I can grow tomatoes. That is not the problem. But, I do have a problem with tomatoes that I know should taste good, tasting bland or tart.
I know one of the problems is that I water the containers every day. That can dilute the taste of the tomatoes and make them more bland.
I don't know why sweet tomatoes are tart instead.
I grow tomatoes in 18 gallon containers it does not matter if they are determinate or indeterminate.
The soil is peat lite, 50/50 peat perlite mix. with about 2-4 tablespoons of osmocote. Starter fertilizer is 2 cups vigoro citrus and avocado food.
Analysis NPK 6-4-6
Total N 6% 5.1% ammoniacal N, 0.9% urea
Available P P2O2 4%
Soluble potash 6%
Mg 1.0%, Boron 0.02%, Cu 0.05% Iron 21%, Mn 0.05%, Mo 0 .0005%, Zn 0.05%
I recently started to add to each 18 gallon container: 3 tablespoon dolomite lime, 2 tablespoons potassium sulfate 0-0-50
I have used citrus fertilizer as my main fertilizer because it has micros and slow N. I found that I don't need to have high numbers to get results and I can use this on almost all of my potted plants. Even before adding the dolomite, I only had BER problems on tomatoes that were not heat tolerant.
Side dressings vary from miracle grow water soluble once every couple of months, citrus food 2 tablespoons per pot every 3 months or so, this is not regular. Sometimes I will use other fertilizers I get when they are on sale or I use 10-20-20 which is the other fertilizer I buy in larger quantities. The starter may also get a handful of vermicompost if I have it available.
I don't normally see nutrient deficiencies in container tomatoes. My determinate tomatoes last about 7 months. Indeterminate tomatoes can last up to 10 months before they succumb to disease.
I water once daily. I grow mainly heat and disease tolerant varieties in 18 gallon containers so they will almost never wilt during the day. The roots of the larger tomatoes will come out of the drain holes and go into the ground. The soil does not dry out. I may or may not use plastic mulch. It depends. If I grow a secondary crop under the tomatoes of lettuce or bok choy I don't use the plastic mulch.
The varieties I have grown are red current, valentine. These are small sweet tomatoes. Red current is less sweet than it should be and valentine is tart unless it is very ripe. Then the birds will eat them too.
Larger tomatoes are o.k., they are selected for disease tolerance so I don't expect them to have really good taste. Most of them are red and round. I do think they should not be as bland as they are.
I know watering is part of the problem. How do I increase the watering interval to concentrate the tomato flavor without causing the tomatoes to wilt?
This mix is acidic because of all the sulfur and ammoniacal N. I have added the dolomite and potassium to increase the calcium and potassium but it won't have a great effect on pH in a pot over a few months. I don't test the potting soil. I could add more dolomite, but I am not seeing issues with deficiency when I use the synthetic fertilizer. I don't see a reason to add more. The nutrients are available so the pH is good enough to grow the plants and the plants are large and productive. I am not sure if raising the pH would help the flavor. I have tried chicken manure and compost (more than a handful) in the containers and that usually killed the seedlings, and the pots held too much water. So, if I use either chicken manure or compost it can only be a very small amount.
I only had problems with cucumbers using organic fertilizers causing severe potassium deficiencies and adding potash caused magnesium and zinc deficiencies later. It is the reason why I started adding small amounts of potassium and dolomite lime to the containers since that time.
I can grow tomatoes year round, but they do have to be disease and heat resistant for my hot humid climate. The plants grow and produce well, they just don't have the flavor they should. I don't grow too many tomatoes in the ground. Although, I do have wild currants all the time and they are actually sweeter. Only nematode resistant tomatoes can be in the ground and the plants are so large they would take up too much space in the main garden and that is why they are mainly in containers. Tomatoes in the main garden are also not as sweet as the wild ones that basically are neglected and don't get regular water and fertilizer. The pH of my soil is 6.2.
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applestar
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After trying many different varieties, I do think there are basic differences, but as you said, the selection is limited for you.
I’m guessing here, but growing smaller number of plants puts expectation/onus of greater production on each plant …. You said they are “too large”, “grow and produce well”. Would that tend to result in more application of fertilizer (Nitrogen in particular?)
I’m wondering if you might get different results if you refrain from N supplementation as much as feasible in a container.
Also, in terms of calcium, could you use slower leaching material like ground shells or maybe coral … trying to think of something more reasonably available for you…. For my own purposes, I would look for ground or pea gravel marble chips, chicken grit oyster shells, etc. I do also save all eggshells and shellfish shells from the kitchen for compost pile or direct use in the garden or watering can, making eggshell/crabshell vinegar etc.
