Need tips/pointers for growing determinate tomatoes

[applestar]

I’m feeling like I’m not doing everything I should to grow determinate tomatoes. Is there things you do differently for determinates vs. Indeterminates — besides not or only minimally pruning ...just remove the bottom-most leaves to prevent splash-back.?


- All of my determinates are rapidly declining or have dried up and died

- a handful have produced very well, some produced a couple of trusses and that was it

- others are still loaded with green fruits, but are losing most or all but the topmost leaves to septoria/early blight — I don’t know how they will be able to ripen all those green fruits

- some of the stunted plants of the same variety are losing all of their leaves to disease without ever having set fruit — is the senility senescence based on time factor or day length and not individual maturity/ bearing fruit ?


.... At this point, I am vaguely wondering if Determinates are the varieties they are talking about when some gardeners recommend hitting the tomato seedlings with high nitrogen fertilizer in the beginning, then switch to low nitrogen ratio after floral trusses begin to appear — is it so you grow the biggest bushiest plant to support all of the fruits that come later ...?

[Vanisle_BC]

A-star I don't understand why that would happen. Admittedly the only determinates I grow are Latah. I grow them mainly because they're so early. But I don't treat them any different from my 10-12 vining varieties, except they're in cages, not trained up strings; and I don't prune them.

Maybe it's too obvious a question, but could you be letting your taller plants shade out the bush types? In my beds, even healthy plants growing north of their same-variety close neighbors are noticeably later in producing.

[PaulF]

The only determinates I have grown have been hybrids meant to be for commercial growing or for home canning purposes. They always have been much more susceptible to disease and I think those plants brought the diseases with them since I bought plants rather than growing out from seeds. Even the Celebritys I grew out for a friend were the first plants to die off.

I still think the growing method would be the same no matter the type or variety. A tomato is a tomato. Viny or bush should not make a difference. Keep the lower leaves off the ground, allow for air flow (for me that means staking or caging...I still cage shorter plants). I prune nothing but the bottoms.

Since determinate varieties are genetically engineered to produce fruit all at once the plant's survival instinct is to die earlier than indeterminate varieties. Maybe your plants shut down early for some reason. Could also be the shade as stated above. I still think once a determinate gets stressed diseases run rampant. They are short timers anyway.

[digitS']

se·nes·cence /səˈnesəns/ noun Biology

the condition or process of deterioration with age.
loss of a cell's power of division and growth.

Apple Star, you almost had me there .

Steve

[applestar]

Haha — thanks! I kept looking at my post thinking something was wrong and couldn’t find it — I guess it’s this gardener that’s experiencing senility.

[applestar]

Looking back at the earlier spring to summer weather, I guess what could have happened is that we had some serious recurring heat waves with actual in the high 90’s and heat index over 100°F — I wonder if the determinates had suffered blossom drop and/or fruit set issues due to bad timing as they started to bloom and each time they began to recover from the last heat wave?

The heatwave “gaps” are obvious along the indeterminate vines, but since they continue on, the impact is maybe not as noticeable?

[imafan26]

I have rarely grown determinates, but I have one now that I am really liking. I had to grow a determinate because they are the only ones that are resistant to tomato yellow leaf curl virus. I have not successfully grown tomatoes in the last three years because of the virus. In my climate with so many whiteflies, it is almost inevitable.

I finally was able to get Charger seeds this year. It has a good disease package with resistance to 3 races of fusarium, verticillium, alternaria, and grey leaf spot. It does not have resistance to nematodes or TMV, but I grow my tomatoes in 18 gallon pots of MG potting soil off the ground, so it is not a problem. It does well in a range of temperature conditions and it more cold tolerant than other tomatoes. The fruit is 7oz red slicer. The flesh is firm and it has a low acid good taste. It was fairly meaty. I did not even get powdery mildew on this tomato at all, which is almost unheard of. I did get some leaf miner damage and I had to remove the lower leaves because of early blight. I flood the 18 gallon container daily so I don't get any midday wilting but some of the fruit was dropped when the temps got over 90 degrees. It improved when the temperatures went down a little bit and with the addition of shade cloth.

