User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Now that these are blooming, I'm practicing making tomato crosses again. I REALLY need the practice since so far, only one of the various practices ever set fruit. :roll: :oops:

I practiced emasculating Whippersnapper and Maglia Rosa two days ago, and hung a marker on an "indicator flower bud" At 36 hrs, the indicator bud had barely started to open, so I waited a couple more hours and saw that the blossom looked about ready, so I collected some pollen on my iPhone 8)
image.jpg
So far I've pollinated these twice. The indicator blossom photo was taken the 2nd time.
Whippersnapper was pollinated with a less variegated Faelan's First Snow (the more variegated plant kicked the bucket a while ago or I would have used that one).
Maglia Rosa was pollinated with Green Gail (large fruited). I want to do a MR x Coyote, but I can wait to do that later, and I wanted to use pollen from the outside plants while they are still blooming and available.

I went outside and tried emasculating some Matt's Wild Cherry buds and was thoroughly reminded why I haven't been able to do this outside in the summer. It's a close, painstakingly frustrating work and mosquitoes biting and bumblebees trying to muscle in to land on open tomato blossoms under my face do not help. :x. I need to improve and be able to work faster so the task in itself is no big deal :|
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Pollinate Tomato Varietie

I have this aversion to repetitive tasks... I do believe I'm procrastinating to avoid organizing my seed inventory. :roll:

This is Coyote... Stamen are goofy looking. -came out that way when anther cone was opened- Is this normal? I kind of think they look a little iffy.

i pollinated them with Manö first time, but it didn't have enough left in the single available blossom to pollinate it second time, and since there was extra FFS pollen left over on the opposite corner of the iPhone, I went ahead and put some on.
image.jpg
...I emasculated another truss of Maglia Rosa on plant #1 a little while ago. This time got three good ones and didn't ruin any. ;)
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Pollinate Tomato Varietie

AppleStar said: "It's a close, painstakingly frustrating work and mosquitoes biting and bumblebees trying to muscle in to land on open tomato blossoms under my face do not help. :x. I need to improve and be able to work faster so the task in itself is no big deal :|"

Oh, you may have more patience than I do, AppleStar! I am absolutely sure you have much smaller hands.

I tried this last year with Bloody Butcher and Kimberley. They didn't want to bloom at the same time! The plants were in too small of pots and less than robust. I remedied that in 2014 then chickened out on trying. They still didn't want to bloom at the same time.

Last year, I waited a little late, then tried to move pollen onto 4 Kimberley blossoms I'd emasculated the day before. Or, thought I'd emasculated. I used scissors. Wrong!

One bloom produced no seed. The others had Kimberley seedlings - self-pollenated. Gah! I had to move the mother plant indoors and keep it going ever so long just to get the fruit to ripen from attempting the crossing in August.

How is this gonna work for you? It's already late September!

Steve
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Pollinate Tomato Varietie

Oh c'mon! DigitS' are you telling me you are NOT Growing Winter Indoor Tomatoes this year?

...you know how I obsess when I start a NEW PROJECT! -- right?
Here are the ones I've been emasculating and pollinating/plotting to pollinate so far. I've settled on +38 hrs for estimating when the emasculated blossoms are receptive. Blane said noon-2PM and 5-6PM are good times to pollinate with once being sufficient but he sometimes applies 2nd time for insurance. Clumsy as I am with the process right now, I'm afraid of damaging the stamen so I'm limiting to two applications after trying three times with the first one.
image.jpg
I'm trying to take pollen from the few remaining tomato plants outside that are still/reinvigorated in the cooler fall weather and are blooming. This morning I obtained pollen from a still not positively ID'd but possible Yellow Brandywine volunteer and pollinated the 2 emasculated Matt's Wild Cherry which is outside but should be able to ripen before frost and the 3 emasculated Whippesnapper #2 in an 11" hanging basket inside. If successful, either cross should yield interesting progeny.

