I have too many and never really considered taking them outside in the winter, but in early spring, I take them out when official temperature is in the upper 40's because it will be warmer in the sun. The thing is when it's in the upper 40's it could be as warm as 60's or even 70's in direct sun, BUT the indoor grown seedlings cannot take full sun at first and need to be gradually acclimated. They also can't take too much air movement at first. (1/2 hr in the sun for first day out, etc.)
You also need to keep in mind that it's colder directly on the ground because the soil temp could be frozen or only a little warmer.
One way to temporarily take them outside in the cold is to put them in a large translucent storage tote with translucent cover. It's like a mini-greenhouse. If no wind, I angle the cover so there is ventilation but mostly blocks the sun. If there IS danger of wind blowing away the cover, I bungee it on at an angle. Sometimes in the sun it can get too hot inside.
A thermometer is an essential equipment to take readings, and you need to be able to monitor the temp constantly at first so you know the conditions as the sun moves through the day.
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Juliuskitty, I think you are correct.
These seedlings have jumped in growth since uppotting. I'm raising the lights/lowering the risers every other day so they won't touch the hot lights! One of the Whippersnappers is about an inch taller than the rest in that group, and I think I might have to move it out (so I might as well plant it in its basket -- Whippersnapper is said to be a good hanging basket variety).
One of the Manö plants is also trying to touch the lights every morning.
These seedlings have jumped in growth since uppotting. I'm raising the lights/lowering the risers every other day so they won't touch the hot lights! One of the Whippersnappers is about an inch taller than the rest in that group, and I think I might have to move it out (so I might as well plant it in its basket -- Whippersnapper is said to be a good hanging basket variety).
One of the Manö plants is also trying to touch the lights every morning.
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I decided to try watering it this way, since I can't have it dripping all over the place, and
I can't see myself unhooking it and taking it to a sink, etc. to water every time. I'm going to keep the wax-plugged terracotta pot filled with water at all times. The soil mix level is low because I want it to recover from transplanting and grow new roots along stem that I already buried while the mix settles, *then* top it with more fresh mix.
I can't see myself unhooking it and taking it to a sink, etc. to water every time. I'm going to keep the wax-plugged terracotta pot filled with water at all times. The soil mix level is low because I want it to recover from transplanting and grow new roots along stem that I already buried while the mix settles, *then* top it with more fresh mix.
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My seedlings are growing rapidly. I really need to uppot to next size or plant most of the seedlings in community containers in their final 3 gal containers YESTERDAY
The 1st Whippersnapper is starting to grow a branch shoot and 2nd Whippersnapper was planted in a pressed fiber basket today. You can see flower trusses starting to form on several of these.
The 1st Whippersnapper is starting to grow a branch shoot and 2nd Whippersnapper was planted in a pressed fiber basket today. You can see flower trusses starting to form on several of these.
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I uppotted those plants. They kept touching the lights.
The T-8's are not as hot and they might be only lightly singed even after a few hours, but the T-5 will scorch them if they are not rescued within a couple of hours after the lights turn on.
2 Coyote were separated into 1 per 1/2 gal rice milk carton
2 Dwarf Arctic Rose into 1 per 1.5 qt ice cream carton
1 Manö also in a 1.5 qt ice cream carton I still need to uppot those dwarfs in the community rice milk carton.
One of the Manö in the foursome was severely stunted in growth.
When I separated them, I discovered that one of the DAR had snaked
two long feeder roots on either side past the little Manö.
No wonder it wasn't growing. It was too little to be planted in an
Ice cream carton but was given a 4" pot of its own.
The 1 Orange Pixie was uppotted from a 1 pt. Berry basket to this
4"x5"H (probably 3 cup) square container.
2 mini blocks of late sprouting Orange Pixie and a Yellow Dwarf
were uppotted into a shared 1 pt berry basket.
2 Maglia Rosa uppotted 1 per 1/2 gal rice milk carton had outgrown the max height of the garage V8 Nursery. They are temporarily parked here in this klugey set up. One of the two T-5 tubes had gone out and, in fact, this DIY light is scheduled to be upgraded to a 3-light system.
The 2 Whippersnappers in hanging baskets are being trained. They may eventually sprawl and be good in hanging baskets as I was told, but for now they insist on growing upwards. And in the limited headspace indoors, I was rearing my hair out because they kept touching the lights.
It's kind of funny because this is OPPOSITE of normal training to grow straight upwards on a stake, etc. I'm training them to bend down and droop.
The T-8's are not as hot and they might be only lightly singed even after a few hours, but the T-5 will scorch them if they are not rescued within a couple of hours after the lights turn on.
2 Coyote were separated into 1 per 1/2 gal rice milk carton
2 Dwarf Arctic Rose into 1 per 1.5 qt ice cream carton
1 Manö also in a 1.5 qt ice cream carton I still need to uppot those dwarfs in the community rice milk carton.
One of the Manö in the foursome was severely stunted in growth.
When I separated them, I discovered that one of the DAR had snaked
two long feeder roots on either side past the little Manö.
No wonder it wasn't growing. It was too little to be planted in an
Ice cream carton but was given a 4" pot of its own.
The 1 Orange Pixie was uppotted from a 1 pt. Berry basket to this
4"x5"H (probably 3 cup) square container.
2 mini blocks of late sprouting Orange Pixie and a Yellow Dwarf
were uppotted into a shared 1 pt berry basket.
2 Maglia Rosa uppotted 1 per 1/2 gal rice milk carton had outgrown the max height of the garage V8 Nursery. They are temporarily parked here in this klugey set up. One of the two T-5 tubes had gone out and, in fact, this DIY light is scheduled to be upgraded to a 3-light system.
The 2 Whippersnappers in hanging baskets are being trained. They may eventually sprawl and be good in hanging baskets as I was told, but for now they insist on growing upwards. And in the limited headspace indoors, I was rearing my hair out because they kept touching the lights.
It's kind of funny because this is OPPOSITE of normal training to grow straight upwards on a stake, etc. I'm training them to bend down and droop.
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So, is anyone else besides gixxerific (who grows tomatoes year around anyway) planning to grow a few tomatoes indoors this winter? ...or are you going to watch me for another season?