Watering — my impression is that you get more frequent rain or at least moisture falling from the sky than I do. Is it possible you water more than they actually need? It’s important to sort of “train” them to subsist on less water. Have you tried growing them under rain shelter like they do in Japan? (I think @Van_Isle mentioned doing that in the Pacific Northwest (LOL excuse me “SW”
)
Hmm… alternatively, maybe use plastic “shower cap” mulch cover on the containers so you are controlling the water intake completely. Have you tried/considered fabric root pots in bottom watering tub or on “rain gutter/4” pipe” irrigation system?
I’m guessing here, but growing smaller number of plants puts expectation/onus of greater production on each plant …. You said they are “too large”, “grow and produce well”. Would that tend to result in more application of fertilizer (Nitrogen in particular?)
I’m wondering if you might get different results if you refrain from N supplementation as much as feasible in a container.
Also, in terms of calcium, could you use slower leaching material like ground shells or maybe coral … trying to think of something more reasonably available for you…. For my own purposes, I would look for ground or pea gravel marble chips, chicken grit oyster shells, etc. I do also save all eggshells and shellfish shells from the kitchen for compost pile or direct use in the garden or watering can, making eggshell/crabshell vinegar etc.
Watering — my impression is that you get more frequent rain or at least moisture falling from the sky than I do. Is it possible you water more than they actually need? It’s important to sort of “train” them to subsist on less water. Have you tried growing them under rain shelter like they do in Japan? (I think @Van_Isle mentioned doing that in the Pacific Northwest (LOL excuse me “SW”
) Hmm… alternatively, maybe use plastic “shower cap” mulch cover on the containers so you are controlling the water intake completely. Have you tried/considered fabric root pots in bottom watering tub or on “rain gutter/4” pipe” irrigation system?
Wow! The problem and the answers could very well be a PhD course and paper in horticulture. There are so many variables, my puny brain has difficulty getting around to it all.
I know tomatoes like a more acidic soil growing medium, but perhaps 6.2 pH is a little too acidic. Excess nitrogen in my experience tend to decrease flavor along with excess watering. And this is all the personal experience with container grown tomatoes: Nutrients need to be added every ten day to two weeks or the daily watering will flush out all the good things you add to the soil. Even with adding nutrients and having a perfect blend of growing medium, tomatoes grown in containers have smaller and less healthy plants, produce fewer and smaller fruits that are not as tasty (for me since I enjoy sweeter tomatoes) compared to those same varieties grown in-ground if the garden soil is in balance...soil tested regularly.
I have very little experience with the different inputs in your growing medium and the amounts used and the timing since my containers utilized commercially bagged soilless mixes and liquid plant food with very low N content...such as 5-30-30. Maybe that is why container grown tomatoes were not as good as those grown in the garden.
I know tomatoes like a more acidic soil growing medium, but perhaps 6.2 pH is a little too acidic. Excess nitrogen in my experience tend to decrease flavor along with excess watering. And this is all the personal experience with container grown tomatoes: Nutrients need to be added every ten day to two weeks or the daily watering will flush out all the good things you add to the soil. Even with adding nutrients and having a perfect blend of growing medium, tomatoes grown in containers have smaller and less healthy plants, produce fewer and smaller fruits that are not as tasty (for me since I enjoy sweeter tomatoes) compared to those same varieties grown in-ground if the garden soil is in balance...soil tested regularly.
I have very little experience with the different inputs in your growing medium and the amounts used and the timing since my containers utilized commercially bagged soilless mixes and liquid plant food with very low N content...such as 5-30-30. Maybe that is why container grown tomatoes were not as good as those grown in the garden.
I switched from 10-20-20 which is the basic fertilizer recommended for my area to 6-4-6 in the containers because my tomatoes were even bigger before. Of course, before TYLCV, I grew mostly indeterminate tomatoes. I switched because the 10-20-20 has fast nitrogen and the 6-4-6 has a combination of fast and slow nitrogen. The potassium is 0-0-50 and dolomite lime does not have nitrogen. I found out that higher numbers were not necessary.
I tested my garden and 6.2 is actually the higher end of the normal pH range for my my soil series which is a Wahiawa oxisol. It is a highly weathered soil that is high in iron (red clay), and high in aluminum. I don't usually supplement tomatoes until they are about 3 months old. Then they may get MG if I am fertilizing all the potted plants. The main garden only gets nitrogen and potassium. Except for a handful of vermicast which goes in the basic potting mix at the start, they don't get any supplemental fertilizer for the first three months.