I have come to realize that it's better to practice on crosses with blossoms that are AVAILABLE rather than planning a cross. I've had the same frustration with intended blossoms either not opening at the same time, or even not having any fresh donor blossoms for pollen just during the 12 hr or so period when the emasculated blossoms are receptive. :roll:

I will make well thought out and planned INTENTIONAL crosses later when I have more expertise. For now, I'll cross whatever I can and hope for the best. :>
Last edited by webmaster on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Updated the table with this PM's entries.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

These are the tools I'm using right now:
image.jpg
I start by using the metal cheese/hors d'oeuvres server to pick at and open/lift up flower petals and the anther cone and to ply them off starting near the calyx. It has a convenient tiny hook at the sharp tip which I think is intended to keep food from slipping off. I've heard that some people use fly-tying bodkin.

I may replace these cheap tweezers (came in a student dissection kit, I believe) with micro tip hemostats if I can find them -- I'm thinking of looking in fly fishing tools. I usually use the scissors to clip off (or mangle) the last petal and anther cone section that almost always refuse to pull off.

...and the calyces which are useful for holding the flower bud steady, but they tend to either all pull off and leave me with nothing safe to hold (in which case I try hold the calyx base of the bud not the stem so as not to damage it) ...or leave one sturdy calyx that provided a great steadying hold, then absolutely refuse to come off and need to be clipped off with the scissors. :roll:

Here are some more tips from this newbie who is finding the task to be very exacting and needing optimum conditions to work at it at all :oops:

It's important to remember how the tomato easily breaks off at the jointed pedicel (a joint in the stem of the fruit). That joint is there though not readily visible at this stage, and if you bend the flower bud stem upwards or other certain angles, the blossom will break right off.

So it's best to find a blossom cluster at a convenient height and angle. That's been an issue outside too -- often the blossom clusters are too high, too low, too far inside the vines with other branches and leaves in the way, etc. Container plants can be turned, set on a work surface, etc. to present the buds at the right stage right where you can see and handle them.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

It isn't until I began handling the tomato flowers that I realized how tiny they are.

My relationship with those flowers in the past was being careful I didn't break them when harvesting the fruit and removing them from the plants in the spring when I set the tomatoes out into their new garden homes. These actions had nothing to do with the internal flower parts!

What use do you have for the toothbrush?

Steve
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

The electric toothbrush is for vibrating entire/un emasculated blossoms to produce pollen. This one vibrates and makes a hum rather than a grinding whir like some of the other ones with rotating brush do.

The iPhone to hold under the blossom and catch the pollen and to "serve" the pollen to the stamen of the emasculated blossoms.

These cherry sized tomato blossoms are even tinier :roll: ...Maybe practice with larger blossoms from larger fruited varieties first?
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Look! LOOK! :-()
image.jpg
image.jpg
:()

Assuming I wasn't too late in emasculating these blossoms (then it might have self pollinated) those look like successes. 8)

...of course the volunteer PL plant that I THOUGHT might be Yellow Brandywine is looking like it probably isn't, but I don't care. :wink:
image.jpg
with the green shoulders and striping, it might possibly be
Spudakee (potato leaf version of Cherokee Purple)....
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Hey! Good for you, AppleStar.

:)

digitS'
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

One thing that naively occurred to me, while I was still thinking that hybridizing might be easy, was that I could do the cross each year.

If variety A and variety B were both welcome in my garden each year, hybrid AB may be welcome, also.

Maintaining the parent lines would not be a problem. I'd want those plants anyway. The offspring would benefit from F1 hybrid vigor and might show additional valuable traits.

Like I say, this was before the fail. This year, I have learned of a technique some use. Remove the petals and anthers then "attach" the pollen source flower. I believe a twist tie or thread would hold it. The technique would save the bother of moving and applying pollen and subsequent bagging. I understand that it is not quite as successful but does work.