I think a few criteria are already emerging that will guide you in your variety selection and growing conditions. It's no too late. I keep my house WAY cold and that's why I need to start this early so they would get their growing, blossoming, and fruit setting done and hunker down to maturing and ripening the green fruits on warm days during the coldest weeks. If you tend to have warmer house in the 70's there's no reason your tomatoes won't keep growing through the winter.
I'll tell you what: Later on, I'll be posting about my fresh ripe tomatoes while it's snowing outside, and you'll wish you started some "back then" -- which is NOW.
I think a few criteria are already emerging that will guide you in your variety selection and growing conditions. It's no too late. I keep my house WAY cold and that's why I need to start this early so they would get their growing, blossoming, and fruit setting done and hunker down to maturing and ripening the green fruits on warm days during the coldest weeks. If you tend to have warmer house in the 70's there's no reason your tomatoes won't keep growing through the winter.
I'll tell you what: Later on, I'll be posting about my fresh ripe tomatoes while it's snowing outside, and you'll wish you started some "back then" -- which is NOW.
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I have another Coyote that I'm envisioning growing around this upstairs windowsill in long vines. But this is the window allocated to two mango trees, one of the citruses that I think might bloom, and one of the jasmines, so it will take some planning to make sure they all get the sun and supplemental light they need. (It's also a windowsill favored by our two kitties as you can see. This one happened to be there both times when I took the photos and is squinting because of the supplemental CFL bulbs )
For now, I've uppotted from 1/2 gal to 1 gal container, but Coyote is ultimately going to need at least 3-4 gallon. I'm planning to add on to the container (utility knife and duct tape ) -- if you zoom in, you'll see that this Coyote is also starting to bloom
...it may seem too early to call these winter tomatoes, but if it takes 40-50 days from blossoms to ripe fruits, then these first fruits won't be ready to pick until November. And their growth will slow down as it gets colder and days become shorter providing less natural light.
For now, I've uppotted from 1/2 gal to 1 gal container, but Coyote is ultimately going to need at least 3-4 gallon. I'm planning to add on to the container (utility knife and duct tape ) -- if you zoom in, you'll see that this Coyote is also starting to bloom
...it may seem too early to call these winter tomatoes, but if it takes 40-50 days from blossoms to ripe fruits, then these first fruits won't be ready to pick until November. And their growth will slow down as it gets colder and days become shorter providing less natural light.
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I asked DD to provide a taste review of these four little beauties:
She started with the Yellow Dwarf and said it "tasted like the big tomatoes" -- now that's pretty significant considering that she's comparing it to the top flavor picks like Terhune, Captain Lucky, Missouri Rose, Ananas Noire, Grandma Oliver's Chocolate, Faelan's First Snow (Cherokee Purple type), etc.
Then she had Whippersnapper and said it tasted sweet and she liked it.
The Coyote which she said was sweeter and yummier.
She saved the Maglia Rosa for last, saying she had this before. She paused a minute to clear her palate and explained that her mouth was full of "tomato flavor" -- which I think can be ascribed to the Coyote's strong lingering finish. Then she had the first bite and her eyes widened -- REALLY SWEET! She declared Maglia Rosa the best out of the four.
Maglia Rosa, Coyote, Yellow Dwarf, and WhippersnapperShe started with the Yellow Dwarf and said it "tasted like the big tomatoes" -- now that's pretty significant considering that she's comparing it to the top flavor picks like Terhune, Captain Lucky, Missouri Rose, Ananas Noire, Grandma Oliver's Chocolate, Faelan's First Snow (Cherokee Purple type), etc.
Then she had Whippersnapper and said it tasted sweet and she liked it.
The Coyote which she said was sweeter and yummier.
She saved the Maglia Rosa for last, saying she had this before. She paused a minute to clear her palate and explained that her mouth was full of "tomato flavor" -- which I think can be ascribed to the Coyote's strong lingering finish. Then she had the first bite and her eyes widened -- REALLY SWEET! She declared Maglia Rosa the best out of the four.
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I'm running into problems with TRM (tomato russet mite) infestation again. Without the mite predators to rescue them like they did outside this summer, Maglia Rosa#1, Dwarf Arctic Rose#1, Sweet N Neat (pink OP) #1, and Manö #1 and #2 on top of the Winter Paradise indoor greenhouse shelves are toast, though some of them did produce a couple of clusters of mature tomatoes before they went down.
I'm thinking of trying to grow dwarf snap peas there to see if it can be done (trying to think of something that won't be affected by TRM that will grow well in the coming couple of months since the temperature will continue to descend at this north-facing window location -- looking at mid-60's at most and as low as low 50's with blasts of freezing drafts from the front foyer and door. With the front flap down and even zipped closed, it should stay warm enough (upper 60's to 70's) INSIDE the Winter Paradise for the basils, orchids, peppers, curry plant, etc.
In this photo, you can see the Yellow Dwarf starting to go down
Yellow Dwarf ....... (Maglia Rosa#1 and Coyote#2 in the back) Whippersnapper#1, Coyote#1 close up Whippersnapper#2 ...... Maglia Rosa#1 close up with super variegated Fish pepper
Dwarf Arctic Rose#2 Sweet N Neat (pink OP)#2 ....... Orange Pixie
I just brought the Dwarf Arctic Rose#2 and Sweet N Neat#2 -- as well as a few more -- inside from the garage V8 Nursery yesterday because the temp there dropped to 38°F. So these are suffering from the cold and somewhat stunted from the slow growth in the cooler fall garage temps. I was going to use them to replace the determinate varieties as they finished up deteriorated, but since top of WP appear too hazardous for tomatoes, I'll have to think of other locations to distribute them.
(I fully expect the TRM to spread to other tomato plants around the house on me and my clothing, so it's probably just a matter of time until we have a full blown pandemic.... )
I'm thinking of trying to grow dwarf snap peas there to see if it can be done (trying to think of something that won't be affected by TRM that will grow well in the coming couple of months since the temperature will continue to descend at this north-facing window location -- looking at mid-60's at most and as low as low 50's with blasts of freezing drafts from the front foyer and door. With the front flap down and even zipped closed, it should stay warm enough (upper 60's to 70's) INSIDE the Winter Paradise for the basils, orchids, peppers, curry plant, etc.