The indeterminates are 8-10 ft tall and the determinates are within their growth potential of 4-5 ft tall. I am using 2 cups in the 18 gallon pot. That was a recipe. 2 cups synthetic or 3 cups organic. I could cut the starter fertilizer down by half a cup and see what it does. I know the fertilizer is all used up by the end of the plant's life because when I did reuse the soil, the next plant's growth was always retarded because there was not enough nutrients left in the spent soil to support it. I don't do much supplementing until after the first fruiting. But the flavor did not seem to matter much before or after supplementing. The size of the tomatoes later were smaller.
The red currant grows wild in my yard. I have not tested the soil in the yard for years, but when I did test it the pH was similar to the garden between pH 6.2-6.4. The wild tomatoes only get incidental water when I water the other plants in the yard and rain. Those tomato plants have been as big or smaller than the ones in the container but they are sweeter for the most part. They are never deliberately fertilized and they would probably only get MG the few times I use it and whatever fertilizer is runoff from the container plants. I don't fertilize the containers on a schedule either. I fertilize based on when I see new growth and if I remember to do it. Nothing regular. P.S. Because I water everyday, where there is soil in my yard, it is almost always wet as well between watering and rain.
I also had valentine in the main garden. It was about the same size as the one in the pot only it did not get stressed. The stressed one actually puts out more quantity of tomatoes. But, in both cases the tomatoes are on the tart side. I got these seeds from a tomato growing in the garden plot at the garden center. That tomato is growing mostly in compost in a raised bed. They don't test their soil. Their plant was smaller than mine, but they said they hardly fertilize anything. The garden is in a "desert", it gets 4 inches of rain a year. It also is 5-9 degrees warmer than where I am on average. That tomato was sweet. It might be like Sungold where it isn't really sweet until it is fully ripe. I haven't had a fully ripe one yet because the birds are getting those. It is colder in the mainland than it is here. Today will be a cool one with the max temp around 80 and the min around 59 degrees. Day length around 10 hours 54 min.
My main garden calcium is over 5000 ppm. I limed it 3 years ago. I still have most of that bag of lime. I also got dolomite lime in pint containers from the orchid club. I don't use dolomite in my orchids either. So, actually dolomite lime is the most practical thing for me to use because I already have it and I am only using a small amount in the containers. It will be years before I will have to use it in the main garden. I have added ground eggshells, but that takes years to break down so it would not be useful for the plants in containers.
I am thinking that there is too much water in the containers. While it does keep the plants growing strong and healthy, it probably is also the main reason for the blandness. I don't know if it also causes the tartness. At this time of the year especially, I am watering too much. Most of the plants can go 2-3 days before showing signs of stress. But, I do have some plants which will start to yellow and drop leaves after a day and a half. I do have a moisture meter. I probably should use it to determine how long I can go before the plants get into trouble. One of the tomatoes, I put in a mix that had more perlite and less peat moss. That tomato is alive but definitely bears the scars of having been stressed too much. It did not wilt, but it showed definite nutrient deficiencies probably from excess leaching since perlite cannot hold nutrients, and possibly from drying out faster than the other plants. I had not watered it for three days because it was "raining". However, it apparently does not rain enough unless I get 1/2 inch of rain in the rain gauge. 0.10 inch is not enough rain to hit a small target like a pot. I did try fabric pots, but since the plants are in the same pots all year, the fabric pots dried out too fast in summer. I don't put tomatoes in the fabric pots because the largest ones I have are only 5 gallons which is not enough volume for the tomatoes if I only water them once a day. I only grow an average of 3-5 tomatoes so I cage them and they are not pruned. Pruning would keep them smaller so they could go into a smaller container, and with less leaves they could use less water. In my climate the sun is very intense in summer, so more leaves are better to shade the fruit. When I get rain it is either light overnight rain of less than a tenth of an inch or a week of rain 24/7. The peatlite is a compromise so that the plants would drain well and tolerate everyday watering but it means I have to water even more in the summer. A hoop house would be nice to have. I just don't have anywhere to put it.
The humidity is normally very high, it is not practical to have a plastic roof on the plants because it would promote disease and it would not stop the yard from flooding and the pots are on weed mat, but still on the ground.
