Newcomer to the forum and gardening, Problem with tomatoes?

[TomatoGirl]

I'm just going off what happened to me this year. I had a bit of trouble with my toms, and pruning them while they weren't doing so well wasn't good for them. If they are brown, they will fall off anyway so you can take those off. But I had some leaves I was going to prune while they were recovering and decided to leave them and they grew back green. If they are deffo dead, take them off, But if they are just a bit yellow, leave them and see what happens in a couple of days. The plants are really small still, so you don't want to take off too many leaves as they need the leaves to grow.

[DarkRider2k3]

They're looking much better. Just leave them alone now to recoup. I wouldn't bother pruning anything off until they are fully recovered. You will be surprised at which leaves will go back to being green. You might end up losing a couple of leaves, but not much. Is your fertiliser JUST nitrogen or does it include anything else?

This is the stuff we used:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milorganite- ... lsrc=aw.ds

We also have Jobe's Organics All-Purpose fertilizer.

My only other addition to this, and it's already been mentioned, is that I really think these bags aren't going to work out for you. Not only for drainage issues, but also for their size, and heat transmission. I predict that they'll need upsized once your plants get larger. I also don't think that the roots wil stay cool.

Are the bags designated grow bags?

These are wal-mart cloth bags. I was told that they are pretty much the same as grow bags, and would be fine. They hold 6-7 gallons of soil, and I did test them for drainage (forgot to mention that and they do seem to drain pretty well).

I'm just going off what happened to me this year. I had a bit of trouble with my toms, and pruning them while they weren't doing so well wasn't good for them. If they are brown, they will fall off anyway so you can take those off. But I had some leaves I was going to prune while they were recovering and decided to leave them and they grew back green. If they are deffo dead, take them off, But if they are just a bit yellow, leave them and see what happens in a couple of days. The plants are really small still, so you don't want to take off too many leaves as they need the leaves to grow.

There is one set of leaves that is definitely dead, so I'll remove them. The others I'll wait to see if they perk up.

Thanks again guys for helping!!

[Peter1142]

That fertilizer is not good for containers. You should get a water soluble fertilizer. It is difficult to be organic in containers.

If the leaves are completely yellow or turning brown, they aren't going to recover and aren't helping the plant... just cut those off IMO.

[DarkRider2k3]

which one isn't good for containers? both of them?

[applestar]

I'm not very trusting of using fertilizer that is described as for lawns, trees and flowers when it comes to food plants even if it says "organic". milorganite -- I have a negative impression of it but can't remember why. Does it say it's made with bio-solids-- water treatment plant/sewer sludge?

Jobs at least specs for vegetables doesn't it?

[Peter1142]

I was referring to the first one. I am not familiar with jobe's. I am not familiar with organic fertilizer in containers at all so maybe someone else can give you a recommendation. You do definitely want a balanced fertilizer, with 3 numbers fairly even (NPK ratio), as well as micronutrients. No potting mix is going to have enough nutrients to grow full sized plants. They need a balanced regular meal.

[DarkRider2k3]

I'm not very trusting of using fertilizer that is described as for lawns, trees and flowers when it comes to food plants even if it says "organic". milorganite -- I have a negative impression of it but can't remember why. Does it say it's made with bio-solids-- water treatment plant/sewer sludge?

Jobs at least specs for vegetables doesn't it?

jobs does spec for veggies, but not sure about milorganite... it doesn't spec for veggies, but it was the only one I could find was a nitrogen fertilizer... well at least at the time (it has a higher nitrogen percentage then Jobes showed). And it definitely seemed to have helped them... Hope I didn't screw up buying it!

Also didn't see anything on it at first but on the website I did see this:

Milorganite is composed of heat-dried microbes that have digested the organic material in wastewater. Milorganite is manufactured by the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District. The District captures waste water from the metropolitan Milwaukee area, including local industries such as MillerCoors. This water is then treated with microbes to digest nutrients that are found in it. Cleaned water is then returned to Lake Michigan. The resulting microbes are then dried, becoming Milorganite fertilizers. The Milorganite program is one of the world’s largest recycling efforts.

so...