In this photo, you can see the Yellow Dwarf starting to go down
Yellow Dwarf ....... (Maglia Rosa#1 and Coyote#2 in the back) Whippersnapper#1, Coyote#1 close up Whippersnapper#2 ...... Maglia Rosa#1 close up with super variegated Fish pepper
Dwarf Arctic Rose#2 Sweet N Neat (pink OP)#2 ....... Orange Pixie
I just brought the Dwarf Arctic Rose#2 and Sweet N Neat#2 -- as well as a few more -- inside from the garage V8 Nursery yesterday because the temp there dropped to 38°F. So these are suffering from the cold and somewhat stunted from the slow growth in the cooler fall garage temps. I was going to use them to replace the determinate varieties as they finished up deteriorated, but since top of WP appear too hazardous for tomatoes, I'll have to think of other locations to distribute them.
(I fully expect the TRM to spread to other tomato plants around the house on me and my clothing, so it's probably just a matter of time until we have a full blown pandemic.... )
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I'm going to post some updates today, starting with ones that are doing well.
Here' s Orange Pixie as of yesterday.... Waiting for the first truss to ripen
It's in one of my "crazy idea" winter container experiments - identical OJ jugs used to EXPAND rather than uppot into a larger container. I tried similar ideas by stacking containers last winter. ...it started with the shorter jug, then I cut matching openings in the side walls and added the "external container expansion" I was REALLY pleased to see the roots growing into and starting to fill the 2nd container within a couple of weeks. I got the idea from external drives and battery packs while perusing a geeky gadget catalog.
Here' s Orange Pixie as of yesterday.... Waiting for the first truss to ripen
It's in one of my "crazy idea" winter container experiments - identical OJ jugs used to EXPAND rather than uppot into a larger container. I tried similar ideas by stacking containers last winter. ...it started with the shorter jug, then I cut matching openings in the side walls and added the "external container expansion" I was REALLY pleased to see the roots growing into and starting to fill the 2nd container within a couple of weeks. I got the idea from external drives and battery packs while perusing a geeky gadget catalog.
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Now, HERE is a sad photo of the Maglia Rosa in the KFC bucket. It has mostly succumbed to the TRM attack. I've given up on it and am trying some Sugar Sprint snap peas and Solstice broccoli, as well as a scattering on cilantro in the container (I'll prick out the broccoli once they grow true leaves though it looks as though they needed to be closer to the light ). You can see the white container that contained the a Yellow Dwarf in the back after the fruits were harvested. The right hand photo shows the Dwarf Arctic Rose with the small fruits, also going down after ripening this tiny harvest....
Subject: Embrace Your INNER APE –dealing with APHIDS >> got ladybugs
The small paper bags and folded papers in the above photos contain some of the GLW eggs that are expected to hatch out the voracious mite-eating GLW larvae.
...but I'm hoping to turn things around for the rest of the struggling and still healthy Winter Indoor Tomatoes by releasing ladybugs and -hopefully- green lacewings (GLWs). Documenting the process in this other thread: The small paper bags and folded papers in the above photos contain some of the GLW eggs that are expected to hatch out the voracious mite-eating GLW larvae.
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Here's another look at the two Dwarf Arctic Rose plants. One put out a megabloom while still small and set a single fruit very early on, then stayed out in the cooling garage V8 Nursery and took a long time to mature the fruit, but when the garage temp fell into 40's it was brought inside while the large fruit still green. The other plant was brought indoors relatively early on, but became infested by TRM and struggled to mature the first cluster of three fruits.
They are both still in the 1/2 gallon rice milk cartons. The three smaller fruits are 1.5", 1.75" and 2" at widest diameter. The mega fruit is 3"
Oh yeah, and the two Orange Pixie are ready to harvest ...huh? It's strange but I can't seem to get the fruit color to be what my eye are seeing...
They look more like THIS
They are both still in the 1/2 gallon rice milk cartons. The three smaller fruits are 1.5", 1.75" and 2" at widest diameter. The mega fruit is 3"
Oh yeah, and the two Orange Pixie are ready to harvest ...huh? It's strange but I can't seem to get the fruit color to be what my eye are seeing...
They look more like THIS
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A "clinical" summary of things that have been happening with my Winter Indoor Tomatoes so far -- a progress review of sorts
Some of my Winter Indoor Tomatoes have failed completely, while others are struggling, and yet others are looking quite well still, and I have hopes for one plant that was down to sticks but is now growing a healthy-looking shoot even though it is touching another plant that has recently declined to "the sticks" state. I'll post photos of these later to illustrate their conditions better.
After doing this for the last few years, I know my main issue is with TRM -- tomato russet mites. I haven't even set up the microscope to verify it this time. They need to be magnified to 60x to 100x to see clearly. They can easily be transferred from one plant to another by handling infested plants. I really think on occasion, I have spread them with my E toothbrush. They can also be blown from one plant to the next on air currents.
In my case, progress of infestations can be readily observed because I have several discreet growing areas. Some areas escape infestation for a long time, but eventually show that I have not been as careful as I should -- I grow too many and get careless.
I have heard and read about many different possible sprays and treatments for TRM, but I really prefer to not use any broad spectrum killing agents. Also, indoors and packed, it's very difficult to spray anything sticky or stinky and certainly nothing toxic. I won't get into all the details right now.
Related to the mite issue is the rapid decline in humidity as soon as the outside temperature has dropped to the point that the central heating kicks in almost around the clock.
My other indoor garden nemesis are aphids and scale insects. Tomatoes are not particularly affected by scale insects though. It's the aphids that can get out of hand because ants that pasture them around and protect them find their way in -- either during periods of thaw from outside, or because they have actually moved INTO one or more of the containers.
Oh! I forgot to mention because I have been fortunate not to see too much of this so far -- tomato leaf miner moths can also devastate the Winter Indoor Tomatoes. I think I did see a couple fluttering around in the lights in the last week, and found one infested leaf so far. If I'm careful about inspecting the leaves, I may be able to stop a general explosive infestation by the next generation of hatched moths.
Finally, another critical turning point, I feel, is when the soil nutrients in the containers are depleted. Sometimes, if I'm not ready, they first to suffer the nutrient deficiency is too stressed to recover well, especially because they are at the point when they are blooming and fruiting and needing the next level and balance in nutrients.
