Tomato Support/Cages for Containers?

[Duh_Vinci]

...

• 1. What soil do you guys usually use for seed starting? (I've been using store bought organic seed starting mix)
  2. What soil do you guys use for adult plants? (After the seed starting mix)...

I think you will find that the formulas and favorite soil mix brand/recipes are so numerous! And in reality, I think that just about any soil-less seed starting mix, in combination with appropriate amount of moisture and favorable temperature work perfectly fine! Some starting mixes are finer than others, some easier to get moisten and keep moisture a little better... And what you bought should work just fine

But since you are asking what others use, I personally, I prefer Espoma organic mix, I do believe that their Mico-Tone (with micorrhizae) has very positive effect on seedlings vigor and rood development. I also add worm castings to this seed starting mix to provide additional nutrients that in my observation make very noticeable impact on the size and growth rate of the seedlings and their root system. Again, this is my personal preference.

Potting up the seedlings (before transplanting them into the garden or containers), I like to use Espoma Potting Mix, but I do add sand and mushroom compost to make the mix a bit more denser, and still add worm castings as well.

Containers - again, there are as many preferred mixes as gardeners themselves (or just about). I personally find that Sta-Green, specially the blue packaged, mixed with addition of mushroom compost, worm casting, lime and home made compost and extra vermiculite works just fine. And I do re-use the potting soil.

At the end of the season, place all the container used soil in compost bin, and add organic matter throughout the fall/winter, then at the planting time, just adding more mushroom compost and home made compost and lime again.

Regards,
D

[Imperialboy]

So those photos of the soil mixes I've used before would work?
Could I use the seed starting mix, transplant to 4". Then switch to the Black Gold one when transplanting to 1 gallon? Then just use that till adult containers.

[Duh_Vinci]

Sure, I don't see why not...

The only thing I would keep in mind, that most seed starting mixes (possibly the one you pictured as well) are likely NOT to have any nutrients at all. And with that in mind, once the seedlings are with the second set of true leafs, will need some nutrient supplement to give them a "boost", otherwise, they will likely to be very slow at growing.

Transplanting into 1gal container, well, imo is an overkill... Any standard 6" pots would work just fine until final transplant. Saves you the potting mix, space and makes it soooo much easier to transplant the seedlings from 6" to your large container.

As for container construction - SP8 would probably the best to answer you question on construction/cage attachment. He's been doing it for quite some time and with great success.

My containers are simple 10 and 18gal Walmart silver tubs with cheap Walmart cages attached directly to them at 3 points with zip ties. Makes it easy for me to remove the cages, and empty the soil at the end of the season:

[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/826180821_YLuMU-O.jpg[/img]

I don't grow any huge indeterminate varieties in containers, they just do so much better in the garden, so mostly determinates, semideterminates and compact indeterminates for my buckets, and mostly for the early harvesting. And that simple setup works well for me.

Regards,
D

[Imperialboy]

Thanks D
SP8 hasn't been on for awhile. I've referred to him in the first page. I might try his staking/ self watering system with 15 gallons.

So 15 gallons with SP8 method. Then 31 Gallon w/ EarthTainer. It might seem unrealistic now due to the cost of the containers. (Wait for Lowe's/Home Depot coupons

I grow containers mainly, not as a side to the garden.
So for seed starting mix, you'll recommend something like I have pictured + worm castings? Then when transplanting to 4" use potting mix + sand mushroom compost + worm casting + maybe blood/bone? Then transplant again to 1 gallon? Then after that, switch to another mix? Add compost/casting/blood&bone/vermiculite?

I already have the 1 gallon pots from last year and before. I guess I'll just fill up the 4" pots and the rest go into 1 gallon. Then after that, they all go into their adult containers. How many seeds do you put per in the seedling trays? 3? Do you know the disinfect/bleach technique for cleaning old pots?

Confusing. I'm still considered new. My tomato plants from before never yielded well, never grew well. Trying to grow well this year.

I think I'll just use your soil mix. Since you responded and I want to get ready to head to the nursery with a shopping list.

[Duh_Vinci]

Imperial,

I'll try to list step by step what I'd do for containers (considering what you have posted in the pictures), starting with seeds... Again, there are so many different ways, and overtime, you will find what works best for you. And others will chime in as well, it's still winter

1. Seeds: 1-2 seeds per cavity, 2-3 cavity per variety, but I usually keep only 2 seedlings of each (rest are given away) until transplant, then, rest of the seedlings are given away about 1 week later...