[DarkRider2k3]

I was referring to the first one. I am not familiar with jobe's. I am not familiar with organic fertilizer in containers at all so maybe someone else can give you a recommendation. You do definitely want a balanced fertilizer, with 3 numbers fairly even (NPK ratio), as well as micronutrients. No potting mix is going to have enough nutrients to grow full sized plants. They need a balanced regular meal.

The NPK ratio of Jobe's is 4-4-4

Calcium is 8%, Magnesium is 0.5%, and Sulfur is 1.4%

https://www.walmart.com/ip/21782945?wmls ... 16&veh=sem

[Peter1142]

Yes that means it is 4% nitrogen. But it also looks like a slow release granular fetilizer, not a water soluble fertilizer. The problem with those kinds of fertilizers is that pots don't have the same fungal colonies bugs etc that soil does to break it down. They so have some soluble fertilizer though so now that you gave some I would wait a week or two at least since your plants are showing signs of improvement and you don't want to burn them.

Organic fertilizer is usually made with animal products if not human waste. Ground up bone, feathers, fish, blood... none of it is appetizing. Don't eat it.

[Lindsaylew82]

I actually really like blood meal as a quick(er) release organic source of Nitrogen. Even in pots!

And like I previously said, if the leaves are yellow or brown, cut them away. My early plants usually get a prune job of 50%or more, right when they go in the ground. If the future growing leaves show ANY sign of issue, they get culled as well. This isn't going to hurt your plants, and will help to concentrate growth to healthy tissue versus tissue that is already past healthy. weak parts of plant and weak plants encourage pests and disease. I generally have palm shaped tomato "trees" until they get to be about 6 weeks old! They'll be fine if you prune them...25+ years of experience, and I've never over pruned a tomato plant.

[imafan26]

If the leaves are old cut them away. If the leaves are young and yellowing then you need more fertilizer. If you want to stay organic you will have to hit them with blood meal, fish emulsion, and kelp. You will have to repeat the fish emulsion weekly.

7 gallons of soil is only good for a small tomato. Indeterminates will need about 10-15 gallons of soil and the roots will still want to go into the ground.

If the plants are stressed for too long they will stop growing and anything that stunts the growth of a fast growing plant usually means that plant will have a difficult time catching up. Once it get to its' mature state (flowers) it won't be doing much growing. If you cannot fix it soon, you may not get a good result.

[DarkRider2k3]

lol I had a long post I was going to write out but lost it .

Anyways a few things/questions:

1. What should we use for containers? I have a few large buckets downstairs, but would that work? I'd be afraid of heat (I've read that heat can be a problem with buckets). Would a kiddie pool (like what we have for our carrots, spinach, and lettuce) work? Or should I just transplant them directly into the ground? Also should I wait until they are back to thriving before I do a transplant of them?

2. What food do you recommend then for them?

3. I did prune those leaves off last night, and the flowers on the one are opening up now. They do look a lot better.

[TomatoGirl]

lol I had a long post I was going to write out but lost it .

Anyways a few things/questions:

1. What should we use for containers? I have a few large buckets downstairs, but would that work? I'd be afraid of heat (I've read that heat can be a problem with buckets). Would a kiddie pool (like what we have for our carrots, spinach, and lettuce) work? Or should I just transplant them directly into the ground? Also should I wait until they are back to thriving before I do a transplant of them?

2. What food do you recommend then for them?

3. I did prune those leaves off last night, and the flowers on the one are opening up now. They do look a lot better.

I grow my tomatoes in containers every year for the past 3 years. Never used anything over 8 gallons. While I am sure you . would get bigger plants and more tomatoes in bigger containers, I have had great success in 5 gallon buckets. These are the things you have to remember.
Regularly feed with a balanced fertiliser
Make sure they are getting enough water
Don't let them sprawl all over the place, get some good stakes and tie them to it for support
Do give them organic matter such as compost tea and fish agra/emulsion

I always plant more plants than I think I will need because of the lower production of tomatoes, but I find if it is done properly you will get a great crop. I had a ton of seedling this year so I gave some away. Most people planted in the ground. I have way more flowers and baby tomatoes than anyone else.
So when someone tells you, you can't grow in 5 gallon pots that's a load of rubbish. I do it every year very successfully. You just have to do it right.
How about you repot your tomatoes in 5-10 gallon pots, all except 2 which you keep in the bags. See how they do in comparison. They may do as well or not, but at least you will know. You just have to find what works for you.
I posted the fertiliser I use already in this thread. Its water soluble and my tomatoes are loving it.
Good luck!!

