heirloom vs hybrid tomatoes

[rainbowgardener]

I know we've had this discussion before and I know lots of you love your heirlooms. I see the lists of 30 different heirlooms people post. But I never had any experience growing heirlooms. Up til now, I've only had room to grow 5 tomato plants and I never wanted to risk losing any to disease.

This year I will have a little bit more room (new garden plot at my place plus a community garden space), so I planted some of the HG giveaway heirlooms.

So far it has been very interesting and only affirmed my bias against heirlooms...

My two commercial hybrid varieties (this year Delicious and Ultimate Opener), sprouted within 3 days, more or less all at once, and are large, vigorous, seedlings, with at least a 75% germination rate AFTER culling the slowest, spindliest ones, probably around 90% counting those.

I planted 18 seeds of 3 heirloom varieties (SC Pink, Red Boar, and the gold cherry). On the 7th day 5 seedlings showed, and no more in the two days since then. I don't know if any more will yet germinate or if what I have now is what I will get. And the ones that did sprout are showing me what hybrid vigor means. They are smaller, spindlier, slower growing. And they are in exactly the same conditions in the same flat as the hybrids.

Is this typical?

[applestar]

My experience so far is that tomato seeds from different sources have different germination rates and vigor. One year, I had Cherokee Purple from four different sources and Japanese Black Trifele from three, and the seeds from two home saved sources germinated faster, at 100% germination rate, and grew better than seeds from highly recommended commercial sources.

Some foreign source heirloom varieties are said to have been "commercial" variety in their home country. But there are SO many heirloom varieties and different variety tomatoes perform differently.

I've also had tomato seeds/varieties that took forever to germinate and grow but outperformed (at least in growth) later in the season.

But I can't give an accurate comparison of growth and production rate later in the season since I'm not very consistent as a gardener, so I'll leave that part to others, though I think higher production rate is expected of hybrids. But I've had some heirloom varieties that produced way more than I expected.

[Yellowsnow]

I personally only plant heirloom plants. I have very good production and am able to save the seeds every year. While some hybrids grow nice, you can't save the seed. Many strains are copyrighted and must be purchased every year. Other GMO strains are also copyrighted. whether my heirloom plants do well or not, I am at least not supporting the Genetic Modification of food by planting them. If we all grew hybrids the heirloom seeds would die out and then all of our food would be controlled by another. It more about principle with me I guess than production.

With that said, I see nothing wrong with people growing hybrids or whatever they want. If I were growing for more than just my family I would probably go hybrids as well.

[soil]

I started with heirlooms and selectivly bred out the weak, took me a few years but what once were poor yielding heirlooms are now superstars. in fact my own seeds sprout, grow and are stronger than any seed I buy.

[dustyrivergardens]

out of 70 plus varieties of tomatoes I grow about 3 hybrids. over the years I could not tell one from the other unless I looked at the marker or unless they were wispy type or potato leaf types as far as seed germination once in a while I will get poor germination and its probably from my own mistake and over fermented the seeds but I test my seeds germination before I give or sell my seeds.

[digitS']

RainbowGardener, you have given me the excuse to count the tomatoes I will be starting in just a few days! Twenty six varieties with 6 of them hybrids - if I counted right. Last year, there were 29 varieties which was the most evah !

I really enjoy eating, growing and talking about tomatoes! It would be a different garden if there weren't so many plants and so many varieties out there.

There's no question that I rely on those hybrids and have for a long time. Still, I'm going for heirlooms in a big way but only 3 are new-to-me this year. I do not think I'm wasting space on them or even, doing much harm to production in the patch . . .

Taste is subjective. I will risk saying this and hope that it doesn't hurt your feelings, RG. I grew Ultimate Opener Hybrid once. The seed company claimed that it was bigger, earlier and more flavorful than Early Girl. It was only bigger. Now with the heirlooms - some just absolutely delight me with their flavor. That's me.

I will continue to grow Early Girl and Big Beef and the golden cherries. It worries me a little that I don't have much control over the seed from those varieties. Yes, they do seem to have good vigor but I don't see much wrong with the heirlooms in that regard. Especially not the heirlooms that grow from saved seed.

Steve

[mattie g]

I only have enough room to grow 6-10 plants, depending on the variety. Last year I had two Pink Brandywines that went gangbusters, two German Queens that produced fairly well, one Black Krim that grew well but was stunted in a pot, and two Romas that produced quite nicely. Aside from the mid-summer inferno and occasional tropical deluges that halted all fruiting for about 30-45 days (and hurt production after the fact), I honestly have nothing to complain about in regards their production overall. And some of the plants were well in excess of 10' tall - probably closer to 12'. Absolute beasts.

My only comparison with hybrids is my terribly failed attempt at growing Better Boys and Rutgers two years ago (first year with the garden). They croaked just a couple months after planting.

This year I'm going with two of each: Mortgage Lifter, Brandywine, Cherokee Purple, San Marzano, and Valencia. I'm hoping to get similar production this year, especially if we don't get oven-blasted by a heat wave.