2. Seed starting mix: Any sterile seed starting mix - 3 parts of the mix, 1 part of worm casting

3. Transplanting to 4" pots: Same mix as for seed starting (3:1) plus 1 part of sand. After 2nd set of true leafs are good size (or 2 weeks after transplanted), mild, 1/2 strength of balanced fish based fertilizer (3:3:3 or something like that) every other week

4. 1 gal containers (since that is what you are using), 3 parts of your Black Gold mix, 1 part of Mushroom Compost, 1 part of your own compost if you have it, 1 part of sand, 1 part of Vermiculite, 1 part of Perlite, some worm castings.

5. Final container transplant - should really be the same mix as your 1 gal mix. Fertilizer - well, depends on your personal preference. I add hand full of Bone meal, hand full of Tomatotone, and a hand full of lime to the planting hole. Then, every 3 weeks I use same fish based balanced fertilizer and 1/2 tbsp of molasses for every 2 gal of fertilizer mix

Hope this helps, and you will eventually find the mixes that work well for you and your climate/garden.

Regards,
D

[Imperialboy]

So this is my soil shopping list
Seed Starting Mix
Worm Castings
Sand
Fish Fertilizer
Potting Mix
Mushroom Compost
Vermiculite
Perlite
Blood and Bone

Anything I miss? For step4. You use same mix + sand + fish fertilizer. How much fertilizer for a 1 gallon pot?

How much would this cost and how do these sell at the nursery? Is the compost, vermiculite gonna be in different bags? Seems costly and I gonna have to mix pot by pot since I don't have a wheelbarrow or something to mix in.

So that's the soil.
Then I need new seeds and pots. 15 gallon pots, stakes (SP8 method)
31 gallon rubbermaid + materials = earthtainer

Can I use the same soil mixes for herbs I'll grow?
I know Japanese Maples will prob need something else tho if I'm going to try them...

[Duh_Vinci]

How much fertilizer for a 1 gallon pot? - Directions will be on the fertilizer when you buy it, and use 1/2 strength as I suggested.

Can I use the same soil mixes for herbs I'll grow? Yes

Now you got the list, go do some shopping and start planting! Have a good growing season in 2011!

Regards,
D

[Imperialboy]

Kk.

Seed Starting Mix
Worm Castings
Sand
1/2 Strength Fish Fertilizer
Potting Mix
Mushroom Compost
Vermiculite
Perlite
Blood and Bone

Gotta figure out the other supplies besides soil.
So in 10 minutes I did this:

[img]https://i54.tinypic.com/8zpbh4.jpg[/img]

Old seeds. Old soil. Old cells. New life.
I think they're 8. Sugar Sweeties. Just took the seed starting mix, put it in the cells, seeds in, sprinkle soil, mist, saran wrap. Done.

So I got soil checklist, need containers now and I'm good.
How long do you leave your lights on for? And how high/low?

[Imperialboy]

Checklist (To myself, To be added/editted by others)
Soil
Seed Starting Mix
Worm Castings
Sand
1/2 Strength Fish Fertilizer
Potting Mix
Mushroom Compost
Vermiculite
Perlite
Blood and Bone

Containers
(2) 31 Gallon Rubbermaid Containers
15 gallon Pots

Other
Wooden Stake or the Green Plastic Ones?
SEEDS!

....[/I][/u]

[Imperialboy]

Can someone answer these questions? Seems like SP8 is gone..

4. How does the wiring work on this? https://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/SamhainP8/?action=view&current=1.jpg it looks like holes were drilled, but if you look here: https://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/SamhainP8/?action=view&current=BucketFinished.jpg nothing.
5. How do you attach the cage to the container like that? I think this is what TZ is saying as well with the ring cages? https://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/SamhainP8/?action=view&current=Trellis.jpg

[TZ -OH6]

Looks like they put wires through the pot, but it would be more stable to wire the stake to the top lip of the pot, to the side instead of center.


The last one (cage on bucket) might be a poor design. Even if it were wired to the top of the bucket it would be a weak connection.

[Imperialboy]

Looks like they put wires through the pot, but it would be more stable to wire the stake to the top lip of the pot, to the side instead of center.