Some of my Winter Indoor Tomatoes have failed completely, while others are struggling, and yet others are looking quite well still, and I have hopes for one plant that was down to sticks but is now growing a healthy-looking shoot even though it is touching another plant that has recently declined to "the sticks" state. I'll post photos of these later to illustrate their conditions better.
After doing this for the last few years, I know my main issue is with TRM -- tomato russet mites. I haven't even set up the microscope to verify it this time. They need to be magnified to 60x to 100x to see clearly. They can easily be transferred from one plant to another by handling infested plants. I really think on occasion, I have spread them with my E toothbrush. They can also be blown from one plant to the next on air currents.
In my case, progress of infestations can be readily observed because I have several discreet growing areas. Some areas escape infestation for a long time, but eventually show that I have not been as careful as I should -- I grow too many and get careless.
I have heard and read about many different possible sprays and treatments for TRM, but I really prefer to not use any broad spectrum killing agents. Also, indoors and packed, it's very difficult to spray anything sticky or stinky and certainly nothing toxic. I won't get into all the details right now.
Related to the mite issue is the rapid decline in humidity as soon as the outside temperature has dropped to the point that the central heating kicks in almost around the clock.
My other indoor garden nemesis are aphids and scale insects. Tomatoes are not particularly affected by scale insects though. It's the aphids that can get out of hand because ants that pasture them around and protect them find their way in -- either during periods of thaw from outside, or because they have actually moved INTO one or more of the containers.
Oh! I forgot to mention because I have been fortunate not to see too much of this so far -- tomato leaf miner moths can also devastate the Winter Indoor Tomatoes. I think I did see a couple fluttering around in the lights in the last week, and found one infested leaf so far. If I'm careful about inspecting the leaves, I may be able to stop a general explosive infestation by the next generation of hatched moths.
Finally, another critical turning point, I feel, is when the soil nutrients in the containers are depleted. Sometimes, if I'm not ready, they first to suffer the nutrient deficiency is too stressed to recover well, especially because they are at the point when they are blooming and fruiting and needing the next level and balance in nutrients.
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L1. Whippersnapper in the hanging basket in Winter Wonderland is rapidly yellowing -- combination, I think, of TRM infestation and premature senescence due to being a Determinate.
L2. Sweet n Neat (pink OP) is ripening the first fruit, but it looks as though I managed to transfer some TRM on this otherwise unaffected plant in the Green Room which is isolated from the other, more heavily infested Winter Indoor Tomato growing areas
L3. A couple more Maglia Rosa ripening in Winter Wonderland, but this plant may bite the dust! The upright vine in the center is a Coyote plant and although it is also infested, they haven't managed to get to the upper vines where new green fruit clusters are maturing... Yet.
R. This area was first to be infested by the TRM (some dead plants have already been removed). If you look closely, there are three tomato plants in this photo from top of Winter Paradise. (1) the last pink Dwarf Arctic Rose fruit is basically hanging on dried up stick, (2) mostly dead Manö in the right foreground, and (3) fresh looking new shoot from the Maglia Rose in the KFC bucket that otherwise looks like dead sticks -- infestation level is somewhere between DAR and Manö. Although there are some yellowing and the new shoot may end up like the others, I'm hoping for a miracle recovery, which would indicate presence of predatory mites.
L2. Sweet n Neat (pink OP) is ripening the first fruit, but it looks as though I managed to transfer some TRM on this otherwise unaffected plant in the Green Room which is isolated from the other, more heavily infested Winter Indoor Tomato growing areas
L3. A couple more Maglia Rosa ripening in Winter Wonderland, but this plant may bite the dust! The upright vine in the center is a Coyote plant and although it is also infested, they haven't managed to get to the upper vines where new green fruit clusters are maturing... Yet.
R. This area was first to be infested by the TRM (some dead plants have already been removed). If you look closely, there are three tomato plants in this photo from top of Winter Paradise. (1) the last pink Dwarf Arctic Rose fruit is basically hanging on dried up stick, (2) mostly dead Manö in the right foreground, and (3) fresh looking new shoot from the Maglia Rose in the KFC bucket that otherwise looks like dead sticks -- infestation level is somewhere between DAR and Manö. Although there are some yellowing and the new shoot may end up like the others, I'm hoping for a miracle recovery, which would indicate presence of predatory mites.
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WHY am I posting about growing peas in the Winter Indoor Tomato growing thread? ...because if this experiment is successful, I think I'll succession plant dwarf peas during this coldest period -end of Nov to beginning of Feb- after the first string tomatoes have gone down.
...but let's not count the eggs yet... Here they are, just starting to grow: ...I'm also trying to grow the Littleleaf H-19 parthenocarpic cucumber again, but it requires growing in the Winter Paradise where temps can be maintained in the 70's:
...but let's not count the eggs yet... Here they are, just starting to grow: ...I'm also trying to grow the Littleleaf H-19 parthenocarpic cucumber again, but it requires growing in the Winter Paradise where temps can be maintained in the 70's:
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OK I'll add a review of things that I've been doing that I think makes a positive difference
I find spider mites and the TRM to be particularly difficult to deal with. A couple of winters ago, I had an outbreak of two-spotted mites on a tomato plant that was completely isolated from others. I decided to try to rescue it by soap and oil solution spray and dip. I'm talking dedicated and tedious process of dipping every single leaf and transporting the plant in a 3 gal container to the bathtub on almost daily basis to spray and shower.
Despite the demanding work, the spidermites were hardly reduced while the leaves themselves suffered and deteriorated from excessive treatment and handling.
I combed the web for references and treatment options, and most say the mites may or may not respond to sulfur, possibly neem, but they are very resistant. My conclusion at that time is that predatory mites are the only effective control -- but they are expensive to purchase and most sources are too distant to reliably obtain without express shipping (nearly doubling the already high cost). If you have the budget for them, I would recommend just going straight for predatory mites.
I know from this summers experience -- the way infested plants grew new shoots that were completely clear of the mites -- that they ARE out there... I.e. Some species of Garden Patrol (natural predators) that can control the TRM. Normal infestation of red spider mites usually doesn't happen until very late in the winter -- nearly spring, and my solution has always been put them out in the garden as soon as temperature permits. Sometimes out of control scale insect outbreak can also be remedied by putting them outside under the auspices of the Garden Patrol.
