I have decided to not start any more seeds in small peat pots, too many problems. I have heard positive things about seed starting trays. I found some items around the house that might work: Clear plastic trays, 2 inches deep, 10 inches long, 7 inches wide. I have drilled 6 drainage holes in the bottom, it seems like I can get about 15-20 seeds started in here. Some warmth and moisture,let's go. I just wondered if clear plastic is a problem, light on the soil?
I think it's time they "Outlawed Peat" pots....
-
rainbowgardener
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 25279
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
- Location: TN/GA 7b
Absolutely agree that peat pots should be outlawed, along with the "mini-greenhouse" seed-starting thingies they get people to spend money on.
I don't see that the clear plastic should be a problem though I haven't really tried it. The problem is, it seems like that set up makes it hard to do bottom watering. I use trays just to put pots (or cells) in. Then I pour some water in the bottom of the tray and let the soil just soak up what it needs from the bottom.
Watering from the top, I think it is a lot harder to water enough but not too much and seeds and baby seedlings are very sensitive to either under or over watering.
Do you have a bigger tray you could set those trays in? (Also prevents mess on whatever surface your trays sit on, in case some water drips through)
I don't see that the clear plastic should be a problem though I haven't really tried it. The problem is, it seems like that set up makes it hard to do bottom watering. I use trays just to put pots (or cells) in. Then I pour some water in the bottom of the tray and let the soil just soak up what it needs from the bottom.
Watering from the top, I think it is a lot harder to water enough but not too much and seeds and baby seedlings are very sensitive to either under or over watering.
Do you have a bigger tray you could set those trays in? (Also prevents mess on whatever surface your trays sit on, in case some water drips through)
-
applestar
- Mod
- Posts: 30543
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
I agree trays and community pots are great for starting seeds. There are more soil and moisture levels are more moderated than individual containers.
However, I feel that at 2" depth these would be barely deep enough for STARTING smaller seeds like lettuce, still needing to be pricked out at young stage. As I mentioned in the other thread, 3" is a better depth.
Remember that even when filled to the rim, the soil will settle down some and you'll lose some of the soil depth. When containers are shallower, the plants compensate by spreading roots further, resulting in more tangled up roots -- and transplant shock when you need to separate and up pot.
I don't believe the clearness will affect them that much -- the inside surfaces will be covered with algae fairly quickly anyway, but they will give you opportunity to observe the way roots grow, so I recommend experimenting wit them but perhaps not for your main production.
However, I feel that at 2" depth these would be barely deep enough for STARTING smaller seeds like lettuce, still needing to be pricked out at young stage. As I mentioned in the other thread, 3" is a better depth.
Remember that even when filled to the rim, the soil will settle down some and you'll lose some of the soil depth. When containers are shallower, the plants compensate by spreading roots further, resulting in more tangled up roots -- and transplant shock when you need to separate and up pot.
I don't believe the clearness will affect them that much -- the inside surfaces will be covered with algae fairly quickly anyway, but they will give you opportunity to observe the way roots grow, so I recommend experimenting wit them but perhaps not for your main production.
A cookie box, Hardland?hardland wrote:I have decided to not start any more seeds in small peat pots, too many problems. I have heard positive things about seed starting trays. I found some items around the house that might work: Clear plastic trays, 2 inches deep, 10 inches long, 7 inches wide. I have drilled 6 drainage holes in the bottom, it seems like I can get about 15-20 seeds started in here. Some warmth and moisture,let's go. I just wondered if clear plastic is a problem, light on the soil?
I think it's time they "Outlawed Peat" pots....
Here they are in the warmth on top my fridge:
[img]https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/Digit_007/SpringOh8001.jpg[/img]
Top cut off and used for a tray, in the greenhouse:
[img]https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/Digit_007/SpringOh8005.jpg[/img]
The seedlings transplanted into inserts and flat:
[img]https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/Digit_007/SpringOh8009.jpg[/img]
Lots of cookies to eat but somebody's gotta do it
!Steve
Except for watering frequency, depth isn't that important since the plant will be put deeper when you pot up. The four pack cell inserts I use for starting seeds are about 2" deep and I have used shallower pans from fozen dinners etc. I have also used both clear pots and pans. We get porkchops in 3" deep clear plastic trays/pans, which will grow 6 peppers to planting size the old fashioned way where you have to cut root blocks as they grow. I usually start seeds in the smallest container possible to save space (5-10 seeds in each 1.5"x2" cell of the inserts).