Steve
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

:-()

There's a whole another level of excitement when the crossed fruits begin to blush!
image.jpg
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Image
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Thanks, digitS :D

As for the genetics and basic concept of what kind of progeny these may produce, this is always a good guide: https://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html

...you may have seen it before. :wink:

...it occurs to me I may have to re-think my tomato garden plans for next year, now that I have these fruits maturing with seeds for all kinds of exciting possibilities :()
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Looks like I didn't keep up with this thread. At some point in the near future, I'll post a summary/report of successes and failures, but here's an example of hoped-for cross that didn't make it -- the TRM pressure overtook these blossoms that appeared to have taken but their development had been delayed while other fruits were developing... :(
image.jpg
But I harvested this one -- a (Whippersnapper x Faelen's First Snow (less variegated))
image.jpg
Other fruits that were developing already in previous photo(s) have been harvested also. :()

...also wherever the tag shows YBW(?), the PL volunteer plant turned out to be not Yellow Brandywine but some kind of a (very tasty) pink beefsteak -- speculating it might have been Stump of the World, but no way to tell for sure.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

The two Maglia Rosa crosses that survived and matured:
image.jpg
...again, the "YBW?" written on the tag was a mis- identification and I'm thinking/hoping it might have been Stump of the World. It was at least a Potato Leaf plant with PINK (clear skin red flesh) beefsteak shaped fruit and excellent flavor. :D These are not straight one x one crosses since I was just practicing, and in order to have plenty of pollen to apply, I also used pollen from othe varieties in bloom.

RED TAG = Maglia Rosa #1 (WWL) x (Stump of the World? HBR + Faelan's First Snow less variegated + Manö)
BLUE TAG = Maglia Rosa #1 (WWL) x (Zluta Kytice + Coyote + Matt's Wild Cherry + Faelan's First Snow lv)
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

I don't have their pictures, but the Whippersnapper crosses that produced fruits were:
Whipper Snapper #1(WWLw) x Faelan's First Snow less variegated
Whipper Snapper #2(WWLw) x Stump of the World? HBR
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomatoes/Peppers

It turns out cross breeding peppers is not that different. You just have to pay attention to the species. It so happens I have Bolivian Rainbow starting to bloom and I'm hoping to attempt crossing it with my supervariegated Fish pepper.

Here's my first attempt at emasculating the blossoms, which went pretty well -- not that different from tomato blossoms. ...and there are these Fish pepper flower buds that just may bloom in time to be the pollen donor.
image.jpg
image.jpg (41.41 KiB) Viewed 3271 times
...but if I'm understanding this process correctly, IDEALLY, I should use the Fish pepper as the mother for better outcome, so when this plant starts to bloom more profusely, I'll try to cross them the other way with Bolivian Rainbow as the pollen donor :()
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Am I right, AppleStar, the pepper flowers are not closed? There were no petals to remove.

The plants must be comfortable with the light to have bloomed.

Without insect pollinator interference, crossing might be a little easier, as well.

Steve
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

See the larger Fish pepper flower bud?
That's about the correct stage to remove the petals and anthers (the process is called "emasculating" by the tomato and pepper breeders). At this stage, the anther is too immature to have produced pollen and pollinated the stigma in the same flower.
Image
https://www.extension.org/sites/default ... _parts.jpg

I needed to mark the time on my tags because about 36 hrs later from this stage is when these exposed stigma will become receptive to pollination. At thar point, I will hopefully collect pollen grains from the larger Fish blossom by using the electric toothbrush, and use them to pollinate those Bolivian Rainbow blossoms. I'm supposed to try to apply pollen for two more days, so the smaller Fish blossom will come in handy for additional pollen donor.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

So then... I REALLY thought this attempt was a bust because 36 hrs later, the Fish flower bud was still tightly closed :| and every 12 hrs thereafter for days :roll:

It FINALLY unfolded one petal last night, and when I looked at the emasculated Bolivian Rainbow blossoms, one had already wilted, but the other three looked intact. Since it took this long for the Fish blossom to mature, I reasoned that *maybe* ...just maybe... the BR blossoms are still receptive....

So I tried it this morning when the Fish blossom opened all its petals. Buzzing it resulted in satisfying minuscule pile of pollen on my iPhone -- I wasn't going to lose any pollen if I could help it. :wink: I used a teeny tiny angle cut flat acrylic painting brush to gently touch the pollen grains to the tip of the stigmas.

