An Argument against Heirlooms

[cottonpicker]

I grow for flavor...period... and, the ONLY hybrids I now grow are Sungold (every year since about 1989) and Super Fantastic. Better Boy also gave good tasting fruits in the past; however, MOST other hybrids were too thick-skinned or simply flavorless in my opinion. Granted, hybrids are "sometimes" more productive than heirlooms, but heirlooms are also MORE LIKELY to give a superior tasting fruit in my opinion. They are sometimes ugly by comparison, but I challenge anyone to grow a hybrid that is any "prettier" than Eva Purple Ball. She's perfect .... and, tastes great! I continue to grow mostly heirlooms but am not adverse to also having Sungold & a few other hybrids too! Why not have the best of BOTH worlds?
LarryD

[TZ -OH6]

Hi Larry, I either missed your other posts or didn't realize it was you. Good to see you over here.

[gixxerific]

Another reason I'm a Heirloom guy now is I'm thoroughly played out on the normal fare of hybrids. Growing the same kinds year after year gets old.

There is so many different looking, tasting tomatoes out there. I gotta have some change.

[stella1751]

Another reason I'm a Heirloom guy now is I'm thoroughly played out on the normal fare of hybrids. Growing the same kinds year after year gets old.

There is so many different looking, tasting tomatoes out there. I gotta have some change.

This pretty much explains why I'm growing these, Gix. I want to try something different. I'm glad I did; this is a wonderful learning experience. Once I've tasted it, maybe I will never grow a hybrid again. I just want the opportunity to taste it.

I see Tedlin started a thread titled "Anticipation," and I think of that word every time I go outside to check these Deliciouses. His thread, of course, had to do with eating the tomato, but I think of the word in terms of production. One day, there will be a fruit. One day. And it will be a good one. And I'm NOT giving it to anyone. I am going to take that puppy into the house, and I'm going to eat it. I won't even give the dogs the ends, like I usually do. They can grow their own.

Along those lines, here's a question regarding my blossoms' failure to set. I have been watching one blossom in particular for about a week now. The stigma (the center green protrusion) is clearly alive and engorged, like it has been pollinated. The petals and, I think, anthers are brown shards clinging to the base of the blossom, which is not shrinking or otherwise dying. Each day, that stigma seems to get a little bigger, a little longer. It's like it's making a tomato, but can't get the job done. Or is this the way heirlooms make fruit: slowly?

I think there are huge differences between the two types of tomatoes, and I wonder whether some of those differences lie in the way they create that tomato. My hybrids got the job done overnight; my heirloom has been working on this one potential tomato for at least a week.

[gixxerific]

Go out there and give them a shake every now and than. What has the weather been like there. Probably not as hot as here but that will hurt all tomato production.

Be patient, if you can, look at me telling you to be patient. I'm the most impatient person on the planet.

All the tomatoes I have had so far have been simply amazing. I'm a black tomato fan for life they have such different flavor characteristics.

Good luck Stella it will all be good.

By the way any tomato you grow be it hybrid or OP will be better than those grocery store wanna be's. Those are usually grown to look good never mind the taste. A lot of the times the are picked green than gassed to further the ripening. SO they can be nice and perfect and red at the store. I saw a video of apple production once they went through like 15 processes to make them more appealing, this was after being picked. But you have to figure no one is going to buy a cracked up irregular fruit from the store so they have to make them "LOOK" good.

[TZ -OH6]

A bad flower will drop off at the absiscion zone in a couple of days. A pollinated one will wither the petals, but if the pollination is only partially effective due to hot weather etc the development can stall while a hormone war goes on inside the flower. I've also had pea-sized fruit sit around for weeks until the older tomatoes on the truss ripended. Then they started to grow. Its true that the hybrids are generally going to be better about fruit set, but that is more a fact that they would not have been released to the public by the breeder if they were not superior in some basic traits, not from the fact that they are hybrids. Old commercial OP varieties such as Rutgers, Super Souix etc. are going to be more reliable about setting fruit than Brandywine. There is also the question of flower morphology. A beefseak flower may not set fruit as easily as a round standard fruit.