-
applestar
- Mod
- Posts: 30543
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
Looks great, Steve!
Your photos confirm my thoughts (and what Rainbow mentioned) -- that flats are more easily used when you have a greenhouse type environment where you can let water drip through/down without worrying about the mess everywhere.
TZ - you posted while I was writing up mine.
It's true that shallower or smaller containers can be used if you're diligent about the timing for uppotting. In individual cell-type containers, the roots are contained -- but more reason to only grow one plant in each cell -- and they'll still fill the cell and strangle themselves if you let them. Some plants are less prone to root disturbance and transplant shock too. Over all, it's just a matter of experience.
But it's so easy to let the fast-growing seedlings get ahead of you.
And I did notice a difference when growing them in difference depth and sized containers. So I'll still maintain that deeper is better. I'm tending more towards community containers, drinking cups, and recycled 1 qt containers and cut-off soda bottles for that reason. 
(Oh! and origami newspaper pots - I still have to post the folding directions one of these days....)
Your photos confirm my thoughts (and what Rainbow mentioned) -- that flats are more easily used when you have a greenhouse type environment where you can let water drip through/down without worrying about the mess everywhere.
TZ - you posted while I was writing up mine.
It's true that shallower or smaller containers can be used if you're diligent about the timing for uppotting. In individual cell-type containers, the roots are contained -- but more reason to only grow one plant in each cell -- and they'll still fill the cell and strangle themselves if you let them. Some plants are less prone to root disturbance and transplant shock too. Over all, it's just a matter of experience.
But it's so easy to let the fast-growing seedlings get ahead of you.
And I did notice a difference when growing them in difference depth and sized containers. So I'll still maintain that deeper is better. I'm tending more towards community containers, drinking cups, and recycled 1 qt containers and cut-off soda bottles for that reason. (Oh! and origami newspaper pots - I still have to post the folding directions one of these days....)The cookie boxes have holes punched in the bottom, as Hardland did. They are set in a basin to soak up water and then left to drain on the covered deck, overnight. (Around March 1st, they haven't frozen solid out there yet but that's a risk .)
You can't see it but I've carefully made a tray out of aluminum foil as tightly as I can to completely cover the top of the fridge. And then, covered that with multiple layers of newspaper.
Seeds are sown on the soil surface in the cookie boxes and starting mix is sprinkled on top. The fully-loaded cookie box is then brought in and set on the fridge. I have to watch them closely as the seedlings will almost instantly stretch when they emerge looking for more light than house lighting amounts to.
They are then moved to a sunny indoor window for just a few days. I need to get them out into the greenhouse before I start the bottom watering. Dear Wife only allows me so many muddy drips in the house . . .
Steve
.)You can't see it but I've carefully
made a tray out of aluminum foil as tightly as I can to completely cover the top of the fridge. And then, covered that with multiple layers of newspaper.Seeds are sown on the soil surface in the cookie boxes and starting mix is sprinkled on top. The fully-loaded cookie box is then brought in and set on the fridge. I have to watch them closely as the seedlings will almost instantly stretch when they emerge looking for more light than house lighting amounts to.
They are then moved to a sunny indoor window for just a few days. I need to get them out into the greenhouse before I start the bottom watering. Dear Wife only allows me so many muddy drips in the house . . .
Steve
I just started a dozen new seeds in plastic drink cups, 3" wide x 2" deep. I realize now what you mean about 2" being a bit shallow, even for tomato seedlings. As soon as I bottom watered them, the soil dropped 1/2". I'll start some more in 3"+ pots. I also started some in a 9" x 6" plastic tray, I cut 1/2" drainage holes in the cups and trays. For couriosties sake I weighed a cup and the tray before and after bottom watering, the tray weighed 180 grams more, the cup 18 grams more, this after being left in the water for just a minute or so. seems like the tray picked up around 6oz of water and each cup about 1/2oz of water. This soil is like a sponge!
If the soil level is dropping you haven't tamped down mix enough before sowing the seeds. The mix should be pretty damp before you put it in the tray or pot.
Here are a couple of pictures to show the density that is possible. The pots are 3"x3" cells (18 per flat), and less than 3" deep. I find that the final seedling growth rate is due to the conditions and soil mix used after potting up. These went in the ground as healthy 8"-10" plants at 7 weeks old.