I'll keep repeating as long as this single Fish blossom can produce pollen, ...and we shall see.Image
Image

...maybe they need a little encouragement...
Image
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Attempted 2nd and 3rd application of pollen yesterday and today. Now we watch and see if they took. 8)
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

Gardener_Wes
Cool Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Pretty interesting thread.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Yep. ...and if any of you are interested in trying this, I urge you to practice without too much expectations in the beginning --

It's not easy even indoors with no wind or bugs to deal with, and with container plants that you can raise or lower and turn until the subject blossom is exactly where you need it to be for optimum view and handling. So there's the mechanical dexterity training involved in learning to emasculate the blossoms.... Then there are the critical timing issues and environmental issues that would promote or discourage pollination.

Last one of the previously reported Bolivian Rainbow blossoms dropped off today -- so none of them were successfully pollinated. :(

But ! ...there were several -- at least FOUR -- super variegated Fish blossoms that were at the right stage to emasculate. So I did that this evening :-()
image.jpg
...trouble IS, I'm not sure if there are/will be any potential pollen donor pepper flower buds to pollinate these with. Too bad because there were two flower buds with almost completely white stem and calyces. :?

FWIW I'm finding that pepper anthers are easier to break off than the fused tomato anther cones. But the delicate seeming petals are sometimes hard to pull off. But previous experience with tomato blossoms have shown that those petals will dry up and curl inward, and stick to the stigma if not removed, not to mention that in case of tomatoes at least, the yellow petals attract unwanted attention from the bees.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

applestar wrote:Thanks, digitS :D

As for the genetics and basic concept of what kind of progeny these may produce, this is always a good guide: https://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html

...you may have seen it before. :wink:

...it occurs to me I may have to re-think my tomato garden plans for next year, now that I have these fruits maturing with seeds for all kinds of exciting possibilities :()
We need to realize that it CAN be done. Right?

The website is Keith Mueller's. He is responsible for a variety I'm very happy having in my garden, Gary O Sena. Liz Birt and Dora are 2 "sisters" of the same cross between Cherokee Purple and Brandywine. Keith did this deliberately ...

Steve :)
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Still trying with the peppers. Some of the Fish blossoms have failed as expected, but emasculated a couple more and applied pollen from the Bolivian Rainbow.
image.jpg
Also emasculated 5 of these Dwarf Arctic Rose blossoms (the wax envelopes are to hopefully prevent selfing by the other blossoms.)
image.jpg
Utyonok or maybe Maglia Rosa may be available as pollen donor. I was hoping for some Coyote pollen but it's starting to decline now after a good winter run.

In the mean time, the babies from the crosses I attempted earlier are startling to grow :-()
image.jpg
10 seedlings of MRxZKCMWCFFSlv (MRxZCMF) F1in the middle of the tray
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

They are growing....!
image.jpg
...and more crosses :-()
These are Dwarf Arctic Rose x Maglia Rosa and Dwarf Arctic Rose x Utyonok 8)
image.jpg
Utyonok green fruits in the background
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Here's a progress report/update for this little project :()

Here are the offspring F1's I'm growing. It's been really interesting to note some obvious variations in growth patterns which presumably means the cross "took" (but with which pollen since donors were mixed, Hmm?)

I've put each cross side-by-side with their reference variety. Remember that the fruits they came from were almost all pollinated with pollen from multiple varieties. (FFSlv = Faelan's First Snow less variegated)

What do you think? Any thoughts? I would appreciate opinions on any remarkable details that should be noted at this stage -- I actually don't have any goals in mind other than "shorter container grow-able with great flavor" and "more prolific indeterminate" If these were yours, would single out any of them as keep or cull at this early stage?

Maglia Rosa x (Zluta Kytice, Coyote, Manö, FFSlv) F1
image.jpg
The two on the right look very similar to the Maglia Rosa ref plants -- wispy and droopy/sprawling.