Some OP varieties are more finicky than others under certain conditions. The trick is to grow several different varieties so that the ones that are behaving themselves draw your attention away from the problem children.

[cottonpicker]

GOOD balanced thread!!!

Nice, rational discussion!!!

LarryD

[applestar]

This year, I'm growing mostly Heirlooms, a few OP's, and no hybrids. With a few exceptions, they are all setting fruit now. One has answered my efforts by ripening in time for the June Tomato Race . With tomatoes planted in gardens on all three sides of the house, walking the garden is particularly fun right now -- the little green fruits are growing in all different shapes, sizes, and cluster counts. Some tomatoes are even streaked. Later on, I know I'll be enjoying the different colors -- red, pink, orange, cream, yellow, "purple", "black" and striped!

Of course you can do this by growing hybrid tomatoes too. But once you start growing them from seed, saving the seeds from favored tomatoes, whether for flavor, color, earliness, size, or ability to resist or overcome diseases that others have succumbed to, so you can enjoy them again from year to year seems like a logical next step. The fun, too, is in sharing the seeds.

[stella1751]

Okay, then. There definitely is a hormone war going in inside that one blossom I described. It's not dying like the others, not withering and then dropping "off at the absiscion zone in a couple of days." It's been thinking tomato for a week, still is, in fact.

I'll lose it today, I suppose. The highs for today and tomorrow will be mid-90's. There's the problem: The temperatures. If the forecast is for 80's, we drop below 50 at night. If the nightly temperatures are a tomato-pleasing 55, we rise above 90 during the day.

Nevertheless, I do have hope now, TZ -OH6. Thanks!

Gix, I shake those cages whenever I walk past them. I read the following study about greenhouse pollination while trying to figure these Deliciouses out. It cited facts regarding artificial means of encouraging pollination. Vibration appears to be the best bet. Even though we generally have at least 10 MPH breezes each day, I figured it wouldn't hurt to try.

[url]https://www.beeculture.com/content/pollination_handbook/tomato.html[/url]

Interestingly, one researcher was quoted saying that "probably because of the peculiar structure of the flower and the absence of nectar," honey bees don't pollinate tomatoes as frequently as do bumble bees. I'd have bumble bees if my blasted bulldog mix didn't kill each one that strays onto our property.

LarryD, the first thing I did after reading your first post was to google-image the Eva Purple Ball. You are right: She's gorgeous! When I bought these seeds, I had narrowed my choice down to three of the loveliest: Thessalaniki (sp), Mortgage Lifter, and Delicious. I chose Delicious because of its relatively short growing season.

I think I do need to consider the seed-savers exchange, saving seeds from a Delicious (if I get one) and trading them in on something different for next year. I will have make certain the recipient knows there is no warranty on this product

[Alan in Vermont]

Monsanto is not in the business of making a better tomato plant. They are in the business of making money!
The first thing a gardener should grow is a brain

It sure is a good thing Monsanto exists, if not some of you people would be hard pressed for something to inject into a thread. I didn't see anything in the thread title or first post that made any mention of Monsanto or ant of the other evil companies who do things to make money.

Give it a rest already!

[cottonpicker]

Stella1751........

IF you wish to try EPB next year, give me a holler. I've got a few extra (Commercial source) seeds. Will gladly share....

LarryD

[applestar]

Monsanto was mentioned in the linked article as researching GM tomatoes combining traits from heirloom and hybrid varieties.

[petalfuzz]

Stella, I still think you should try more than one variety. If you don't know where to start, try Amy Goldman's "The Heirloom Tomato." She doesn't recommend the Delicious variety except for competitive growing. Also plants do seem to take their sweet time making fruit. Once you start to see the flowers turn into tiny fruit, it'll still be about 6 weeks till you get a ripe one.

I have a very small garden and grew 2 types my first year (not heirlooms); then 8 types my 2nd year (all open-pollinated, not all heirlooms); and 7 types this year. From year 2 to year 3, only 2 kinds made my "cut" and are being grown again. Of course, I had a late start and my plants are still only inches tall, so I've got even more of a wait than you.