Summer heat is likely a contributor to your troubles. It can get near a 100 degrees here in August, but that is mostly in the leeward districts that are nearly at sea level and where they have a lot of pavement. I usually don't get anywhere near that hot at my elevation. Unless tomatoes are heat tolerant, they will wilt at midday and fail to flower or set fruit. Usually, I grow the cherry tomatoes, sunsugar, currants, Julient, and sweet 100. They have good resistance to heat and diseases. Other tomatoes that do better in heat are Heatwave II (up to about 95 degrees), Sunchaser, Solar Flare, Sioux, Super Sioux, Arkansas Traveller, Sun Leaper, Heat Master, Big Beef, Florida 91, Porter and Porter Pink.

The Florida bred tomatoes can withstand the higher temperatures, but I did struggle to grow them because they don't all have resistance to the fungal diseases.

[digitS']

Weather stress and everything except the senility rap, seems sensible to me, AppleStar.

I have only grown two determinants for more than one or two seasons. Gold Nugget, because it is so blazing fast to maturity, and Legend. Legend doesn't behave much like other determinants in my garden. It has a fairly late maturity and so ripens fruit just a few days before frost. Lots of determinants are quick buuutt, too often the fruit that are just a few days late have serious problems. Gold Nugget is like that and it's frustrating to see the plants in something of a downward spiral, taking the fruit down with them.

So --- I look for early-maturing indeterminants and take a risk that the main crop may fall into the category of green-harvested, countertop tomatoes ripening after first frost. I don't want too many of those - preferring eggplant to green tomatoes and recognizing the loss of flavor in tomatoes that have to sit in the kitchen for weeks before ripening.

BTW - I haven't found a determinant with all that much flavor, either. That's also a primary reason for their absence in my garden.

Steve

[Gary350]

I try not to plant determinate tomatoes they die early there is nothing you can do. I like to plant new plants from seeds every 3 or 4 weeks all summer that replaces dead plants. Only thing I planted this year from seeds is 1" cherry tomatoes an right on time 4 plants are making ripe tomatoes while other plants are dead or dying. I planted beef steak today from seeds they should be making tomatoes first week of Oct.

[Vanisle_BC]

My 3 determinate 'Latah' plants, started from seed and set out in the open May 3, began producing July 8. To date I have harvested 3lb of smallish, very tasty tomatoes- and the plants are just now getting into their stride; quite heavy with green and turning fruits. Maybe they just like our temperate west coast climate.

[digitS']

My 3 determinate 'Latah' plants, started from seed and set out in the open May 3, began producing July 8. To date I have harvested 3lb of smallish, very tasty tomatoes- and the plants are just now getting into their stride; quite heavy with green and turning fruits. Maybe they just like our temperate west coast climate.

Well, I think that is IT, VanIsle.

Weather will stress. Different varieties have different responses.

Hey, it was in the 70's when I was growing Latah but there was another Boe/Idaho release: Benewah. It was kind of rambling, as I remember. Sand Hill has both. Benewah might be another you would like.

Steve

[Vanisle_BC]

Now I'm seeing lists of determinate tomatoes that include two I've often grown, but thought they were indeterminate, vining types; and treated them accordingly: Longkeeper and Principe Borghese. I think I've also seen them called semi-determinate. Must look more carefully at their growth pattern (I can be rather unobservant .)

'You learn something new every day' - if you're lucky and paying attention!

[applestar]

...it occurred to me while reading your replies that maybe the issue is that I’m not treating the INdeterminate as well as I should be, and the determinates are expressing the deterioration more while the indeterminates grimly hang on though they are suffering... and I’m not recognizing the signs

Thanks for all your inputs — I’ll keep everything you all said in mind and see what happens next year.

[Vanisle_BC]

...maybe the issue is that I’m not treating the INdeterminate as well as I should be, and the determinates are expressing the deterioration more

VERY doubtful. When it comes to neglect & downright mistreatment of plants, I claim the title; yet I have good success with Latah as well as the (semi?) determinate Longkeeper & Principe Borghese.