[rainbowgardener]

Well, more days later, I still have only 5 seedlings from my 18 heirloom seeds planted, so apparently that's all I'm going to get. Very disappointing! I guess I will plant some of the other varieties Roger sent, see if I can get a few more seedlings...

[Duh_Vinci]

I started with heirlooms and selectivly bred out the weak, took me a few years but what once were poor yielding heirlooms are now superstars. in fact my own seeds sprout, grow and are stronger than any seed I buy.

Two enthusiastic thumbs up, with you on that, having similar experience as well. Tried few "disease resistant" over past years, and I honestly see no difference in their "resistance" compare to heirlooms that I plant...

Well, more days later, I still have only 5 seedlings from my 18 heirloom seeds planted, so apparently that's all I'm going to get. Very disappointing! I guess I will plant some of the other varieties Roger sent, see if I can get a few more seedlings...

Rainbow - over the past 3 years, as much as I like Wild Boar tomatoes, germination (original or my own seeds) has been the most difficult from any varieties I've ever grown.

So to be on the safe side, when I do plant Wild Boar seeds, I soak them in 50% Bleach solution for 30 minutes, rinse them thoroughly and plant the seeds immediately. Germination rate improves dramatically. Exactly the same I do with all the varieties that I have only 4-5 seeds, or if the seeds are very old.

Regards,
D

[Duh_Vinci]

...And the ones that did sprout are showing me what hybrid vigor means. They are smaller, spindlier, slower growing. And they are in exactly the same conditions in the same flat as the hybrids.

Is this typical?

Rainbow, I have to say no, that is not typical. There are many variations in very young seedlings vigor, depending on the variety indeed, specially early in the stages. What happens later - you may be surprised.

For example (since I plant many Oxheart types), majority of their seedlings are very skinny, even cruddy looking at times. But many of them, specially Eastern European and Russian origins hare "wispy foliage" plants. So for up to 6 weeks, by no means those look like any major contenders. That is until I set them in the ground. And good luck keeping them contained...

Just few examples with this year seedlings, all are 1 day shy of 2 weeks from the seeding date. First three are Heirlooms/OP


Siberian Pink Honey

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Lfvstw4/0/O/I-Lfvstw4.jpg[/img]

Danko

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-qSsK8Z6/0/O/I-qSsK8Z6.jpg[/img]

Noire de Crimee (variation of Black Krim)

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-fGxzWKQ/0/O/I-fGxzWKQ.jpg[/img]

And the Hybrid - Early Treat

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-RVH7V32/0/O/I-RVH7V32.jpg[/img]

Hybrid germinated few days later than most, thinner/less vigorous seedlings. But once it goes into the 10gal container in early April (I hope, weather permits), it will catch up quickly and will start producing early fruits just fine...

Don't give up on heirlooms, Rainbow!

Regards,
D

P.S. BTW, I don't think that Delicious is a hybrid, at least didn't started that way...

[soil]

Two enthusiastic thumbs up, with you on that, having similar experience as well. Tried few "disease resistant" over past years, and I honestly see no difference in their "resistance" compare to heirlooms that I plant...

when I used to try planting those types against mine I did notice that as well, but realized that compared to say a bulk tomato seedling supplier and the way most people garden with chemicals and monoculture, you might get a little more resistance. in my polyculture system there is no problem with disease on my heirlooms or any plants.

For example (since I plant many Oxheart types), majority of their seedlings are very skinny, even cruddy looking at times. But many of them, specially Eastern European and Russian origins hare "wispy foliage" plants. So for up to 6 weeks, by no means those look like any major contenders. That is until I set them in the ground. And good luck keeping them contained...

I have also noticed the same thing. some of my newer "heirlooms" have nice neat leaves, well shaped. And then I got to my old style heirlooms and I get the same old gnarly looking growth.

I am about to start all of my wild boar THG giveaway seeds in my sweat chamber the next full moon so well see about germination. I would expect them to do well.

and really all you need is one of each variety to grow and save seeds from this year, then next year you can plant more if you like it.

[rainbowgardener]

I still only have 5 plants from the first 18 seeds of the THG heirloom give away and none yet from the next batch I planted, on 3/1. But the first five are looking sturdier and healthier now that they have true leaves.

And I will say, I potted up my one and only specimen of Solano, gold cherry. I love the smell of tomato plants and this one about knocked my socks off! Usually you have to rub the leaves a little bit or at least touch them, to get that tomato plant smell. The Solano, you just put your nose near it and it is so fragrant! I have no idea if the scent of the plant, has anything to do with the scent/flavor of the tomatoes, but if it does, these will be good!

[soil]

I'm about to start my THG giveaway seeds in an hour or so. the moon is changing to full so we should get pretty good germination.

remember all you need is one seed to grow, then you can save as many seeds as you want come the end of the season.

[rainbowgardener]

That's a pretty remarkable amount of patience! You will have plenty of seeds next year. But in the meantime what if my one Solano seedling dies in hardening off or something? Has been known to happen. That's why I always over plant and hate to have just one or two....

[gixxerific]

I'm about to start my THG giveaway seeds in an hour or so. the moon is changing to full so we should get pretty good germination.

remember all you need is one seed to grow, then you can save as many seeds as you want come the end of the season.