As for watering, If you compare total vegetation in the pot with a single larger seedling three to four weeks later you will find that the single seedling pulls more water.
at germination:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5151643714/
Ready for potting up due to self shading, but they could go a little longer
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5151645292/
I generally can't do this because I rarely grow more than 2-3 plants of any one variety, but this was a cross where I needed to germinate alot of plants in order to separate out the minor portion with the traits I wanted. In this case dwarfs and potato leafs.
I will also start seeds this densly for the peppers that I need many of a single variety (anchos etc).
My lights- table top in the spare bedroom is not very big (I can fit 4-5 flats on it) and I have to walk everything to the bathroom at other end of the house to water, so the more plants I can fit in a pot the easier it is. The peppers (seen under the pot of tiny tomato seedlings) are generally started and potted up at the time I start tomatoes.
Here are a couple of pictures to show the density that is possible. The pots are 3"x3" cells (18 per flat), and less than 3" deep. I find that the final seedling growth rate is due to the conditions and soil mix used after potting up. These went in the ground as healthy 8"-10" plants at 7 weeks old.
As for watering, If you compare total vegetation in the pot with a single larger seedling three to four weeks later you will find that the single seedling pulls more water.
at germination:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5151643714/
Ready for potting up due to self shading, but they could go a little longer
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5151645292/
I generally can't do this because I rarely grow more than 2-3 plants of any one variety, but this was a cross where I needed to germinate alot of plants in order to separate out the minor portion with the traits I wanted. In this case dwarfs and potato leafs.
I will also start seeds this densly for the peppers that I need many of a single variety (anchos etc).
My lights- table top in the spare bedroom is not very big (I can fit 4-5 flats on it) and I have to walk everything to the bathroom at other end of the house to water, so the more plants I can fit in a pot the easier it is. The peppers (seen under the pot of tiny tomato seedlings) are generally started and potted up at the time I start tomatoes.
I've ordered some item #6555 seeding cell trays from the following website.
https://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/seedlingtrays.asp
Each cell is 3 1/4" deep and the 36 cell trays will sit in the standard 1020 seedling tray for bottom watering. I am experimenting with growing a single tomato seedling in each cell under lights. My goal is to grow the seedlings from seed to seedlings ready to plant out without up potting. At the same time those seedlings are growing in the cells, I have also planted some tomato seed in clear plastic flats similar to the cookie containers. I have up potted those seedlings to 4" square pots. The flat had about 1" of soil less mixture. The seedlings were up potted at two weeks of age. None of them had developed true leaves. I simply pulled them straight out of the soil. I could hear the new roots tearing as they were pulled, but they are doing fine after up potting. Both the cells and flat were seeded on October 22. The seedlings from the flats were up potted two weeks later. I am photographing both the cells and square pots every Friday afternoon to record the growth differences for eight weeks. If the cells work, I will not worry about up potting my seedlings in the future. They will be grown in the cells and planted out from the cells.
Ted
https://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/seedlingtrays.asp
Each cell is 3 1/4" deep and the 36 cell trays will sit in the standard 1020 seedling tray for bottom watering. I am experimenting with growing a single tomato seedling in each cell under lights. My goal is to grow the seedlings from seed to seedlings ready to plant out without up potting. At the same time those seedlings are growing in the cells, I have also planted some tomato seed in clear plastic flats similar to the cookie containers. I have up potted those seedlings to 4" square pots. The flat had about 1" of soil less mixture. The seedlings were up potted at two weeks of age. None of them had developed true leaves. I simply pulled them straight out of the soil. I could hear the new roots tearing as they were pulled, but they are doing fine after up potting. Both the cells and flat were seeded on October 22. The seedlings from the flats were up potted two weeks later. I am photographing both the cells and square pots every Friday afternoon to record the growth differences for eight weeks. If the cells work, I will not worry about up potting my seedlings in the future. They will be grown in the cells and planted out from the cells.
Ted
When I have a plastic ice cube tray crack and I replace it, I take the old tray and poke holes in the bottom, then use them for seed starting. I fill it with starter mix, plant 1 seed in each cell, then place the tray in a shallow tray of water until saturated. Then I place in the shade outside and make sure it doesn't dry out. It works.