I simply can't do the isolated "clean room" -- too many plants to being back inside. Also, I have found that I really have less problems if I bring in the plants with their phytosphere intact, rather than the traditionally recommended antiseptic treatment to thoroughly debug foliage and soil before bringing them in.
So as crazy as this may sound, I don't. In fact, I introduce earthworms and compost into the rhizosphere, and spiders and ladybugs into the phyllosphere. Especially in the beginning, I sometimes still see beneficial wasps and flies buzzing among them and in the lights, emerging from the soil, etc. I'm hoping to see if by some luck, the TRM predator has come inside as well. In the future I want to try to work out a way to encourage/ensure that the predatory mites will be brought inside for the indoor garden.
AACT or some equivalent has been exceedingly beneficial -- I can't dedicate my efforts to strictly controlled brews -- I maintain a 2 gallon bucket of mixed compost tea, reconstituted alfalfa pellet tea (for extra N), UCG (used coffee grounds) and UTB (used tea bags), rice washing rinse water, beverage container rinse out water, etc. with 24 hour aeration. To this, I sometimes add a pinch of dolomitic lime or Epsom salts (my only concession to salt "fertilizer"). My usual practice is to start watering with this at some level of dilution on regular basis after the container nutrients are estimated to be depleted. The water is always left out overnight at least to outgas chlorination before added to the "tea" and for using on the plants.
This year, I'm also keeping a jug stuffed with willow bark and leaves to which I add water to steep. I water with this when I think some plants need encouragement to grow more roots or are suffering an ailment.
For the humidity issues, I have found the single most important routine is to spray with filtered water every morning until the plants are dripping with the simulated "dew". Using a hygrometer, I've measured that the ambient humidity can be raised by 20 to 30% sometimes to near 100% for the moment! and then the RH slowly dropped back to the room average over the course of 2-3 hours. For my situation -- not in a damp basement where many people,s grow areas are located but in regular living areas -- this has been critical. I try to spray every morning or at least every other morning. Neglecting this has shown clear decline in the plants' health. I sometimes add a little milk or whey in areas that can handle the overspray (or if the plants can be brought to the sink or bath tub), a pinch of Epsom salts, or spray with the willow water.
There is a lowest threashold for light/supplemental light that must be met or the tomatoes won't thrive enough to bloom and fruit. I've been trying to identify varieties that are more likely to tolerate -fruit in spite of- lower light levels.
..more tomorrow...
I find spider mites and the TRM to be particularly difficult to deal with. A couple of winters ago, I had an outbreak of two-spotted mites on a tomato plant that was completely isolated from others. I decided to try to rescue it by soap and oil solution spray and dip. I'm talking dedicated and tedious process of dipping every single leaf and transporting the plant in a 3 gal container to the bathtub on almost daily basis to spray and shower.
Despite the demanding work, the spidermites were hardly reduced while the leaves themselves suffered and deteriorated from excessive treatment and handling.
I combed the web for references and treatment options, and most say the mites may or may not respond to sulfur, possibly neem, but they are very resistant. My conclusion at that time is that predatory mites are the only effective control -- but they are expensive to purchase and most sources are too distant to reliably obtain without express shipping (nearly doubling the already high cost). If you have the budget for them, I would recommend just going straight for predatory mites.
I know from this summers experience -- the way infested plants grew new shoots that were completely clear of the mites -- that they ARE out there... I.e. Some species of Garden Patrol (natural predators) that can control the TRM. Normal infestation of red spider mites usually doesn't happen until very late in the winter -- nearly spring, and my solution has always been put them out in the garden as soon as temperature permits. Sometimes out of control scale insect outbreak can also be remedied by putting them outside under the auspices of the Garden Patrol.
I simply can't do the isolated "clean room" -- too many plants to being back inside. Also, I have found that I really have less problems if I bring in the plants with their phytosphere intact, rather than the traditionally recommended antiseptic treatment to thoroughly debug foliage and soil before bringing them in.
So as crazy as this may sound, I don't. In fact, I introduce earthworms and compost into the rhizosphere, and spiders and ladybugs into the phyllosphere. Especially in the beginning, I sometimes still see beneficial wasps and flies buzzing among them and in the lights, emerging from the soil, etc. I'm hoping to see if by some luck, the TRM predator has come inside as well. In the future I want to try to work out a way to encourage/ensure that the predatory mites will be brought inside for the indoor garden.
AACT or some equivalent has been exceedingly beneficial -- I can't dedicate my efforts to strictly controlled brews -- I maintain a 2 gallon bucket of mixed compost tea, reconstituted alfalfa pellet tea (for extra N), UCG (used coffee grounds) and UTB (used tea bags), rice washing rinse water, beverage container rinse out water, etc. with 24 hour aeration. To this, I sometimes add a pinch of dolomitic lime or Epsom salts (my only concession to salt "fertilizer"). My usual practice is to start watering with this at some level of dilution on regular basis after the container nutrients are estimated to be depleted. The water is always left out overnight at least to outgas chlorination before added to the "tea" and for using on the plants.
This year, I'm also keeping a jug stuffed with willow bark and leaves to which I add water to steep. I water with this when I think some plants need encouragement to grow more roots or are suffering an ailment.
For the humidity issues, I have found the single most important routine is to spray with filtered water every morning until the plants are dripping with the simulated "dew". Using a hygrometer, I've measured that the ambient humidity can be raised by 20 to 30% sometimes to near 100% for the moment! and then the RH slowly dropped back to the room average over the course of 2-3 hours. For my situation -- not in a damp basement where many people,s grow areas are located but in regular living areas -- this has been critical. I try to spray every morning or at least every other morning. Neglecting this has shown clear decline in the plants' health. I sometimes add a little milk or whey in areas that can handle the overspray (or if the plants can be brought to the sink or bath tub), a pinch of Epsom salts, or spray with the willow water.
There is a lowest threashold for light/supplemental light that must be met or the tomatoes won't thrive enough to bloom and fruit. I've been trying to identify varieties that are more likely to tolerate -fruit in spite of- lower light levels.