[rainbowgardener]

I grow only hybrid tomatoes... I have a city lot, mostly shaded with one 4x8' bed in which I can grow tomatoes. No more than 5 plants, 3 varieties this year. I also grow in the Ohio River Valley with high temps and extremely high humidity, lots of summer rain. Great conditions for fungal diseases. So my tomatoes HAVE to be reliable strong producers with good disease resistance. If I sacrifice top flavor to get that reliable strong producer, so be it. My tomatoes are still way better than grocery store ones.

The fact that there are umpteen thousand different heirloom varieties doesn't help me out any. I don't have room to experiment with a lot of varieties to figure out which ones work best for me.

That said this will be my last year for growing Early Girl, which wasn't any earlier than the Ultimate Opener and only beat Big Beef by a few days. The EG was quite disappointing in flavor. But the other two are excellent. There are plenty of good hybrids with good flavor, whether or not they would win contests.

Everyone has to do what works for them!

[stella1751]

I had a thought. I've grown yellow pears successfully, time and again. My ex-neighbor was crazy for them, so I always bought a plant or two. They are huge producers up here. They're a heirloom, aren't they?

Right now, without having tasted the fruit from these Deliciouses, I'm a hybrid fan simply because they can overcome our temperature extremes. I am confident I will receive tons of tomatoes from each plant. I'm a heirloom fan because they pose an interesting challenge. One tomato from my Delicious will mean more to me than the 70 or 80 I got from each of my Lemon Boy plants last year. I will have wanted it long enough to make it doubly valuable.

These Deliciouses have a certain dignity, too. I know I shouldn't personify plants, but I had to admire them when we got a nasty spell of cold weather in mid-June. They hibernated through the entire thing. For four days with highs in the 40's and lows in the 30's and almost two inches of rain, these plants went into a state of suspended animation. I swear that their blossoms didn't even move for the four days. They just remained in the same position and same stage they had been in when the system moved in. There was no new growth, just plants intently concentrating on survival. Seriously. They were like Grizzly bears, all systems shut down for hibernation and a minimum of expended energy.

So far, the argument is stacking up this way, based on our postings:

Pro-Heirloom: Taste, variety, challenge, thin skin, seed exchange

Pro-Hybrid: Disease resistance, temperature resistance, productivity

[TZ -OH6]

I can't say anything good about Delicious. It comes from Ponderosa, Crimson Cushion, Beefsteak (all the same thing) so its flavor is in the same catagory as the common red hybrids (average), which the original hybrid beefsteak (Big Boy) vastly improved upon. It doesn't live up to the size hype, and I had poor production the second time I grew it, when everything else around it was producing well. I wouldn't exactly call it an heirloom. I'm pretty sure it was it was developed by Burpee in the 1970s.


Yellow pear is a very old heirloom...one of the original tomato varieties in the US known from at least the mid 1800s. I think it is fun to eat even though the flavor is very mild. It is one of the few things around here tht gets killed off pretty easily by diseases, which is fine because once other varieties get rolling here I don't eat many cherries. I tend to put it in bad spots and forget about it so that may have something to do with it.

I had several heirloom varieties that were left standing after late blight killed off everything in this part of the country including the plants that were touching/surrounding them. I also had one or two varieties that were nearly killed by Septoria earlier in the summer when the rest were suffering moderate levels. The hybrids do not have resistance genes to the foliage diseases (septoria, early blight, bacterial speck etc). They may suffer less than some herilooms, but by no means all. The hybrid diseases (VFNT are either soil -root attacking diseases or insect carried viruses, so heat and humidity are not big factors for infection. Some popular varieties like Yellow pear and Green Zebra IMO are foliage disease prone, while many claim that potatoleaf varieties hold up better than regular leaf varieties.



https://www.garden.org/articles/articles.php?q=show&id=389

[soil]

I grow my own tomatoes from my own seed, they started out as hybrids and heirlooms. now they are neither. just a diversity of genetics with traits that I select for each year. and damn are they tasty, resistant, drought tolerant, and yield well too

[lj in ny]

I agree with a lot of the other posters about the poorly researched article. Green Zebra is OP not an heirloom (by the way)