[Lindsaylew82]

Best case scenario...? Put them babies in the ground! If you've got ground space, and it grows grass well, it'll grow tomatoes well! Just mulch around them! They will be SO HAPPY!

[DarkRider2k3]

Best case scenario...? Put them babies in the ground! If you've got ground space, and it grows grass well, it'll grow tomatoes well! Just mulch around them! They will be SO HAPPY!

Anything special I should do when planting them? I was thinking with it being nice out today (and not scorching hot) I could plant them today.

[DarkRider2k3]

Best case scenario...? Put them babies in the ground! If you've got ground space, and it grows grass well, it'll grow tomatoes well! Just mulch around them! They will be SO HAPPY!

Anything special I should do when planting them? I was thinking with it being nice out today (and not scorching hot) I could plant them today.

[imafan26]

I usually use 18 gallon muck buckets and put holes in them. They are easier to find than pots that size. They will last a couple of years. In the larger containers I have fewer issues with water stress. I also grow very big plants and 5 gallon buckets are more suitable for the determinates that don't get very big. I use MG potting soil, but I use synthetic fertilizer.

If you put them in the ground they should be better, but the ground also needs to be prepared with compost and fertizer. Organic fertilizers takes weeks to deliver and the plants need nutrition now. So you still have to give them a fast release fertilizer. The synthetics will be available to the plants immediately, but if you want to be organic you need to be using the blood meal, and fish emulsion. You can also use compost or manure tea. You should probably give them fish emulsion weekly.

[DarkRider2k3]

I grow my tomatoes in containers every year for the past 3 years. Never used anything over 8 gallons. While I am sure you . would get bigger plants and more tomatoes in bigger containers, I have had great success in 5 gallon buckets. These are the things you have to remember.
Regularly feed with a balanced fertiliser
Make sure they are getting enough water
Don't let them sprawl all over the place, get some good stakes and tie them to it for support
Do give them organic matter such as compost tea and fish agra/emulsion

I always plant more plants than I think I will need because of the lower production of tomatoes, but I find if it is done properly you will get a great crop. I had a ton of seedling this year so I gave some away. Most people planted in the ground. I have way more flowers and baby tomatoes than anyone else.
So when someone tells you, you can't grow in 5 gallon pots that's a load of rubbish. I do it every year very successfully. You just have to do it right.
How about you repot your tomatoes in 5-10 gallon pots, all except 2 which you keep in the bags. See how they do in comparison. They may do as well or not, but at least you will know. You just have to find what works for you.
I posted the fertiliser I use already in this thread. Its water soluble and my tomatoes are loving it.
Good luck!!

I didn't respond to this, but I do think I'll keep 2 or 3 in the bags to see just how they do. They do look better each day so I'm happy to see that!

I usually use 18 gallon muck buckets and put holes in them. They are easier to find than pots that size. They will last a couple of years. In the larger containers I have fewer issues with water stress. I also grow very big plants and 5 gallon buckets are more suitable for the determinates that don't get very big. I use MG potting soil, but I use synthetic fertilizer.

If you put them in the ground they should be better, but the ground also needs to be prepared with compost and fertizer. Organic fertilizers takes weeks to deliver and the plants need nutrition now. So you still have to give them a fast release fertilizer. The synthetics will be available to the plants immediately, but if you want to be organic you need to be using the blood meal, and fish emulsion. You can also use compost or manure tea. You should probably give them fish emulsion weekly.

Can I use the soil I have in the bags when I replant them? Would that help them with their nutrition since it already has been fertilized?

[Lindsaylew82]

I disagree that it takes weeks. You may have to feed them something like blood meal, but some of my best gardens have been fresh tills where I've had to do very little... My big beds are years old now, and still require additions... If it grows great grass, it'll grow great tomatoes. Even if you tilled it up yesterday.