The last one (cage on bucket) might be a poor design. Even if it were wired to the top of the bucket it would be a weak connection.

Okay. How would you do the cage on the container one?
I'll be using this design on 5 gallon & 15 gallon pots.

Then regular staking methods in EarthTainers.

[TZ -OH6]

Three stakes (bamboo, PVC etc) in the bucket and bind the cage onto them. That would give you more height than having the cage down inside the bucket or the bucket inside the cage (both would be stable too). The stakes would not have to be as tall as the cage (if the cage is sturdy).

[Imperialboy]

So with the cage points that you'll normally stick into the dirt, you wrap those around the stakes?

If you are using this method could you post a photo? Thanks

[Imperialboy]

Alright! Heading out this tmmrw or sometime this week hopefully.
Gonna get

EarthTainer Parts (Gonna start with 1 or 2. If my plants work well/ system works well, I'll try to make more) Cost $40-50 to make one

5 gallon pots and 15 gallon pots
Seed Starting Cells, Trays
Seeds
Water Storage Crystals
Stakes
FERTILIZER: Blood/bone, fish fertilizer, dolo. lime, tomatotone
SOIL: worm castings, seed starting, potting mix, mushroom compost, sand, vermiculite, perlite

That's it for now.
Also gonna start herbs and hopefully Japanese Maples if I can get ahold of some.

[TZ -OH6]

Just tie the stakes to the side of the cage so it can't tip. any material can be used (twine, wire, cable ties, duct tape etc). I would probably make the stakes at least half the height of the cage and tie them off to the cage towards the top of the stakes. The arrangement should be fairly stable and not really NEED to be tied together.

[Imperialboy]

Alright. Then if I need I can flip over another cafe to add height.

[tedln]

When I grew tomatoes in containers, I always used plastic pots because they don't lose as much moisture through the walls as clay pots. With plastic pots, I drilled four holes, evenly spaced, near the top edge around the pot. I would bend the tips of each tomato cage leg up to prevent it punching through the bottom of the pot and sit it into the pot bending the legs outward to contact the sides of the pot. I would then attach four wires to the lowest rung or ring on the cage and insert the opposite end of the wires through the four holes. I put a round metal washer on each wire pulling the wires tightly until the cage was perfectly vertical in the center of the pot. The washers prevent the wires from pulling back through the holes. I then filled my pots with soil.

With the clay pots, I would measure the bottom of the pot and cut a ring out of metal or thick plastic that fits snugly in the bottom of the pot. I would then drill four, evenly spaced holes into the ring near the outer edge and insert the legs of a tomato cage into the holes. After insertion, I would bend each leg over about one inch below the ring. Insert the ring with the cage legs attached and fill the pot with soil. The weight of the soil on top of the ring should prevent the legs from pulling out.

If my tomatoes would grow tall, I often inverted a second tomato cage onto the top of the first tomato cage and wired it in place. By doing that, I usually had enough height to grow cucumbers in the same pots with my tomatoes.

Good Luck

Ted

[Imperialboy]

When I grew tomatoes in containers, I always used plastic pots because they don't lose as much moisture through the walls as clay pots. With plastic pots, I drilled four holes, evenly spaced, near the top edge around the pot. I would bend the tips of each tomato cage leg up to prevent it punching through the bottom of the pot and sit it into the pot bending the legs outward to contact the sides of the pot. I would then attach four wires to the lowest rung or ring on the cage and insert the opposite end of the wires through the four holes. I put a round metal washer on each wire pulling the wires tightly until the cage was perfectly vertical in the center of the pot. The washers prevent the wires from pulling back through the holes. I then filled my pots with soil.

With the clay pots, I would measure the bottom of the pot and cut a ring out of metal or thick plastic that fits snugly in the bottom of the pot. I would then drill four, evenly spaced holes into the ring near the outer edge and insert the legs of a tomato cage into the holes. After insertion, I would bend each leg over about one inch below the ring. Insert the ring with the cage legs attached and fill the pot with soil. The weight of the soil on top of the ring should prevent the legs from pulling out.

If my tomatoes would grow tall, I often inverted a second tomato cage onto the top of the first tomato cage and wired it in place. By doing that, I usually had enough height to grow cucumbers in the same pots with my tomatoes.