As far as heirlooms only producing 2 fruits per plant...I've never had that experience even when I was starting out and didn't know the difference between hybrid and heirloom. I'm growing 2 Brandywines this year (known for being low producers) one plant has 14 tomatoes the other 11 (keep in mind it's late June and they won't really start producing until September)

Like many have stated- hybrids have a purpose and so do heirlooms. People grow one, the other or both for different and valid reasons. I prefer heirlooms because I like saving my own seed or trading seed from other tomato-files. Commercially grown seed often comes from 3rd world countries and is shipped across the globe. I'd rather get my seed from someone that grew it in their back yard- they probably didn't exploit any labor to harvest the seed, they are more likely to be concerned about what they are putting into the ground since they live there and aren't shipping the seed tens of thousands of miles to get to me. If I don't get seed in a trade I try to order from a company that has taken the safe seed pledge. Am I going to save the world? No, but I'd like to minimize my impact.

I only realized the difference between hybrid and heirloom a few years ago. Prior to that I grew both in my garden. I honestly never noticed a difference between productivity or disease resistance between the German Johnsons, Brandywines and Better Boys, Early Girls. I noticed a difference in taste and the thickness of the skins (disclaimer: I'm a foodie).

I'd suggest you try some different types of heirlooms- some that are betters suited to your climate. Check out the varieties that came out of Russia/Siberia. Keep an open mind. Decide what it is that you want out of your tomatoes; with all of the varieties out there (both hyb and heir) you should find sucess.

BTW- my tomatoes are going nuts this year. Thank You Cottonpicker Larry! I got a lot of seeds from you through an offer on another site. They are all doing great!

[applestar]

Commercially grown seed often comes from 3rd world countries and is shipped across the globe.

THAT'S an interesting point too. I've reached the conclusion that, as much as possible, I should purchase seeds and plants from nurseries close to my geological and climatic area, so that puts a whole another wrinkle to the idea.

[TZ -OH6]

Semantics. IMO the term heirloom is synonymous with OP when discussing tomatoes because there is almost no way for the average person to make a distinction when nearly all of the seed companies group them together. As far as a discussion of heirloom vs hybrid goes it doesn't matter. Old OP varieties have the same characteristics as new OP varieties. Green Zebra will qualify for heirloom status in 12 years by some people's definition (40 years). We may be able to call up this thread on this forum at that time.

[mansgirl]

I grew Brandywines last year, they produced wonderfully, and I keep finding little baby Brandywines peeking up this year even after the blight hit their parents last year. I was not overly wowed by their flavor, but then again, I'm not a big tomato enthusiast. I grow tomatoes strictly for making salsa. Whatever tomatoes I have extra I preserve so that I can make goulash and lasagna (etc.) in the winter.

I found that with the heirlooms all of the bumps and ridges made them too time consuming to peel. I guess if your going to go for the preservation method like I do, go for a hybrid. Once I add all of the other fun stuff to my salsa or goulash, I can't really tell a difference. Or, if you're going for that fresh BLT 'treat' grow an heirloom! : )

[applestar]

OT but do you do the boiling water dip to peel? If you dunk your tomatoes whole in boiling water for 30 seconds to a minute (turning with larger ones as necessary, and longer with the stem end down), the skin slips right off from a slit with a sharp knife. Same for peaches.

When processing tomatoes, I sometimes cut them in quarters and core them first, then strain after cooking to remove the skin and some of the seeds.

[lj in ny]

Also, there are plenty of smooth, round OP/Heirloom. Eva's Purple Ball and Super Sioux are 2 that come to mind off the top of my head. I blanch and peel tomatoes all summer long to make bruschetta and salsa with all sorts of sizes and shapes of tomatoes, it's not really an issue for me.

[TZ -OH6]

"I found that with the heirlooms all of the bumps and ridges"


This is a common stereotype, but it only applies to some of the beefsteak varieties, which just happen to be the most popular because of flavor. Last night I gathered some statistics from a Tomatoes Growers Supply catalog (2008?) (which I'll post later today). IIRC there were only three hybrids listed in the beefsteak section. Nearly all of the hybrids were in the red round section, and they were slightly less than half of the total. There were a few European hybrids in that had ridged shoulders (costoluto is the Italian term for it). The paste section had quite a few hybrids, about 1/3 of the offerings, and there were no oxheart hybrids. Round red, paste, and oxheart "heirlooms" almost never have nooks and crannies.