[applestar]

You have to be careful recommending stuff because there are always 'but' --

Bottom line, indeterminate tomatoes grow to over 5 feet -- even 7 to 10 feet where temperatures are ideal. 3-4 feet in diameter. You can see how a 5 gal bucket would be tiny relative to the top growth. To support all that foliage and fruits, the root system will completely fill the container and the potting mix will not have ANY extra capacity to hold reserve water. Where it's hot, there no way you can go without watering twice a day -- for the day's worth and night's worth of water. Skip once and the plant will start to wilt, repeated stresses will definitely cause Blossom End Rot in susceptible varieties and even some that normally don't get them.

You will need a good automated watering system of some kind if you cant be out there watering and caring morning and evening. Maybe if you don't have that many plants, it wouldn't be a hardship.

Cherry tomatoes generally can't get too much smaller, though they will suffer a % of size loss, but larger fruited varieties will show significant fruit size reduction when grown in too small containers. You might not realize it if you haven't grown them to their potential before. And you might be OK with it, but they will not be at their best. So you will get 2 to 2-1/2 inch diameter fruits when you could be getting 3 to 4 inch diameter fruits. That sort of thing.

NOW on the other hand, generally speaking, if you live in colder areas with cool night temps, tomatoes will grow slower and plants won't get as big. And maybe not as many fruits per plant either. Growing in containers means warmer root zone which helps them grow faster.

[Peter1142]

If you have a place to stick them in the ground I agree that would be best! Much easier to grow that way. You will still need fertilizer for best results and mulch is a good idea. Unless you live in Arizona or something and the soil is terrible. Which probably wouldn't be the case if it is growing great grass.

[DarkRider2k3]

So I was digging up the area I had for the tomatoes, and I noticed this in the soil:



Is that bad? I've never seen this bluish green... rock? dirt?

[applestar]

Most likely Copper or what's the other metal... Bronze? Any sign of the object itself? It could have been pennies or pipe.


...did you say where you lived? Around here, you would find clay subsoil in that color, but yours really looks like just that little bit.

[DarkRider2k3]

Most likely Copper or what's the other metal... Bronze? Any sign of the object itself? It could have been pennies or pipe.


...did you say where you lived? Around here, you would find clay subsoil in that color, but yours really looks like just that little bit.

Yeah. McDonald, PA (right on the edge of Pittsburgh and Washington PA).

Will that hurt anything?

[Lindsaylew82]

That's strange... is it crunchy? rocky? mineral-y?

I would think copper as well. I wonder if copper sulfate or other copper based products can break down like that? I think copper sulfate is already oxidized, but I'm no chemist...

It's not near a septic tank is it?

[DarkRider2k3]

That's strange... is it crunchy? rocky? mineral-y?

I would think copper as well. I wonder if copper sulfate or other copper based products can break down like that? I think copper sulfate is already oxidized, but I'm no chemist...

It's not near a septic tank is it?

No septic tank is in the front of the house.

This is like a rock.. it came out of the ground like a rock.. and was easily crushed into a powder in my hand.

Either way I got them planted in the ground.. I'll post pics soon of them (I'll take some shortly). Surprised the forum was down so long!

[applestar]

I have no idea if this is relevant, but this came up in a search :

Copper Sulfate Hoof Baths and Copper Toxicity in Soil — Dairy — Penn State Extension
https://extension.psu.edu/animals/dairy/ ... ty-in-soil


Copper sulfate hoof baths are used on many dairies in Pennsylvania as part of their overall hoof hygiene program. On most dairies spent hoof baths are dumped into the manure pit or lagoon so the copper ultimately gets spread on production ground with the manure.

[TomatoGirl]

I don't get tiny fruit in my 5 gallon pots, so I must be doing something right. My plants to grow to about 6 feet, but if you sucker them, you don't get tons of sprawling foliage and wild plants. Maybe that's it? I don't know. But I have managed to get some decent fruit. I am happy with my results. But this is the only way I get to grow tomatoes, so for me its is definitely better than nothing.
I wish I had a lovely big raised bed garden where I could do crop rotation. But I am pretty limited where I am. It also doesn't get above 30-35C during the days here and the nights are generally mild and lovely. So maybe it's just good growing conditions for these tomatoes and they don't mind not having as much soil.