..more tomorrow...
- applestar
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- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
...more thoughts and reviews...
CHOICE OF VARIETIES
I concentrate on varieties that are extra early to early maturing, productive and extra tasty.
I have been concentrating on genetically dwarf varieties that have short internodes, which compensates for the diminished light levels and won't waste space or grow too lanky. And will start fruiting on trusses that are closer to the soil than than most standard indeterminates.
I prefer varieties that won't grow any more than about 30" max which is as high as my main tomato growing shop light can go -- and that grow well in container size of 3 gal max.
FLAVOR is important. The variety needs to start with exceptional flavor profile because the lower light and temperature are going to diminish the intensity. Already insipid lay flavored tomato will not be much better than supermarket tomatoes and not worth the time/effort/space. Varieties that are lacking in fairly strong sweetness will be tangy and astringent.
Large fruited varieties will grow but the fruit size is sometimes reduced in a small container, or else the plant itself will only grow to a certain point, then lose vigor due to constricted root space. I need to research more and trial more varieties because I ran into an interesting lucky find with Spudakee that would grow and grow in a tiny one gallon container and produce cherry-saladette sized, extra yummy fruits (split like crazy though). But another variety I trialed couldn't get over the small, restricted root space and would drop and shrivel blossoms, never setting fruit.
Maglia Rosa -- EXACTLY matches the criteria -- dwarf growth, early, tasty, larger than a cherry and sweet. Hopefully more productive when not suffering from TRM.
But this year's two exceptions have been --
(1) Whippersnapper, which was described as good for hanging baskets -- it sprawls and does not have the strong tendency to grow upwards, rather, willing to hang sideways and down without breaking. Whippersnapper's disadvantage is that it's a Determinate. So early to fruit, but it looks like what I would need to do is lavish care on this variety from the beginning to ensure good production, then possibly have a replacement growing to take it's place, or allow another, later maturing variety to take over it's space in "changing of the guard" succession.
(2) Coyote, which is, in the garden, a MASSIVE and tall indeterminate vine. It has lengthy internodes and insists on growing upwards. It prefers to have a massive root growing space. None of which fit my previously established criteria for Winter Indoor Growing. But what it does have going for it is disposition to start fruiting extremely early, and fruiting in clusters of at least 5-7 and THE SUPERB FLAVOR. Because of it's early fruiting tendencies, I'm considering clone-replacement of overgrown vines several times during the winter as a viable option.
VARIETIES I had success with so far:
Totally Recommended: Coyote, Maglia Rosa, Whippersnapper, Kootenai, Sweet n Neat (pink OP), Yellow Dwarf
Dwarf Arctic Rose (needs at least another season's trial), Sophie's Choice (almost too tangy but strong tomato flavor), Orange Pixie (dwarf OP but growing taller than strictly desired), Spudukee (not as productive as I would like, splits), Donomater (not stable yet though)
STARTING THE SEEDS
For Winter Indoor Tomatoes. I've decided that August 1 or as close to that as possible is the best timing to start the seeds. This allows them to grow in warm conditions for rapid maturity, blossoming and fruit set in ideal conditions before it gets too cold. Then the green fruits will ripen by the holidays to supply a bit of cheer. This year, first of the extra early Coyote and Whippersnapper were ripe before Thanksgiving.
I've tried starting some of the seeds and growing the seedlings outside twice so far, and both times, they became heavily infected by overwhelmingly rampant septoria. Diseased plants won't stand up to the diminished indoor conditions... not to mention the danger of spreading the disease to other plants in the close quarters. So it's best to start the seeds indoors in a better controlled environment.
The seedlings should not be provided with plenty of light and should not be allowed to get stunted -- they should be uppotted in 10-14 day intervals during the first month, then final or near final container by 2nd month... and provided with further enlarged root growing space as needed. I'm experimenting with "adding on" and expanding growing space with sidecar/"external battery" arrangement described earlier in this thread.
... To be continued ...
CHOICE OF VARIETIES
I concentrate on varieties that are extra early to early maturing, productive and extra tasty.
I have been concentrating on genetically dwarf varieties that have short internodes, which compensates for the diminished light levels and won't waste space or grow too lanky. And will start fruiting on trusses that are closer to the soil than than most standard indeterminates.
I prefer varieties that won't grow any more than about 30" max which is as high as my main tomato growing shop light can go -- and that grow well in container size of 3 gal max.
FLAVOR is important. The variety needs to start with exceptional flavor profile because the lower light and temperature are going to diminish the intensity. Already insipid lay flavored tomato will not be much better than supermarket tomatoes and not worth the time/effort/space. Varieties that are lacking in fairly strong sweetness will be tangy and astringent.
Large fruited varieties will grow but the fruit size is sometimes reduced in a small container, or else the plant itself will only grow to a certain point, then lose vigor due to constricted root space. I need to research more and trial more varieties because I ran into an interesting lucky find with Spudakee that would grow and grow in a tiny one gallon container and produce cherry-saladette sized, extra yummy fruits (split like crazy though). But another variety I trialed couldn't get over the small, restricted root space and would drop and shrivel blossoms, never setting fruit.
Maglia Rosa -- EXACTLY matches the criteria -- dwarf growth, early, tasty, larger than a cherry and sweet. Hopefully more productive when not suffering from TRM.
But this year's two exceptions have been --
(1) Whippersnapper, which was described as good for hanging baskets -- it sprawls and does not have the strong tendency to grow upwards, rather, willing to hang sideways and down without breaking. Whippersnapper's disadvantage is that it's a Determinate. So early to fruit, but it looks like what I would need to do is lavish care on this variety from the beginning to ensure good production, then possibly have a replacement growing to take it's place, or allow another, later maturing variety to take over it's space in "changing of the guard" succession.
(2) Coyote, which is, in the garden, a MASSIVE and tall indeterminate vine. It has lengthy internodes and insists on growing upwards. It prefers to have a massive root growing space. None of which fit my previously established criteria for Winter Indoor Growing. But what it does have going for it is disposition to start fruiting extremely early, and fruiting in clusters of at least 5-7 and THE SUPERB FLAVOR. Because of it's early fruiting tendencies, I'm considering clone-replacement of overgrown vines several times during the winter as a viable option.