Another problem is with catfacing of the beefsteaks. After my first year processing some catfaced fruit when making sauce I decided that they were better culled from the plant while still green so that they wouldn't tick me off later in life.

[stella1751]

I can't say anything good about Delicious. It comes from Ponderosa, Crimson Cushion, Beefsteak (all the same thing) so its flavor is in the same catagory as the common red hybrids (average), which the original hybrid beefsteak (Big Boy) vastly improved upon. It doesn't live up to the size hype, and I had poor production the second time I grew it, when everything else around it was producing well. I wouldn't exactly call it an heirloom. I'm pretty sure it was it was developed by Burpee in the 1970s.

Well, that's disappointing to learn. I had decided I wanted to try a genuine heirloom, so I went to Totally Tomatoes for my seed, reasoning that a specialist would know its stuff. Truth be told, though, I had serious difficulties navigating its website; I wish they'd just put all heirlooms in one section instead of sorting tomatoes by size. You have to go to size first. I wanted large but not giant. Then you can navigate to heirlooms or hybrids. I went to large heirlooms, and there she was, the tomato of my nightmares (j/k), Delicious. 77 days. Perfect for Wyoming. Live and learn, right?

I've updated our pros list based upon recent postings and on something I remembered. Up here in Casper, if you grow heirlooms, you breathe rarified air. All, and I mean all, the serious gardeners grow heirlooms. The way they say it is, well, I don't mean to be harsh, snooty, like saying, "I matriculated at Harvard."

You ask them what kind, and almost everyone has at least one yellow pear and one brandywine. I've never heard of another variety being grown besides those two, but I don't belong to a garden club, either. These are just friends who also garden.

Anyway, following is the new list:

Pro-Heirloom: Taste, variety, challenge, thin skin, seed exchange, cachet

Pro-Hybrid: Disease resistance, temperature resistance, productivity, shape

Soil, I found your post interesting. Of all the tomatoes I've ever grown, the one I loved the most, all around (appearance, flavor, disease and temperature resistance, size), was something called a Husky. It was a hybrid, an indeterminate, but it was a dwarf, something I didn't notice until I got the plants home. Given the tiny size of my garden, I can't afford to give space to a dwarf. If I could get a Husky next year and save its seeds, I wonder whether the next generation might lose the dwarfism gene. That would be a plant to have, in my opinion.

[garden5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't mortgage lifter an heirloom noted for its exceptional yield?

I'm going OP all the way this year and must say that I'm getting quite a fruit-set so far.

[TZ -OH6]

This is a very interesting thread and had me looking for a way to best understand the topic at hand, so in order to find out what the hybrid’s place is in relation to tomatoes in general (for home gardeners) I went to my saved list of offerings from Tomato Growers Supply
(2007), which offers seeds in small enough packages for the home gardener, but also larger quantities for market gardeners, has a large listing of hybrids, and a decent listing of OP varieties. There are a handful of good hybrids not on this list, there are also many good heirlooms also not on the list, but I think this is probably a good representative sample to show the situation.


Hybrid Varieties
85 Red (3 beefsteak)
3 Pink, (0=beefsteak, vs. 39 pink OP beefsteaks (Brandywine et al.))
3 Yellow Orange
2 Pink cherry
3 Yellow cherry

As you can see, most hybrids fall into the category of round red. Why? Red fruit is desirable because the skin is more elastic, and generally thicker so red fruits tend to resist cracking and ship better. Round fruits are important for consumer satisfaction, and efficient packing for shipping. Consumers also prefer red fruits over other colors. Red fruit color is caused by the presence of the yellow epidermis gene allele, which is a regulatory gene that affects several things including some flavor components, so a red tomato is more likely to have a certain type of flavor consumers are used to.

Pink tomatoes (lacking the yellow epidermis allele), on the other hand, and especially pink beefsteaks, tend to be more famous for their flavor.



Common/Popular
These are the hybrids from the TGS list I have seen for sale as seed or seedlings around town. These range from average to very very good, but only a couple might consistently make the top ten in tomato tasting contests.