I love this guy.

[Duh_Vinci]

I'm about to start my THG giveaway seeds in an hour or so. the moon is changing to full so we should get pretty good germination...

And thank you for the reminder on the moon phase!

About to start the seeds for grafting: Emperador for the root stock and Everett's Rusty Oxheart for the fruit.

Few spots in the garden always get Fusarium wilt. Tried Kosovo on the same Emperador root stock last year in the place where I knew fusarium is present, and results were exceptional, not a trace. Maybe coincedents, maybe the addition of mycorrhiza specimens, maybe a combination of both. Who knows, all I know, the plant lasted until the frost. So it is worth trying for me again...

Regards,
D

[rainbowgardener]

soil: re I'm about to start my THG giveaway seeds in an hour or so. the moon is changing to full so we should get pretty good germination...

Are you planting the tomato seeds directly in the ground? I don't know where in No Calif you are. I would think for most of the area it's a bit early for tomato seeds in the ground, but I'm not real in touch with your climate.

If you are planting the seeds indoors, do you really think the moon phase makes a difference to indoor planted seeds?

[applestar]

Hmm... interesting. I've never been able to test the theory because I'm a haphazard gardener at best, and I haven't been able to work out all the logistics of seed starting and planting to incorporate moon phases, but my rudimentary understanding of the concept is that tidal forces/gravitational forces and electromagnectic forces due to positions of the sun and moon play a role. So my guess is that indoors or out shouldn't matter.

You know, somebody always mentions the undisturbed taproot when sown directly in the ground vs. started indoors in containers, and obviously there are so many seed starting mixes sterile and not. But I think another factor that can't be dismissed is interaction of living organisms positive as well as negative when sown directly in the ground.

My Haley's Comet (I think that's the name) and Red Boar are up.

[rainbowgardener]

Re: My Haley's Comet (I think that's the name) and Red Boar are up

How long did they take? If you are also doing some hybrids, were they quicker? How many of the Comet and RB came up?

[soil]

they are started in a greenhouse, inside the greenhouse is a sweat chamber similar to doubledog's. so indoors and outdoors lol.

applestar I plant by the biodynamic planting calender. it makes it really easy you should check into it.

[Tonio]

oohh, got to check out teh biodynamic planting calendar. I've been using Reader digest calendar mostly.

[soil]

just a note to those who have had bad germination rates recently. something to think over.

tomato seeds were started weeks ago at the last full moon, for the most part germination rates were good about 190 out of 200. one selected line did not germinate well, 0 out of 10. since they were in the middle of a two hundred cell tray I left them and didn't replant. The next full moon came through in the last few days, and guess what. they have started to sprout over the last few nights. so far two have germinated, if that's all I get I ca still save the line.

also another test tray that I planted a few days after the full moon, germination was poor, it was around 15 out of 72. I left the tray of seeds as usual, and again over the last few days most of them have come up. somewhere around 50 of 72 so far.

my overall point being not that the moon saves non germinated seeds, but really that seeds may take some time to germinate. specially older varieties like heirloom tomatoes. conditions just may not be right yet.

[applestar]

Heh. I was going to post that all of the Haley's Comet germinated, only half of Red Boar and no Berkeley Tie Dye (old seeds). But in the las tcouple of days the rest of the Red Boar came up. I'd say Comet was maybe three days behind the rest of my other heirloom seeds (all home grown - mine and others) -- overall 3-5 days behind the rest. B T-D is still no show but I had to take the six pack tray I used off the heating pad so that may have some relevance. I should try sowing a few more in its own container so it can stay on the mat as long as it needs to.

Considering the overall slow germination of Wild Boar seeds which I experienced last year like others, I may have to chalk them up as lost since even the Full Moon's influence didn't shake them up. For next time, I'll have to try to remember the bleach pretreatment trick, but I'd have to get some first.... I wonder if I could use the pool shock treatment chems somehow....?

FWIW, my 2nd generation Moskovich seeds saved from last year was the first to germinate ahead of all others and with 100% germination, requiring clipping off some that we're too close -- but that was the case with all the others, though few had the stuck in the seed shell issues. I don't do the full blown fermenting thing when saving seeds, though I don't know if that is relevant.

[dustyrivergardens]

your old tomato seeds you might want to try bleaching. I do it all the time soak your tomato seeds for 30 minutes in a solution of 50% clorox bleach and 50% water. rinse well and plant as usual if there a viable seed they will come up shortly....good luck

[Duh_Vinci]

Soil, very interesting observation regarding those germination conditions!

I had few varieties that didn't germinate at all the first go round, I didn't bother replanting the seeds, just left those cells under the heated dome along with the peppers. And yesterday, 3 weeks after seeding (very long in my book), all three, Jumbo Jim Orange, Dynnye and Lithuanian Crested Pink germinated. Sometimes, it just takes longer... Well, even much longer

Happy growing everyone!

Regards.
D

[GardenGnome]

No I wish I knew how many red boar seeds I planted. I think I ended up in 6 to 10 plants.so heirloom seeds you can keep but hybrid seeds will change in the next gen?