VARIETIES I had success with so far:
Totally Recommended: Coyote, Maglia Rosa, Whippersnapper, Kootenai, Sweet n Neat (pink OP), Yellow Dwarf
Dwarf Arctic Rose (needs at least another season's trial), Sophie's Choice (almost too tangy but strong tomato flavor), Orange Pixie (dwarf OP but growing taller than strictly desired), Spudukee (not as productive as I would like, splits), Donomater (not stable yet though)
STARTING THE SEEDS
For Winter Indoor Tomatoes. I've decided that August 1 or as close to that as possible is the best timing to start the seeds. This allows them to grow in warm conditions for rapid maturity, blossoming and fruit set in ideal conditions before it gets too cold. Then the green fruits will ripen by the holidays to supply a bit of cheer. This year, first of the extra early Coyote and Whippersnapper were ripe before Thanksgiving.
I've tried starting some of the seeds and growing the seedlings outside twice so far, and both times, they became heavily infected by overwhelmingly rampant septoria. Diseased plants won't stand up to the diminished indoor conditions... not to mention the danger of spreading the disease to other plants in the close quarters. So it's best to start the seeds indoors in a better controlled environment.
The seedlings should not be provided with plenty of light and should not be allowed to get stunted -- they should be uppotted in 10-14 day intervals during the first month, then final or near final container by 2nd month... and provided with further enlarged root growing space as needed. I'm experimenting with "adding on" and expanding growing space with sidecar/"external battery" arrangement described earlier in this thread.
... To be continued ...
- applestar
- Mod
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- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
... Continued ...
FUNGUS GNATS is an oft cited problem when growing indoors. When infestation is serious, the larvae will proceed to eat tender root hairs of seedlings and stunt or kill them. Even more mature plants can be affected due to lack of vigor making them susceptible to other infections and infestations, I had a SERIOUS problem with them delaying and stunting growth of my pepper seedlings last year. I've done the blowing them away while outside -- I used a hand air pump for inflating party balloons. Indoors, I use the vacuum cleaner hose to suck up as many flying and crawling gnats as I can, each time, recalling Edna Mose's strict injunction: "Noooo CAPE! No CAPE!" (Incredibles)as the gnats, clinging literally for their live's worth, are vacuumed up by the betraying wings caught up in the airstream.
I decided to trust that Bt var. israelensis is not harmful to human beings
https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/BTgen.pdf
...and that the Mosquito Bits which contain Bti impregnated in ground corn cob bedding do not contain any additional toxic or chemical ingredients in the inactive "Other Ingredients" It has been approved for organic use, FWIW.
I mix a small amount into potting mix, a spoonful in a jug of water, and/or scratch some into the surface. I also sprinkle some in the catch trays so that excess water from the bottom is inoculated and re-absorbed into the bottom of the container soil.
For dealing with the adults, best and least stressful method for me is to set out containers of soapy water to dive into. Flowery or fruity scented suds work the best -- I use a scented children's bubble bath that I bought accidentally. I can't take the smell in a bathtub -- too strong, but a small container can be tolerated. They are best placed near the soil surface level or around the base of the pots. Bright white containers and surfaces attract them very well. When I come across them, I catch and put centipedes in my containers. They will eat earthworm eggs and babies, which can be a negative, but I believe superior control of fungus gnat larvae by the centipedes supersedes this concern.
I used to try controlling fungus gnat adults and larvae on the soil surface by sprinkling ag/hort quality (I.e. NOT heat processed NOT pool filter) diatomaceous powder. But even thorough dusting did not phase the adult gnats -- they simply crawled out covered in white dust and flew off. The powders become useless when dampened.
However, in trying to find a good alternative to perlite -- dry dust from perlite makes me retch and have constricted dry throat, leading to asthma. I feel it's likely to be nearly as dangerous as asbestos when inhaled. And finding pumice gravel to be too heavy in potting mixes and overall expensive. I settled on UltraSorb, which is diatomaceous earth pulverized to perlite size sharp gravel. I get the "plain" kind with no other additives. This is a product often recommended by Bonsai folk for inorganic growing medium. I incorporate something like 1/3 C to 2 cups of potting mix. Sometimes more.
I believe when dry, the DE gravel form dangerously moisture robbing surfaces that help to dry up the gnat larvae and eggs. As they wear down to powder with use, they become like the DE powder. The ag quality DE powders are added to grain and feed and sometimes fed to farm animals as internal vermicide, so I assume they are less harmful -- in any case, they do not cause the respiratory reaction I get from perlite dust.
Combined use of all of these this year has been helping to control the fungus gnats.
...more to follow...
FUNGUS GNATS is an oft cited problem when growing indoors. When infestation is serious, the larvae will proceed to eat tender root hairs of seedlings and stunt or kill them. Even more mature plants can be affected due to lack of vigor making them susceptible to other infections and infestations, I had a SERIOUS problem with them delaying and stunting growth of my pepper seedlings last year. I've done the blowing them away while outside -- I used a hand air pump for inflating party balloons. Indoors, I use the vacuum cleaner hose to suck up as many flying and crawling gnats as I can, each time, recalling Edna Mose's strict injunction: "Noooo CAPE! No CAPE!" (Incredibles)as the gnats, clinging literally for their live's worth, are vacuumed up by the betraying wings caught up in the airstream.
I decided to trust that Bt var. israelensis is not harmful to human beings
https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/BTgen.pdf
...and that the Mosquito Bits which contain Bti impregnated in ground corn cob bedding do not contain any additional toxic or chemical ingredients in the inactive "Other Ingredients" It has been approved for organic use, FWIW.
I mix a small amount into potting mix, a spoonful in a jug of water, and/or scratch some into the surface. I also sprinkle some in the catch trays so that excess water from the bottom is inoculated and re-absorbed into the bottom of the container soil.
For dealing with the adults, best and least stressful method for me is to set out containers of soapy water to dive into. Flowery or fruity scented suds work the best -- I use a scented children's bubble bath that I bought accidentally. I can't take the smell in a bathtub -- too strong, but a small container can be tolerated. They are best placed near the soil surface level or around the base of the pots. Bright white containers and surfaces attract them very well. When I come across them, I catch and put centipedes in my containers. They will eat earthworm eggs and babies, which can be a negative, but I believe superior control of fungus gnat larvae by the centipedes supersedes this concern.