Red
Beefmaster VFN Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
Big Beef VFFNTA Hybrid
Big Boy Hybrid
Bush Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Bush Early Girl VFFNT Hybrid
Early Girl VFF Hybrid
Goliath VFFNT Hybrid
Jet Star VF Hybrid

Pink
Momotaro Hybrid pink from Japan

Yellow
Lemon Boy VFN Hybrid

Cherry
Sweet 100 Hybrid-red
Sweet Million FNT Hybrid-red
Sun Gold Hybrid cherry from Japan

Note how few popular hybrids there are. I have a feeling that the heirloom vs. hybrid debate is more or less an argument for or against about a dozen very similar tomatoes. I might not be far off saying it is often an argument comparing about a dozen round red tomatoes to pink beefsteaks (with the unusually temperamental Brandywine as their poster child).

From the data I would conclude that if you want a good to great tasting round red tomato and need reliable strong production year to year, a hybrid is a safe bet/sure thing. If you are plagued by one or more of the following diseases, V1,V2,F1,F2,F3,N,T,A and/or high temperatures you may be restricted to a subset of the hybrids,.... good luck with the flavor.




Data (hybrids/total offered)

Note that nearly all American hybrids on the list have been bred for disease resistance, which is difficult to do and retain flavor at the same time. The diseases are very specific, and even the resistances to Fusarium and Verticillium are dependent on the race occurring in your part of the country. Compare the resistances of the three following hybrids.

Big Boy Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
Big Beef VFFNTA Hybrid

Disease resistance genes: Verticillium wilt race I, Fusarium wilt race I, Fusarium wilt race II, root knot Nematodes, Tobacco mosaic virus, Anthracnose.

Big Boy has no specific disease resistances, Better Boy will get wiped out in a part of the country having Fusarium race II instead of or in addition to Fusarium race I. Big Beef is good to go almost anywhere except regions suffering from Fusarium race III. So it is important to know exactly which diseases (if any) are problematic in your region. These diseases usually take a few seasons to build up in your garden. It is rare to have them present when you first start, and crop rotation helps to keep levels low.


Big Boy was the first hybrid put on the market back in 1949 it was bred for flavor, looks, and reliable production. It is still one of the top tasting hybrids, which shows how little emphasis hybridizers have placed on that quality in the past 60 years. Sun Gold hybrid (Japanese), which has no disease resistance genes bred into it, tends to crack, and is not red, but is often at the #1 spot on tomato tasting contests.



TGS categories (hybrids vs. total varieties offered)

Oxhearts (0/9)

Black (0/17)

Bicolor (0/19)

Green (0/9)

White (0/9)

Yellow and Orange (6/53)
Lemon Boy VFN Hybrid
Sweet Gold FT Hybrid
**Golden Gem Hybrid cherry from China
Golden Girl VFNTA Hybrid
**Sun Gold Hybrid cherry from Japan
SunSugar FT Hybrid

Paste (7/27)
Classica VFFNA Hybrid
Halley 3155 VFF Hybrid
LaRoma II VFFNA Hybrid
Margherita VF Hybrid
Super Marzano VFNT Hybrid
Victoria Supreme VFFNA Hybrid
Viva Italia VFFNA

Small Fruited (14/37)
Cherry Grande VF Hybrid
**Jolly Hybrid pink
Juliet Hybrid
Mountain Belle VF Hybrid
Patio F Hybrid
Small Fry VFN Hybrid
Sugar Snack NT Hybrid
Sun Cherry FT Hybrid
Sweet 100 Hybrid
Sweet Baby Girl Hybrid
Sweet Chelsea VFNT Hybrid
Sweet Million FNT Hybrid
**Sweet Quartz VFNT Hybrid pink
Window Box Roma VFN Hybrid

Beefsteak (3/66)
Beefmaster VFN Hybrid
Big Bite VFFNT Hybrid
Burpee's Supersteak VFN Hybrid


Early Season (6/31)
Applause VFFA Hybrid
Bush Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Bush Early Girl VFFNT Hybrid
Early Girl VFF Hybrid
Jetsetter VFFNTA Hybrid
Pilgrim VFFA Hybrid