Good Luck

Ted

Thanks Ted!
Any photos for how you drill? Might need a small visual example.

[tedln]

I was a container gardener before we had internet gardening forums. I never took any "how to" photos because I didn't have anyone to show them to. I will try to explain it as well as my limited vocabulary will allow.

I always chose wide pots because they provided a better anchor to prevent them tipping over in high winds when the tomatoes were tall. I typically used fifteen gallon plastic horse feed tubs bought at the local farm and ranch store for about $10.00 each. I would measure across the tub to determine the diameter and then multiply the diameter by pi (22/7) to determine the pot circumference. I would divide the circumference by four to determine the spacing for the four holes. I normally used a 1/8" drill bit in a power hand drill to drill the holes at the spacing marked with a magic marker about one inch below the lip of the pot. I always used stainless steel, electric fencing; wire because it is cheap in rolls (I've had my current roll of wire about ten years and use it for everything in the garden). It will never rust. It is very strong.

I hope that answers your question. If it doesn't, then just keep asking and I will continue answering.

Good luck.

Ted

[Imperialboy]

kk. Think I asked the question wrong. Spacing the holes I understand.
With the wires I don't get it with the bending goes through and such. And is this with the $2-3 tomato cages or rolls of CRW ?

[Imperialboy]

kk. Think I asked the question wrong. Spacing the holes I understand.
With the wires I don't get it with the bending goes through and such.
If it's electric fencing what size should I buy or look for?

[DoubleDogFarm]

[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Topbmp-2.jpg[/img]


Ted, Is this what you are talking about?

Eric

[tedln]

That is the idea Eric. Thank you! I don't think the electric fence wire comes in different sizes. It's real thin wire, probably 1/32" thick. It doesn't have to be thick because it is the electrical shock that keeps the cattle inside the fence, not the thickness or strength of the wire.

The farmers in Africa use the same wire to fence in their crops to keep the wild animals out of the farm. Elephants have learned to pick one member of the herd and push that unlucky member through the fence and then they can all go in and munch away on the farmers crop.

Ted

[tedln]

Imperialboy,

I'm not an artist so I can't give you a drawing like Eric provided so I will try to describe it.

Clay Pots with ring in the bottom.

Imagine drilling three or four holes in the ring (depending on how many legs the cages have) evenly spaced. Drill the holes large enough for the legs to go through and extend through the holes about 1". Bend each leg extension into an L shape below the ring to prevent the legs from pulling out of the drilled holes.

If the clay pots are small and possibly will not have enough soil to hold the rings down in the bottom, you can also use a masonry drill bit and drill a few extra drain holes in bottom of the pot. Place a cage leg through each hole and place a large flat washer over each leg up against the pot. Bend each leg into an L below the washer. The purpose of the washer is to distribute the pressure from each leg over a larger area reducing the possibility of breaking the pot. The pot will then be sitting on top of the bent legs and large washers.

Plastic Pots

Bend each leg of the cage straight up (about 1" long) to form a round shape on the bottom of each leg instead of the sharp point they normally have. If you choose, you can even wrap plastic electrical tape thickly around the bottom of each leg to provide more cushion between the legs and the pot.This prevents the legs from punching through the bottom of the plastic pots as you apply pressure with the tie down wires and weight of the tomato plants. Bend each leg outwards to contact the pot sides at the inside bottom of the pot for stability. A pair of long handled pliers works well because the fencing wire and cage legs are soft metal.

Ted

[Imperialboy]

So then basically. I take the end of the cage (pointy straight wire) bend it upward. Then bring it up the the holes on the top then bend that wire outwards.

So then I stick the cage in the container to the bottom, bend it all the way back to the top holes from the bottom?

I only use plastic pots.

[tedln]

So then basically. I take the end of the cage (pointy straight wire) bend it upward. Then bring it up the the holes on the top then bend that wire outwards.

So then I stick the cage in the container to the bottom, bend it all the way back to the top holes from the bottom?

I only use plastic pots.

No! The cage legs stick down into the soil with the very bottom tips of each leg bent up against itself. Each leg is also bent slightly towards the sides of the pot to widen the stance at the inside bottom of the pot.

It's the same idea of you standing with your legs spread apart providing more stability than if you stand with your feet and legs close together.