I used to try controlling fungus gnat adults and larvae on the soil surface by sprinkling ag/hort quality (I.e. NOT heat processed NOT pool filter) diatomaceous powder. But even thorough dusting did not phase the adult gnats -- they simply crawled out covered in white dust and flew off. The powders become useless when dampened.
However, in trying to find a good alternative to perlite -- dry dust from perlite makes me retch and have constricted dry throat, leading to asthma. I feel it's likely to be nearly as dangerous as asbestos when inhaled. And finding pumice gravel to be too heavy in potting mixes and overall expensive. I settled on UltraSorb, which is diatomaceous earth pulverized to perlite size sharp gravel. I get the "plain" kind with no other additives. This is a product often recommended by Bonsai folk for inorganic growing medium. I incorporate something like 1/3 C to 2 cups of potting mix. Sometimes more.
I believe when dry, the DE gravel form dangerously moisture robbing surfaces that help to dry up the gnat larvae and eggs. As they wear down to powder with use, they become like the DE powder. The ag quality DE powders are added to grain and feed and sometimes fed to farm animals as internal vermicide, so I assume they are less harmful -- in any case, they do not cause the respiratory reaction I get from perlite dust.
Combined use of all of these this year has been helping to control the fungus gnats.
...more to follow...
- applestar
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- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
Remember the Tatjana I gave up on? I don't know if you would remember it as such, but I sowed some snap pea seeds around it and posted the photo.
Well, a new shoot started to grow from the cut off stick that was all that was left of the Tatjana.... so I decided to expand the root space for them a bit in case the new shoot will be able to resist the TRM (I'm hoping predatory mite population will emerge -- Mt theory is that if the new shoot remains healthy that would be an indication): ...this will only add 1/2 gallon, so I may have to do something more later, but -hey- it's a chance to experiment with my crazy ideas.
The 1/2 gallon grape juice carton contained the Manö that died from the TRM infestation... Or so I thought. When I cut the remaining stick off at the soil level to do this, the stem turned out to be solid green and alive inside. -- but I don't think it's going to be able to recover from being buried by having a bottomless container stuck on top of it.
Well, a new shoot started to grow from the cut off stick that was all that was left of the Tatjana.... so I decided to expand the root space for them a bit in case the new shoot will be able to resist the TRM (I'm hoping predatory mite population will emerge -- Mt theory is that if the new shoot remains healthy that would be an indication): ...this will only add 1/2 gallon, so I may have to do something more later, but -hey- it's a chance to experiment with my crazy ideas.
The 1/2 gallon grape juice carton contained the Manö that died from the TRM infestation... Or so I thought. When I cut the remaining stick off at the soil level to do this, the stem turned out to be solid green and alive inside. -- but I don't think it's going to be able to recover from being buried by having a bottomless container stuck on top of it.
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R. Last show of fruits and a hurrah by this hanging basket Whippersnapper. In the background, Bolivian Rainbow pepper is starting to wake up and leaf out. It was struggling due to aphid infestation, but the indoor ladybug patrol has been working double time , and it is looking great now with fresh new leaves.
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Third blossom opened on the Sugar Sprint peas -- can you see the finished two blossoms on the lower left?
Do they look like tiny pods to you? This other KFC bucket needs to be divided or uppotted (if I still can....
...And the Solstice and Limba broccoli need to be coaxed out from both of them and potted individually.
ETA: Look! found this pod hiding when I turned and rearranged after stringing up another wire trellis (actually a broken power charger cord)
Do they look like tiny pods to you? This other KFC bucket needs to be divided or uppotted (if I still can....
...And the Solstice and Limba broccoli need to be coaxed out from both of them and potted individually.
ETA: Look! found this pod hiding when I turned and rearranged after stringing up another wire trellis (actually a broken power charger cord)
Last edited by applestar on Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: !!! FOUND THE FIRST SNAP PEA POD !!!
Reason: !!! FOUND THE FIRST SNAP PEA POD !!!
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Coyote and Maglia Rosa are going to be keepers for my Winter Indoor Tomatoes lineup. More than anything else, they taste great despite the limited conditions. They also meet three of the important criteria which are (1) very early (2) productive (3) cooler temp tolerant. They are also apparently managing to outpace the TRM Infestation.
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Okay, divided the sugar sprint into two buckets and uppotted the Limba broccoli. There's a 1qt rice milk carton community of 4 sturdy but small seedlings which I relegated to the currently near freezing garage V8 Nursery that is not in these photos, but that's the best light setup spot for short seedlings.
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The upstairs Coyote finally bit the dust. I'm pretty sure upstairs is not as suitable for Winter Indoor Tomato growing because it's warmer = drier.
But I had some Utyonok seedlings in reserve, so I uppotted it after doubling the container capacity to 2 gallons: This window gets the sun from sunrise until the sun turns the house corner. Amount of sun exposure will increase every day now as the sun rises a little earlier and further east every day.
But I had some Utyonok seedlings in reserve, so I uppotted it after doubling the container capacity to 2 gallons: This window gets the sun from sunrise until the sun turns the house corner. Amount of sun exposure will increase every day now as the sun rises a little earlier and further east every day.
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So, DD ate that first pod -- she said it was sweet and yummy
...and we have the next pod developing (Do you see it?) Now, this is small scale. I may try to uppot the Maglia Rosa KFC bucket since it's starting to fall apart. ... Then again, I may not.
-- but I think I will plan on growing a larger "pea patch" in next year's Winter Indoor Garden.
...and we have the next pod developing (Do you see it?) Now, this is small scale. I may try to uppot the Maglia Rosa KFC bucket since it's starting to fall apart. ... Then again, I may not.
-- but I think I will plan on growing a larger "pea patch" in next year's Winter Indoor Garden.
Are those Kentucky Fried Chicken Containers? If they are, that's a creative use of leftover trash! Talk about recycling. How do they stand up to being watered though? I can see that they look like they are getting a bit damaged (at least the one on the right). I don't like using paper containers, because I am always scared that they will wick the water away from the soil, and if I really saturate them, they wind up falling apart of course.