Then again, maybe what I experience as 'good success' is what others would see as a miserable, puny crop!

[TomatoNut95]

Most of the tomato varieties I grow are indeterminate.(unless it's a dwarf) However, my Ketchup tomato is determinate, and I don't have to do anything special to it other than it gets top heavy during producing and I give it a stake to lean on.

It took me awhile to teach myself what the big difference is between indeterminate and determinate. Indeterminate means the plant will get huge like my Beefsteak, and keeps producing as the plant grows taller throughout the season. Determinate types are short, and when the plant reaches its maxium height, it stops, produces and then dies. My Ketchup got finished off a month or so ago, whereas my Beefsteak only recently depleted.

[Vanisle_BC]

Just checked my records from last year: Latah produced from mid May to early Sept. but I didn't keep track of how much week-by-week. The week's crop at either end of the season may have been a single fruit .

[Gary350]

I have been searching online for the names of indeterminate tomatoes, I find lots of novels that talk about determinate vs indeterminate but only 1 articular that said, Beef Steak varieties are indeterminate tomatoes, good slicing tomatoes, good hot weather tomatoes, good in salads, soup, stew, etc., good early blight & late blight resistant, good hot weather tomato. I try to remember what I planted last year and they died early. This year my Amish Paste & Brandywine all died after making a few tomatoes I assume they must have been determinate tomatoes. Is there a list of indeterminate tomatoes? I don't know why anyone would want to grow plants than make a limited number of tomatoes then died that is wasted garden space.

[Vanisle_BC]

Just pulled my 3 determinate Latah plants after harvesting the last 1-1/4 lb today. Total yield 6.8 lb from 3 plants; cropped from July 8 to Aug 22: about 5-1/2 weeks.

These were treated same as the rest of my tomatoes: started from seed indoors under lights March 23 and set out in open raised bed cages, with drip irrigation, May 3. That's almost 3 weeks earlier than I usually do it, because of a very warm spring; the gamble paid off .

NOTE: my previous post stating 2018 production began in May was wrong. In fact I failed to record when the 2018 crop started. May is when the plants were first set out.

[TomatoNut95]

Most of the varieties I grow are determinate. I don't believe Brandywine is a determinate type. It grows pretty much like Beefsteak. I'm not too sure about Amish Paste's growing habit, I know Roma is determinate. My Ketchup tomato is all determinate. It produced, and gave out pretty quick. My Beefsteak gave me plenty of fruits for months longer.

[Gary350]

I learned Amish Paste & Roma are both determinate. I grew Amish paste from plants they grew about 15 tomatoes per plant an died. I grew Roma from seeds they made about 15 tomatoes per plant an died. I noticed determinate plants don't have time to grow BIG plants because they don't live long to grow big so these can be planted much closer together about 10" between plants to save garden space. You can also plant double rows or triple rows 10" between rows in cages to same space. Commercial growers plant millions of seeds sow them like grass seed in a 500 acre field when tomatoes are ripe a machine picks up all the plants and tomatoes, tomatoes go into a truck, plants get chopped an dumped back in the field. Determinate makes sense if you want 1 BIG 500 acre harvest all at once. If you have 50 fields all 500 acre each with determinate tomatoes you have a continuous flow of tomatoes to keep the canning factory open all year. I think most home gardeners want a few tomatoes on the kitchen table every day all summer, if so grow indeterminate tomatoes. If I grow determinate plants they are dead in 3 months by then it is 95 degrees too hot to grow anything else in that location without irrigation.

[TomatoNut95]

The Ketchup tomato I grow, claims to have been used by the Heinz company for their ketchup. I doubt they still use it, they probably use some type of hybrid now.

I don't grow Romas. I prefer slicer types for sandwiches. However, I may try one next year and put in a pot. Does a Roma stay around three feet in height to where it would fit in a 5-gal bucket?

