temperature could delay early development, in hotter area, the lower temperature could extend plant viability as summer heat start to set in. In wet area, the deeper roots could get waterlogged, in drier area, access to underground reservoirs could be life saving.
In colder climate, the advice is to plant SHALLOWER in sideway or angled trench to minimize the cold temperature shock that can retard early growth.
IN A CONTAINER, initially, ambient temperature is higher than the soil temperature, and will continue to keep the roots warmer than in the soil. In extreme heat of the summer, the plant won’t get the geothermal cooling effect and could end up overheating faster.
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applestar
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The terminal growth of Determinate plants end with floral cluster instead of continuing leaf clusters and floral truss along the stem after every two leafnodes.
Some determinates and what are called semi-determinates will then produce a new sucker from a leafnode below the floral cluster, which will eventually terminate in a floral cluster.
Semi-determinates will more-or-less continue to grow endlessly in this way that is different from indeterminates.
Some determinates and what are called semi-determinates will then produce a new sucker from a leafnode below the floral cluster, which will eventually terminate in a floral cluster.
Semi-determinates will more-or-less continue to grow endlessly in this way that is different from indeterminates.
Update at the end of season.
My experiment was successful beyond expectations. At least 3x tomatoes as compared to the control.
It worked for both determinates as well as indeterminates. I came to know about not pinching growth from determinates too late. So each plant produced less than it should have, but the one with buried stem did much better.
I had put a small Amazon box about 8" high around the stem and filled it with soil and compost mixture.
Downside is that it took longer to set fruit. We also had a record breaking rain this season (in Denver we exceeded Seattle). That meant I have 100s of green tomatoes in my fridge.
My experiment was successful beyond expectations. At least 3x tomatoes as compared to the control.
It worked for both determinates as well as indeterminates. I came to know about not pinching growth from determinates too late. So each plant produced less than it should have, but the one with buried stem did much better.
I had put a small Amazon box about 8" high around the stem and filled it with soil and compost mixture.
Downside is that it took longer to set fruit. We also had a record breaking rain this season (in Denver we exceeded Seattle). That meant I have 100s of green tomatoes in my fridge.
Live and learn. It is nice to experiment to see what works best for you. If you look up the varieties they usually tell you in the description if they are determinate or indeterminate if you look it up from a good catalog site. Semi determinates are usually still listed as determinate.
I like to check reviews from Dave's garden if there is a cultivar I am interested in. It usually lists what places the cultivars have grown in and how they performed for people. Some varieties you can check on Tatiana's tomato base under tomatoes in the informational database. Other information like flavor profile, disease resistance and productivity is sometimes mentioned.
I have a 365 day growing year so days to maturity don't matter to me. But to some people who have 120 growing days, they would prefer to grow plants with shorter maturity dates and better cold tolerance. For me, tomatoes live an average of 10 months, six months for determinates. In Hawaii, tomatoes and some other plants that are considered annuals elsewhere are technically perennial here, but disease usually kills them. What works for me may not work for you. That is why it actually is important to experiment to see what cultivars and techniques work best for you.
For me I do bury the stems up to the top 4 leaves when transplanting. But, the tomato will put out a full root system and go out of the pot into the ground before it is done, so hilling is not worthwhile for me. Pot size however, does matter and I use an 18 gallon container for tomatoes. Even if you bury more stem to produce
more roots, it does not matter much if the container is not big enough. It would not be worth doing in say a 5 gallon bucket unless you are going to let the roots go to ground.
As far as productivity goes, certain cultivars and tomato types have much higher yiedsl than other. if you prune plants, you usually get fewer tomatoes but the ones that remain are usually larger. Larger fruited varieties have fewer fruit than a cherry tomato. In general, black tomatoes are not good producers.
I like to check reviews from Dave's garden if there is a cultivar I am interested in. It usually lists what places the cultivars have grown in and how they performed for people. Some varieties you can check on Tatiana's tomato base under tomatoes in the informational database. Other information like flavor profile, disease resistance and productivity is sometimes mentioned.
I have a 365 day growing year so days to maturity don't matter to me. But to some people who have 120 growing days, they would prefer to grow plants with shorter maturity dates and better cold tolerance. For me, tomatoes live an average of 10 months, six months for determinates. In Hawaii, tomatoes and some other plants that are considered annuals elsewhere are technically perennial here, but disease usually kills them. What works for me may not work for you. That is why it actually is important to experiment to see what cultivars and techniques work best for you.
For me I do bury the stems up to the top 4 leaves when transplanting. But, the tomato will put out a full root system and go out of the pot into the ground before it is done, so hilling is not worthwhile for me. Pot size however, does matter and I use an 18 gallon container for tomatoes. Even if you bury more stem to produce
more roots, it does not matter much if the container is not big enough. It would not be worth doing in say a 5 gallon bucket unless you are going to let the roots go to ground.
As far as productivity goes, certain cultivars and tomato types have much higher yiedsl than other. if you prune plants, you usually get fewer tomatoes but the ones that remain are usually larger. Larger fruited varieties have fewer fruit than a cherry tomato. In general, black tomatoes are not good producers.