Maglia Rosa x (Stump of the World?HBR, FFSlv, Manö) F1
image.jpg
Lost the top right corner plant. I think I have the map wrong here -- the lost top right was another wispy/MR like plant and bottom left looks like an indeterminate.



Whippersnapper x Stump of the World?HBR F1
image.jpg
I think some of them may have in-between PL kind of leaves with IND growth of SOW and others appear to be short and sprawling like Whippersnapper.



In this last picture, the reference plants of Faelan's First Snow is heavily infested by TRM and not growing well though you can still see a smidgen of variegation on it :( Also I used two photos from different viewpoints for the crosses.

Whippersnapper x FFSlv F1
image.jpg
The front two on the left are already blooming which (I'm guessing) could be from the early maturing Whippersnapper trait even though they look indeterminate. The short ones may be showing Whippersnapper-like growth.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

My little experimental subjects are continuing to grow and there are some obvious differences in growth patterns like indeterminate long internodes vs. shorter dwarf-ish internodes and height/growth rate, wispy vs spreading regular leaf, and now size of blossoms -- I'm seeing big blossoms, medium blossoms, and tiny blossoms which should be a good indicator of fruit size and other genetic traits :-()

Among this summer season's varieties, I've attempted to make these crosses (first listed is the mother -- typically I prep and pollinate 2 blossoms):

Terhune x Ildi
(PL ind pink) x (RL ind MF yellow)

Pink Siberian Tiger x Dwarf Mr. Snow
(RL antho ind pink antho heart) x (RPL dwf white )

Dwarf Mr. Snow x Pink Siberian Tiger
(RPL dwf white ) x (RL antho ind pink antho heart)

Hawaiian Pineapple x Berner Rose
(RL ind yellow red bicolor) x (RL ind pink)

Lucky Cross x Berner Rose
(PL ind yellow red bicolor) x (RL ind pink)

Berner Rose x Dwarf Emerald giant NOT
(RL ind pink) x (RL ind yellow red bicolor)


Gritmire's Pride x Cherokee Lime Stripes
(WL ind pink heart) x (RL ind striped gwr)

Fishlake Oxheart x Maglia Rosa
(WL ind pink heart) x (WL dwf pink elongated pt)

Lucky Cross x Wes
(PL ind yellow red bicolor xlg) x (WL red heart xlg)

{MR x (ZCMWFlv) F1 dwf sm flwr} x Lucky Cross
{MR x (ZCMWFlv) F1 dwf sm flwr} x (PL ind yellow red bicolor xlg)


...some of those blossoms had fallen off the next day -- i.e. Failed to pollinate. This may have been because I put a tulle bag over them thinking I need to protect them from accidental bee or wind pollination, but it got really hot that day. For a couple of those, I repeated the same cross on another set of blossoms.

I don't know how long it takes to be sure they have fruit set. In the wintertime, some pollinated mother blossoms persisted for as much as a week before inexplicably dropping. They also still have to get through the August heat and drought and the foliage disease pressure, and produce mature fruits. (I really HAVE to get around to doing this earlier -- like as soon as 2nd set of floral trusses appear -- trouble then, though is that the trusses are way low on the plants and difficult to get to, see, and handle.... Lots to learn still :roll: )

So far, I have these:
image.jpg
...one of the crosses I specifically wanted to attempt is same cross as Pamplemousse de Grandpere (Grandfather's Grapefruit) which was originally created by crossing Berner Rose (Rose de Berne) with Pineapple. I obtained Berner Rose seeds but failed to obtain Pineapple -- what I had was Hawaiian Pineapple :x :roll: So I'm trying to cross them but after prepping the Berner Rose, I realized there were no Hawaiian Pineapple blossoms to supply the pollen -- I tried with another bi-color pollen donor, but yesterday, I saw that both Berner Rose blossoms had failed. :?

I did attempt Hawaiian Pineapple x Berner Rose and Lucky Cross x Berner Rose and you can see those blossoms among the pictured pollinated blossoms. :-()
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

AppleStar, you have really got it going! Best of Luck.