I tested my garden and 6.2 is actually the higher end of the normal pH range for my my soil series which is a Wahiawa oxisol. It is a highly weathered soil that is high in iron (red clay), and high in aluminum. I don't usually supplement tomatoes until they are about 3 months old. Then they may get MG if I am fertilizing all the potted plants. The main garden only gets nitrogen and potassium. Except for a handful of vermicast which goes in the basic potting mix at the start, they don't get any supplemental fertilizer for the first three months.
The indeterminates are 8-10 ft tall and the determinates are within their growth potential of 4-5 ft tall. I am using 2 cups in the 18 gallon pot. That was a recipe. 2 cups synthetic or 3 cups organic. I could cut the starter fertilizer down by half a cup and see what it does. I know the fertilizer is all used up by the end of the plant's life because when I did reuse the soil, the next plant's growth was always retarded because there was not enough nutrients left in the spent soil to support it. I don't do much supplementing until after the first fruiting. But the flavor did not seem to matter much before or after supplementing. The size of the tomatoes later were smaller.
The red currant grows wild in my yard. I have not tested the soil in the yard for years, but when I did test it the pH was similar to the garden between pH 6.2-6.4. The wild tomatoes only get incidental water when I water the other plants in the yard and rain. Those tomato plants have been as big or smaller than the ones in the container but they are sweeter for the most part. They are never deliberately fertilized and they would probably only get MG the few times I use it and whatever fertilizer is runoff from the container plants. I don't fertilize the containers on a schedule either. I fertilize based on when I see new growth and if I remember to do it. Nothing regular. P.S. Because I water everyday, where there is soil in my yard, it is almost always wet as well between watering and rain.
I also had valentine in the main garden. It was about the same size as the one in the pot only it did not get stressed. The stressed one actually puts out more quantity of tomatoes. But, in both cases the tomatoes are on the tart side. I got these seeds from a tomato growing in the garden plot at the garden center. That tomato is growing mostly in compost in a raised bed. They don't test their soil. Their plant was smaller than mine, but they said they hardly fertilize anything. The garden is in a "desert", it gets 4 inches of rain a year. It also is 5-9 degrees warmer than where I am on average. That tomato was sweet. It might be like Sungold where it isn't really sweet until it is fully ripe. I haven't had a fully ripe one yet because the birds are getting those. It is colder in the mainland than it is here. Today will be a cool one with the max temp around 80 and the min around 59 degrees. Day length around 10 hours 54 min.
My main garden calcium is over 5000 ppm. I limed it 3 years ago. I still have most of that bag of lime. I also got dolomite lime in pint containers from the orchid club. I don't use dolomite in my orchids either. So, actually dolomite lime is the most practical thing for me to use because I already have it and I am only using a small amount in the containers. It will be years before I will have to use it in the main garden. I have added ground eggshells, but that takes years to break down so it would not be useful for the plants in containers.
I am thinking that there is too much water in the containers. While it does keep the plants growing strong and healthy, it probably is also the main reason for the blandness. I don't know if it also causes the tartness. At this time of the year especially, I am watering too much. Most of the plants can go 2-3 days before showing signs of stress. But, I do have some plants which will start to yellow and drop leaves after a day and a half. I do have a moisture meter. I probably should use it to determine how long I can go before the plants get into trouble. One of the tomatoes, I put in a mix that had more perlite and less peat moss. That tomato is alive but definitely bears the scars of having been stressed too much. It did not wilt, but it showed definite nutrient deficiencies probably from excess leaching since perlite cannot hold nutrients, and possibly from drying out faster than the other plants. I had not watered it for three days because it was "raining". However, it apparently does not rain enough unless I get 1/2 inch of rain in the rain gauge. 0.10 inch is not enough rain to hit a small target like a pot. I did try fabric pots, but since the plants are in the same pots all year, the fabric pots dried out too fast in summer. I don't put tomatoes in the fabric pots because the largest ones I have are only 5 gallons which is not enough volume for the tomatoes if I only water them once a day. I only grow an average of 3-5 tomatoes so I cage them and they are not pruned. Pruning would keep them smaller so they could go into a smaller container, and with less leaves they could use less water. In my climate the sun is very intense in summer, so more leaves are better to shade the fruit. When I get rain it is either light overnight rain of less than a tenth of an inch or a week of rain 24/7. The peatlite is a compromise so that the plants would drain well and tolerate everyday watering but it means I have to water even more in the summer. A hoop house would be nice to have. I just don't have anywhere to put it.
The humidity is normally very high, it is not practical to have a plastic roof on the plants because it would promote disease and it would not stop the yard from flooding and the pots are on weed mat, but still on the ground.