[imafan26]

I have grown New Big Dwarf and it is a determinate with large beefsteak tomatoes. It is a cross between Ponderosa (Brandywine ancestor) and Dwarf Champion. I do like these tomatoes for their size and the flavor is pretty good, but the plant only gets a couple of feet tall and I am lucky to get 8-12 tomatoes from it. Larger tomatoes, Brandywine in particular, do not a produce a lot of tomatoes per plant anyway.

I did prefer the indeterminates for their productivity and very long growing season. Technically, indeterminate tomatoes can be perennial in my climate. What kills them is disease and not senescence. Determinates don't die that quickly, but once the top truss sets fruit, it won't produce any more flowers or fruit.

I was surprised at the longevity of Charger. It is very disease resistant, although not heat resistant. I thought the fruit would be produced all at once and then stop, but it has been about 5 months now and there are a couple of fruit still on it. I have not taken much care of it since I did not expect it to last this long. I stopped feeding it a 2-3 months ago. The leaves are getting some disease now and getting smaller. The fruit now is about half the size of those I got earlier. It has been a tough plant even in this unusually hot summer.

I do have another indeterminate red currant tomato which sprouted on its own in one of my rose pots. It got even less care but turns out to be naturally resistant to TYLCV. It is also stubbornly clinging to life and still has some fruit even though most of the vine is shriveled up. I did plant more seeds of it. It seems to be breeding true and the fruit is tiny but very sweet. I have not tried to save any of the Charger seeds because I know it is a hybrid. Just for kicks, I might try it to see it the progeny carries the TYLCV resistance.

I have chosen mostly indeterminate tomatoes in the past because I do keep tomatoes a long time. I think the longest lived one lasted about 9 months. The fruit quantity and size did decline from the peak as the plant had more issues with diseases. I have grown only a few determinate tomatoes. Amish paste, New Big Dwarf, Charger,Celebrity, Dwarf Champion (never again) were smaller and because of their size, they produced less total fruit. I did not treat them differently from the indeterminate tomatoes except for the size of the size of the cages. The determinate tomatoes are shorter lived because once all the flowers have been set, it has done its job and the plant stops producing leaves as well and declines. Indeterminates will continue to produce side branches and new leaves with additional flower trusses as long as disease does not get them, they can live a very long time because they never stop growing.

All tomatoes have their peak time with the most and best fruit. Indeterminates have a larger quantity because they are 2-3 times bigger than the determinate tomatoes. The cultivar determines the taste, vigor, and quality of the fruit. Climate determines what is possible. I have tried to grow some of Apple's tomatoes, but coyote in particular, did not have enough heat resistance to live to produce any fruit. I don't get cold enough even on the coldest days for cold to kill tomatoes so frost is not an issue.

[Gary350]

Does a Roma stay around three feet in height to where it would fit in a 5-gal bucket?

This is Burpee Roma Tomatoes that I planted from seeds this year. Plants grew almost 6 ft tall in my soil in cages. No fertilizer other than wood ash which is calcium & potassium. I never water plants except seeds until they germinate. It took 2 1/2 months for all the plants to made about 15 tomatoes that were all ripe at about the same time. Once I picked all the tomatoes the plants all died. I plant all my tomatoes 18" apart, Roma could have been planted closer 12" apart plants never had time to grow larger. There is probably over 100 seeds in this package I threw it in the trash yesterday. Good thing I saw those post I pulled package out of the trash and took these pictures. This was a $2 package of Walmart seeds. I sow 4 seeds directly into garden soil they germinate and grow 4 plants in a few days, 3 plants have to be pulled up. NOW I see on back of the package is says, compact determinate plants. Roma are small compared to other tomatoes I did not get enough Roma to do anything with them. I won't be planting these again they are wasted garden space for me. Too much time, work, anticipation, for only 15 tomatoes per plant. It would be interesting to sow 100 seeds in a 10ft square let plants grow all over each other in 76 days you should have 1500 tomatoes all at once. OK well, this package of seeds goes back into the trash.

[TomatoNut95]

Aww, please don't throw them away; I'll take them! I don't like seeing unwanted seeds going to the trash. Knowing they'll never have the chance to grow.