Late Season (0/20)

Mid Season (55/94)
Ace-High Improved VFFNA Hybrid
Ball's Beefsteak VFFT Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
BHN 444 VFF Hybrid
BHN 589 VFFT Hybrid
BHN 640 VFFF Hybrid
Big Beef VFFNTA Hybrid
Big Boy Hybrid
Big Pick VFNT Hybrid
Bush Champion VFFA Hybrid
Cabernet VFFNTA Hybrid
Cavalier VFNTA Hybrid
Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Champion II VFNT Hybrid
Cluster Grande FFA
Cobra VFT Hybrid
Crimson Fancy VFFA Hybrid
Duke VFA Hybrid
Fantastic Hybrid
First Prize VFFNT Hybrid
Floralina VFFFA Hybrid
Florida 91 VFF Hybrid
Giant Valentine VFA Hybrid
Goliath VFFNT Hybrid
Health Kick VFFA Hybrid
Heartland VFN Hybrid
**Honey Hybrid pink
Husky Red VF Hybrid
Jet Star VF Hybrid
Keepsake VFFNTA Hybrid
**Momotaro pink from Japan
Monte Carlo VFN
Mountain Spring VFF Hybrid
Pik-Red VF Hybrid
**Pink Girl VFT Hybrid pink
Royesta FFNT Hybrid
Salsa VFT Hybrid
Sausalito VFFA Hybrid
Shady Lady VFTA Hybrid
Solar Fire VFFF Heat-tolerant
Solar Set VFF Hybrid Heat-tolerant
Spitfire VFFA Hybrid crimson gene
Sun King VFTA Hybrid
Sun Leaper VFF Hybrid Heat-tolerant
Sunbeam VFFA Hybrid
Sunmaster VFFA Hybrid Heat-tolerant
Sunny VFA Hybrid
Super Fantastic VF Hybrid
Supersonic VF Hybrid
Sweet Cluster VFNT Hybrid
Terrific VFN Hybrid
Tiffany VFNT Hybrid
Tomande VFFNT Hybrid
Ultra Boy VFN Hybrid

[gixxerific]

This is a great thread Stella as usual.

TZ brings up my point stated earlier.

As you can see, most hybrids fall into the category of round red. Why? Red fruit is desirable because the skin is more elastic, and generally thicker so red fruits tend to resist cracking and ship better. Round fruits are important for consumer satisfaction, and efficient packing for shipping.

Who not in the know wants a black, white, yellow tomato. That is the devil's fruit. They are supposed to be red and perfect. "How much extra for real flavor" you have to ask.

Step out of the box as Taco Bell might say (Gix.... hiding from impending lawsuits). Try something new if that doesn't work try another variety there are literally thousands to choose from.

My 2 cents.

[TZ -OH6]

I have a hard time giving away anything that is not round red and 6-12 oz, (or cherries) to the neighbors. Funny colors are not appreciated, nor are 1.5 lb nobby pink things...too much to eat at one sitting.

Barring another Late blight disaster I'm going to put a table in the drive way this year with a sign for free tomatoes and see how many people take green when ripe, red and yellow bicolors, or long pointy paste tomatoes.

[stella1751]

TZ -OH6, your post brought home a powerful point to me; I'm not certain whether that was your intention or not. When I read through the list of hybrids offered, I recognized many, many a name from my own past gardens. Of the hybrids listed, I have tried the following in the last 20 years:

Lemon Boy VFN Hybrid
Patio F Hybrid
Sweet 100 Hybrid
Beefmaster VFN Hybrid
Bush Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Early Girl VFF Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
Bush Champion VFFA Hybrid (Better Bush?)
Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Husky Red VF Hybrid
Jet Star VF Hybrid

Four others I remember trying but didn't see on your list:

Heatwave
Fourth of July
Black Prince
Rutgers

In the past 20 years I have tried the following heirlooms:

Golden Queen
Yellow Pear (grown many, many years without realizing it was a hybrid)
Delicious

So I have tried 15 hybrids and 3 heirlooms. (There might be more hybrids; I get all the "Boys" mixed up, and I suspect I'm forgetting a cherry or two.) I clearly haven't given heirlooms the chance I have given hybrids.