[DarkRider2k3]

I didn't mind growing them in the ground. We honestly were debating on doing it that way from the start. Originally from searches and other friends is how we decided on the bags. They probably could have survived and thrived, but we just decided to plant them in the ground anyways. Since the consensus was that it was the most beneficial for them in-ground, we just did it anyways.

Here they are as of tonight, alongside a pepper plant we had that we put next to them since we had the room (sorry about the night picture.. couldn't get one earlier so it's got flash.. will post better pics tomorrow):

[Lindsaylew82]

Very nice!

I would expect a bit of transplant shock for the next week or so. I wouldn't feed them until you find out what your soil can do for them. Right now, they will be concentrating efforts on roots.

I expect they'll green up some once they recover from the transplant, and they look like they are in a GREAT location!

[DarkRider2k3]

Very nice!

I would expect a bit of transplant shock for the next week or so. I wouldn't feed them until you find out what your soil can do for them. Right now, they will be concentrating efforts on roots.

I expect they'll green up some once they recover from the transplant, and they look like they are in a GREAT location!

They actually look a LOT greener then these pics show. I honestly think they look greener then they did in the last pics I took (before transplant). These night pics do them no justice so tomorrow after work I'll take more pics.

[Lindsaylew82]

Oh! And a warm welcome to the I-Plant-Everything-Too-Close Club!

[applestar]

You've been BUSY! Looks like you put down mulch, too?

It really IS easier to let Mother Nature take up some of the workload -- I gave up on growing in containers for a long time when I was commuting 1 hour each way to work because it was too hard to keep up with. More leeway and buffer in watering and fertilizing since if container growing medium is depleted, then the plants have no way to get more.

Good luck! You'll be eating those 'mater sandwiches soon!

[DarkRider2k3]

You've been BUSY! Looks like you put down mulch, too?

It really IS easier to let Mother Nature take up some of the workload -- I gave up on growing in containers for a long time when I was commuting 1 hour each way to work because it was too hard to keep up with. More leeway and buffer in watering and fertilizing since if container growing medium is depleted, then the plants have no way to get more.

Good luck! You'll be eating those 'mater sandwiches soon!

It wasn't that hard for me lol. We have been busy though! And yup put down mulch on the top to protect them/keep weeds out.

[Peter1142]

They will sit there for a while before taking off. They need time to adjust and grow roots.

[DarkRider2k3]

So here there are as of yesterday (July 2). Took these pictures that morning before heading off to work.

2 of the plants have flowers, with one of them having about 4. The other only has 1.

Still in transplant shock. No improvement, but also not getting much worse. Just a waiting game for now it seems:

Tomato 1:



Tomato 2:



Tomato 3:



Tomato 4:



Tomato 5:



Tomato 6:



Pepper:

[applestar]

IME after about a week they are ready to get back to growing their tops and in about 10 days they will take off. Just give them sufficient water (not too much, not too little)

[DarkRider2k3]

IME after about a week they are ready to get back to growing their tops and in about 10 days they will take off. Just give them sufficient water (not too much, not too little)

sufficient as in making sure the soil is moist, but not soaked? I've been sticking my fingers a few inches down in the soil to see how "wet" it is? It seems like the in ground soil doesn't dry up near as fast as above ground planting (which I knew going into would happen).

Also how often should I be feeding them in ground? Jobe's says to feed them every 8 weeks but that seems like a lot of time between feedings?

[Lindsaylew82]

Before you feed them, I would see what your soil can do for them. You may be surprised what your dirt has to offer. I would wait on ferts right now. Reevaluate in 10 days, when plant usually start running. Then we can help you reevaluate!

[DarkRider2k3]

Before you feed them, I would see what your soil can do for them. You may be surprised what your dirt has to offer. I would wait on ferts right now. Reevaluate in 10 days, when plant usually start running. Then we can help you reevaluate!

Haha yeah I didn't mean right now. I know to wait for now. Especially since they are adjusting to their new home .