I can see how your procedure would work in Florida. In North Texas and areas further North, the ice tray would simply be full of ice cubes made of wet potting soil and a seed. If I waited for weather warm enough to germinate outside, the resulting plants probably wouldn't have time to bloom before the summer heat arrives.Garf wrote:When I have a plastic ice cube tray crack and I replace it, I take the old tray and poke holes in the bottom, then use them for seed starting. I fill it with starter mix, plant 1 seed in each cell, then place the tray in a shallow tray of water until saturated. Then I place in the shade outside and make sure it doesn't dry out. It works.
Ted
One thing I learned early on is that the more room I give a plant for roots, the larger (and healthier) it will be at planting time.
I start in cell flats as small as 200 cells per tray for veggies and 288 cell flats for flowers and slow growing plants. Sometimes, I cut them down to save a bit of room if I don't need the entire cell tray.
I move the tomatoes up in 10-14 days to deep cell (about 5" deep) flats - like a root trainer. They stay there for 2-3 weeks and then are moved up to 1 gal pots to stay until planting time. The roots are amazing and the plants are just thrilled to keep moving up. My plants are 18-24 inches tall at planting out - about 8 weeks from starting the seeds. I also plant deeper every time I move them up so they have a super healthy root system.
I use the jumbo plug trays (#6555) to move up most flowers and some veggies until planting out that don't grow at the rate of tomatoes. I wouldn't recommend using them for tomatoes until planting out as the tomatoes will become rootbound and they do not like that.
I like using the cell trays/flats because they take up only the needed space. They can be used for years if you take the time to clean them out with some bleach and water. I do that with all of my pots and trays so after the initial investments (grow your stock of seeding and planting tools as you can), the only cost is the seed starting material and seeds.
Of course, everyone has their own timing in the life of a seedling/plant for planting out and because we have such a short season here in Vermont, I want the best start possible.
I do realize that space can be a premium for growing seedlings. I use metal shelves - 5 shelves at 4' x 18" wide. I use 2 t8 shop lights with 4 6500k bulbs per shelf. I have another set of lights that have more vertical space for taller plants. I also have two mini greenhouses - 5'x6'x3' high - where the plants spend a lot of time beginning late April. they flourish in the daylight and heat in the "tents" and grow much faster than in the house.
tedln, I've been getting my seed starting materials from another source and the one you noted is about 33% cheaper for the same products. Thank you for the great tip!
I start in cell flats as small as 200 cells per tray for veggies and 288 cell flats for flowers and slow growing plants. Sometimes, I cut them down to save a bit of room if I don't need the entire cell tray.
I move the tomatoes up in 10-14 days to deep cell (about 5" deep) flats - like a root trainer. They stay there for 2-3 weeks and then are moved up to 1 gal pots to stay until planting time. The roots are amazing and the plants are just thrilled to keep moving up. My plants are 18-24 inches tall at planting out - about 8 weeks from starting the seeds. I also plant deeper every time I move them up so they have a super healthy root system.
I use the jumbo plug trays (#6555) to move up most flowers and some veggies until planting out that don't grow at the rate of tomatoes. I wouldn't recommend using them for tomatoes until planting out as the tomatoes will become rootbound and they do not like that.
I like using the cell trays/flats because they take up only the needed space. They can be used for years if you take the time to clean them out with some bleach and water. I do that with all of my pots and trays so after the initial investments (grow your stock of seeding and planting tools as you can), the only cost is the seed starting material and seeds.
Of course, everyone has their own timing in the life of a seedling/plant for planting out and because we have such a short season here in Vermont, I want the best start possible.
I do realize that space can be a premium for growing seedlings. I use metal shelves - 5 shelves at 4' x 18" wide. I use 2 t8 shop lights with 4 6500k bulbs per shelf. I have another set of lights that have more vertical space for taller plants. I also have two mini greenhouses - 5'x6'x3' high - where the plants spend a lot of time beginning late April. they flourish in the daylight and heat in the "tents" and grow much faster than in the house.
tedln, I've been getting my seed starting materials from another source and the one you noted is about 33% cheaper for the same products. Thank you for the great tip!
This is one of the style of trays I use. I also use egg cases and old ice cube trays.
[img]https://www.mastercontrollinelinksite.info/Gardening/ml1c.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.mastercontrollinelinksite.info/Gardening/ml1c.jpg[/img]
Last edited by Garf on Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.