For the third year, I have the 3 varieties in containers not 10 feet from the deck. For the second year, all flowers are being ignored ...

After the first year debacle, I'm just pretending that I'm ready to make the attempts at crossing but then enjoying the ripe fruit that's so handy, crossings not made. Can I blame DW? Her small hands might be successful if'n she would take an interest ...

;) Steve
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Well, I think it'll be something I would do only for fun -- so not stressing over it much. In fact, I'm seeing most of those attempted crosses failing at this point. So I was rather premature in showing what I did. :oops: -- So it will be like a special present to find any of them take and produce fruit to maturity. :cool:

It's probably a good thing too since I don't have that much room to grow the subsequent generations. :roll:

Already, I'm feeling the pressure to save seeds from all of these :bouncey:

6/20 MRxZCMWF F1 2/28/15 ind 7/29 3' big flwrs
Image


6/20 MRxSFM F1 2.27-3.9 wispy? 7/29 2' med flwrs
Image

6/20 WSxFFSlv F1 2/27 dwf 7/29 3' med flwrs
6/20 WSxFFSlv F1 2/26 ind 7/29 20" sm flwrs
6/20 WSxFFSlv F1 2/27 dwf 7/29 3' med flwrs
Image
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

My very first mature cross was Whippersnapper x Faelan's First Snow least variegated, F1 :()

About the size of a small saladette and a little larger than a large cherry. Sweet pink color when harvest ripe (soft give at blossom end). It has a split at stem end so I think I will need to cut it open sooner than later. The cracking could be coming from the Cherokee Purple ancestry (Faelan's First Snow is believed to be an accidental bee cross with Cherokee Purple as the mother).
image.jpg
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

...aaand my NEW-est baby: Dwarf Arctic Rose x Utyonok, F1
image.jpg
...hopefully the other three seedlings are just taking their time and will be sprouting soon... :o
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

My winter crosses are starting to ripen :D

WS x FFSlv (Whippersnapper x Faelans First Snow less variegated), F1
- plant #3F
- plant #7M

MR x ZCMWF (Maglia Rosa x [mixed pollen of Zluta Kytice, Coyote, Matt's Wild, FFSlv]), F1 plant #4B

MR x SFM (Maglia Rosa x [mixed pollen of Stump of the World not HBR, FFSlv, Manö]), F1 plant #1F
image.jpg
MR x ZCMWF, F1 plant #5
image.jpg
image.jpg
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
digitS'
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 3512
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: ID/Wa! border

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Taste .

.. tests ...

scheduled?

:D Steve
Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

OK, OK! :lol:

DD2 and I had our first tasting of two winter crosses today. When I took the photos, I didn't realize the digital scale's unit had switched to ml (?) ...so I tried to convert to equivalent weights and settled on 1/2 oz and 1 oz as shown.

Fruits of Plant #4B of MR x ZCMWF, F1 is the one that I was MOST hopeful of good results... And I'm SO HAPPY I was not disappointed. :()

DESCRIPTION: Maglia Rosa mother with mixed pollen of (Zluta Kytice, Coyote, Matt's Wild, and Faelan's First Snow less variegated) used to pollinate, so father could be any of these.

Plant #4B is a RL long-vined rambling indeterminate. It's trying to outgrow a severe TRM infestation. It has also retained the wild ability to use the leaf as a tendril to cling to support.
image.jpg
The fruit is 1/2 oz grape cherry that looks red/yellow marbled (is there a term for this?). I thought it might be clear but the skin/epi is solid yellow. I guess this is pink flesh and the prominent yellow veining makes it look sort of bi-color, especially with the yellow gel (But I'm guessing "bi-color" is not the right way to describe this.)

My impression was front end SWEET, then fresh tasting and salty, then tangy -- overall EXCELLENT!
DD2 said it was Sweet, very flavorful, and sweet aftertaste. Overall impression is SWEET.
image.jpg
13 ml = 0.44 fl.oz., 13 g = 0.45 oz (Approx. 1/2 oz)
.
.
.
We also tasted fruits from Plant #7M of WS x FFSlv, F1

DESCRIPTION: Whippersnapper mother and Faelan's First
Snow less variegated father.