Ted

[DoubleDogFarm]

Ted,

Not trying to be rude, just trying to help.

I like simple. I would just drill 3 or 4 holes in the bottom of the plastic container. 3 or 4 depends on how many legs. Just push the legs through, bend each leg to 90 degree and you are done. The 3 or 4 guy-wire may or may not be needed.

I like the disc idea also

[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Topbmp-1.jpg[/img]

Eric

[Imperialboy]

Kk. I got the bending idea down.
Thanks.

Eric; Ted had said the holes on the bottom wouldn't work as well as the water would drain through near the bottom.

So with the 4 wires attached to the lowest rung through opposite hole. I just wrap wire around the cage then bring it across to the hole on other side?

I'll photoshop a photo of that later on my other computer

[tedln]

All help appreciated Eric. I don't mind drilling the extra holes in the bottom of the plastic pot. A little extra drainage won't hurt, but I would be concerned with the weight of the pot, soil, and water, sitting on the legs bent at ninety degrees. My concern is the fact that the excess weight could cause the plastic to break above each bent leg. Clay pots with the big washers would work and big washers used on the plastic pots may be enough to distribute the weight protecting the plastic.

Ted

[DoubleDogFarm]

Ted,

I believe 99.5% of the plastic pot would be resting on the ground. The wire is what 1/8" diameter? So not much of a gap. If we are talking the big black nursery puts, they are really tough and flexable.

Eric

[tedln]

Your probably right Eric.

Coincidentally, I was looking at some new large pots at Walmart yesterday for flowers. They have these really large pots that have that Mexican pottery appearance with the rustic stone finish. I picked one up thinking it would weigh about thirty pounds. It actually weighed about 1/2 pound because it was simply a plastic foam pot like the Styrofoam beer coolers with a pretty finish on it. They cost about $25.00 each and don't feel like they could last an entire summer full of soil.

Ted

[Imperialboy]

I just use the typical nursery pots.

[Imperialboy]

So just made this quickly.:

[img]https://i52.tinypic.com/103snd5.jpg[/img]

That's all you do for the bending.
What about for the hole drilling. The arrow shows the last rung to attach the four wires. But I'm lost after that.

[tedln]

I can't think of anything to do after you get the wires attached other than add soil and grow some tomatoes.

You will find it easier to attach the wires to the washers first and then feed each wire through each hole to the bottom or even the second ring on the cage. That allows you to adjust the vertical alignment of the cage as you wrap the wires. Try to attach the wires where a ring and a leg on the cage have a junction. It isn't mandatory, but it does make the connection stronger with less probability of breaking the welds holding the rings together.

Good Luck and happy gardening.

Ted

[Imperialboy]

So then that's all to do? Still don't get the hole drilling and how to attach cage through the holes. Think I'll just give up on it and just use the bending technique.

Still trying to figure out this: [img]https://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/SamhainP8/Trellis.jpg[/img]

Or should I just stake it like this?
[img]https://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/SamhainP8/BucketSupport.jpg[/img]

Instead drill holes on top and bring the wire from the stake, to the side of the container and run it all the way up along the container through the top hole.

Would that stake way be better or the cage?

[tedln]

If you will move the wires to the top of the bucket and attach them to the cage instead of the stake, that is what I am talking about. I don't know any other way to say it, but the wires need to be at the top of the pot instead of the bottom of the pot. Think about a tall radio or television tower with cables (guy wires) attached to it. The cables extend downward from the tower at an angle and are attached to concrete anchors at the bottom. By attaching the wires near the top of the pot and to the cages at an upward angle, you are mimicking the principle of holding a skinny tower up with guy wires.

Eric, with your artistic skills can you make a side view of the pot with the cage in it showing where the wires need to attach through the side of the pot at the top and extend to the cage at an angle serving as guy wires. I don't know any other way to explain it.

Imperialboy, do you understand that no part of the cage should be outside of the pot? The cage, legs included needs to be inside the pot. The wooden stake isn't needed. The only thing extending to the outside of the pot are the wires with the washers attached outside the pot.

I can't think of any other way to say it or explain it. If I had a pot and a cage, I would build one, take some photos, and post them; but I don't.

Ted

[Imperialboy]

Guess it's up to Eric
So then you have wires attached to the the bend at the bottom up through holes at the top?

I'll just wait for Eric..