I really enjoy the growing methods of places other than my back yard. So much to learn and try to understand. Thanks for all the information and keep it coming. Growing tomatoes in Nebraska and Iowa, where I came from before Nebraska is a world apart from Hawaii...and actually a world apart from Arkansas or Mississippi for that matter.
That really is the crux of it. Different places, different climates, pests, and soil types. I wish I could grow a tomato over a pound. I only got close 14 oz with a Brandywine. It is just hard to get large tomatoes with a short day. With longer periods of daylight your plants will grow faster and bigger than mine even with a shorter season.
Because I am in the tropical zone, not the temperate zone, temperate plants grow best in the fall and winter months when my temperatures are cooler. Gardeners here who try to grow lettuce, tomatoes, zucchini usually find out the hard way how tough it is to grow those crops in our summer heat and humidity with all of the pests and diseases peaking in summer as well.
Even on the mainland where temperatures get hotter than mine in the 100's, it can still drop 50 degrees overnight. Here there is maybe 10 degrees difference between day and night and about that much difference throughout the year. However, most temperate crops fade or stop producing once the temperatures exceed 85 degrees on a regular basis.
The average daily temp June-October is 88 degrees every day. Tomatoes that are not heat resistant, zucchini, and bell peppers will stop producing fruit until the temperature gets below 80. Even bush beans are less productive over 80 degrees. I switch to pole beans, heat tolerant cucumber and tomato varieties for summer. I grow long sweet peppers or hot peppers instead because they just do better and have better yields. I have a hard time growing bell peppers. I only get a decent sized pepper in April , but there are increasing pests and diseases at that time also. Heat tolerant tomatoes will still set up to about 90 degrees, while the non-heat tolerant varieties will either fail to set or get June drop and start dropping fruit. I am having that problem now with the TYLCV determinate tomatoes. They are disease resistant, but not heat resistant and they stop producing fruit in summer and start up again when the temperatures start to cool. It is why my determinate tomato surprised me. I did not expect it to last 7 months. It gave a large flush and then a second smaller flush. Then it just sat there during the hottest days of summer and then around late October, it flowered and produce a few more fruit. By then the fruit was smaller and the plant had more disease and pest problems because of its' age.
It does not really matter if I am growing tomatoes in containers or in the main garden in heavily amended soil with a clay base. The tomatoes are still bland or tart. The wild tomatoes are the sweetest. They are in the unamended clay usually around the container plants (literally its a weed) so they get the runoff from the containers and incidental water.
I plant in the larger containers because they are less subject to wilting and I don't want to have to water more than once a day.
Because I am in the tropical zone, not the temperate zone, temperate plants grow best in the fall and winter months when my temperatures are cooler. Gardeners here who try to grow lettuce, tomatoes, zucchini usually find out the hard way how tough it is to grow those crops in our summer heat and humidity with all of the pests and diseases peaking in summer as well.
Even on the mainland where temperatures get hotter than mine in the 100's, it can still drop 50 degrees overnight. Here there is maybe 10 degrees difference between day and night and about that much difference throughout the year. However, most temperate crops fade or stop producing once the temperatures exceed 85 degrees on a regular basis.
The average daily temp June-October is 88 degrees every day. Tomatoes that are not heat resistant, zucchini, and bell peppers will stop producing fruit until the temperature gets below 80. Even bush beans are less productive over 80 degrees. I switch to pole beans, heat tolerant cucumber and tomato varieties for summer. I grow long sweet peppers or hot peppers instead because they just do better and have better yields. I have a hard time growing bell peppers. I only get a decent sized pepper in April , but there are increasing pests and diseases at that time also. Heat tolerant tomatoes will still set up to about 90 degrees, while the non-heat tolerant varieties will either fail to set or get June drop and start dropping fruit. I am having that problem now with the TYLCV determinate tomatoes. They are disease resistant, but not heat resistant and they stop producing fruit in summer and start up again when the temperatures start to cool. It is why my determinate tomato surprised me. I did not expect it to last 7 months. It gave a large flush and then a second smaller flush. Then it just sat there during the hottest days of summer and then around late October, it flowered and produce a few more fruit. By then the fruit was smaller and the plant had more disease and pest problems because of its' age.
It does not really matter if I am growing tomatoes in containers or in the main garden in heavily amended soil with a clay base. The tomatoes are still bland or tart. The wild tomatoes are the sweetest. They are in the unamended clay usually around the container plants (literally its a weed) so they get the runoff from the containers and incidental water.
I plant in the larger containers because they are less subject to wilting and I don't want to have to water more than once a day.