I'll have to look at Plant #7M closely again to describe it. But I think it's a RL indeterminate.
image.jpg
The fruit is approx. 1 oz pink globe 3-locule saladette with tendency to split. Clear epi and pink flesh and pink gel.

My impression was front end SALTY, then sweet, then tangy with lingering acid. Overall also EXCELLENT.
DD2 said it had a STRONG flavor,sweet with good aftertaste. lingering tingly. She liked this one better.
image.jpg
image.jpg (33.15 KiB) Viewed 3101 times
29 ml = 0.98 fl.oz., 29 g = 1.02 oz (Approx. 1 oz)


.
.
.
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

With the yellow epi MR x ZKCMWF Plant #4B, would that automatically disqualify clear epi Coyote and FFS as the father? The rambling vine growth (also exhibited by Plant #1F, BTW) could have come from Zluta Kytice or Matt's Wild (or Coyote) I suppose.

Look at Plant #1F -- it's over 7 ft tall, but this one's somewhat rounder grape cherry fruits might be purple (or brown) -- would that automatically make the father FFS?. Those first two were so russeted by the TRM infestation that it was hard to tell, so I'm waiting for the next truss to ripen.
image.jpg
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Maglia Rosa x SFM, F1

DESCRIPTION: Maglia Rosa mother and mixed pollen of (Stump of the World HBR*, Faelan's First Snow less variegated, and Manö)

* "Stump of the World HBR" is a volunteer that grew in HBR (vegetable bed designated as "Haybale Row") last year. PL indeterminate. Fruits were pink beefsteak shaped slicers with slightly ruffled dark green shoulders while still immature, it was tentatively ID'd as Stump of the World but some questions remain.

This one is Plant #1F
image.jpg
I have three plants of this cross --
image.jpg
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Brief update on my crosses:

9/6
MR x SFM, F1 #1F (2)
MR x ZCMWF, F1 #4B (3)
Maglia Rosa for reference
WS x FFSlv, F1 #3F (2)
WS x FFSlv, F1 #2F (2)
WS x SOW?hbr, F1 #5B
image.jpg
9/10
MR x ZCMWF, F1 #1F -- small pink grape... XCoyote?
image.jpg
today
WS x FFSlv, F1 #7M -- not split
WS x FFSlv, F1 #1F -- not split
WS x SOW?hbr, F1 #6B (2) -- split at blushed
MR x ZCMWF, F1 #5B -- small red grape... xMWC?
WS x FFSlv, F1#3F and #4F -- split while green color break
image.jpg
I'm finding woefully prevalent cases of splitting in my Whippersnapper x FFSlv and Whippersnapper x SOW?hbr Crosses. ...I don't want to change the color though. I picked these two parents specifically because I wanted pink or purple.

After yesterday's all day rain, Plant #6B of Whipper Snapper x Stump of the World?hbr, F1 had split fruits… even ones while still green, not even blushed but maybe color break stage. I tried eating a blushed #6B and found it had super yummy green gel but crunchy and thin-walled (hopefully due to being only blushed) almost sweet fresh tasting flesh.

WS x SOW?hbr, F1 #6B
image.jpg
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

imafan26
Mod
Posts: 11261
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:32 pm
Location: hawaii, zone 12a 587 ft elev.

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

It is hard to do anything about the rain. But overall a very successful endeavor crossing the tomatoes. It sounds like most of them turned out pretty good.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

User avatar
applestar
Mod
Posts: 27739
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:21 pm
Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M

Re: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

Update Photos of Dwarf Arctic Rose x Utyonok F1 seedlings.
image.jpg
They are showing very promising stout and dwarf (short internode) structure that might be really good for winter indoor growing and container growing, intermingling with flowers without unsightly tomato supports.... 8)
Learning never ends because we can share what we've learned. And in sharing our collective experiences, we gain deeper understanding of what we learned.

Return to “TOMATO FORUM”