Of the 3 heirlooms, the Golden Queen had no trouble with blossom set, but the fruit was ugly (sorry). The Yellow Pears never developed a disease or refused to set fruit. In fact, I quit growing them because they were too prolific. I could pick four plants for an hour every three or four days, filling a five gallon pail each time, and still have fruit dropping to the ground. The Delicious is the only one refusing to set blossoms, but it is quite healthy. Ergo, 100% of heirlooms were disease free, 66% set fruit. Yes, it's an insufficient sampling for a conclusive study, but I think it screams I need to try other heirloom varieties.

Of the 15 hybrids, my best growing experiences were with the Early Girls, the Husky Red, and the Black Prince. I can remember, looking back through the haze of time, that I was dissatisfied with the Jet Star, the Bush Celebrity, and the Heatwaves. I can't remember why, but I think disease was the problem, one of the leaf diseases that works it way from bottom up, like septoria leaf spot. Either that or cracking. (My fault, not theirs)

At any rate, what matters is that I have been judging heirlooms by this Delicious, worrying, based largely upon the pejorative language used in that article, that I had committed myself to something weak and feeble.

Here's another thought: Why do I try hybrids before I try heirlooms? I try hybrids first because I rarely start my own tomato seeds. It's easier to run to Home Depot and Wal-Mart in the spring and pick up what they have to offer, especially given the diminutive size of my garden. With the exception of Yellow Pears, my local nurseries offer hybrids only.

Because I was determined to try heirlooms this year, I had to start my own seeds. It's not a hardship, but you can sure wind up with too many plants going that route. I have twelve non-producers in my back yard right now

Interesting story: Yesterday, a woman who lives a few blocks down stopped by to see what I was growing out front this year. She's what we call a Snow Bird, wintering down south and summering up here. She told me she had bought a Big Boy, but she was disappointed: It was dropping its blossoms after two days.

Man, I don't think we've been any hotter than usual this summer, but I suppose I could be wrong.

[gixxerific]

There is another thing to look at Stella, the heat. I'm not sure what the temp is around you but it has been hot as hell around here and that is hurting the tom's. Just this Mon it came back to normal and I saw the first tomato flower I have seen in several weeks.

Another thing I have noticed is at least a couple of the better nursery's around are now carrying heirlooms. So you may be able to find them without starting the seed yourself, but hey, that is half the fun to me.

[TZ -OH6]

Garden 5,

Mortgage Lifter (Radiator Charlies) might be a heavy produceer in some places, I don't know. I have grown it twice from different sources. It acted just like all of the other pink beefsteaks until the second half of the season and then it just petered out. Any fruits growing/picked during the last month were very small. Possibly it needs a warmer climate. I won't be growing it again or recommending it.


Stella, Rutgers and Black Prince are Heirlooms/OP. Rutgers (introduced in 1934) is an example of a very very successful commercial variety that ran its course because farmers needed VFN resistance or a 5% greater yield.

"Not only did this provide a top performing tomato for New Jersey’s canning industries Campbell’s, Heinz and Ritter, but continued to be the preferred choice of 75 percent of commercial growers for the remainder of the twentieth century"

https://njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/WhatabouttheRutgersTomato.htm

https://njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/documents/Rutgerstomatorelease.pdf


Black Prince is also an OP/heirloom commercial variety. The Soviet Union did not allow private gardens for the most part, and did not develop/distribute hybrid seeds for the most part, so it is a safe bet that anything coming out of eastern Europe was originally a CV. I give Black Prince a C+, B- for flavor. It is pretty good until you compare it to one of the better blacks.

A big problem with heirlooms is you either don't find enough (local seeds and plants) or you find too many (online seed sources), so it is pretty easy to get duds from the lucky of the draw. A few years ago you could look at a favorites thread on the heavy tomato forums and get a good solid list of standards (Brandywine, Cherokee Purple, Anna Russian, Aunt Gerties Gold, Evergreen, etc) But today so many people have tried so many, including a big influx of Eastern European varieties that a favorites thread is filled with flavor's of the month and not much better than looking at a huge seed venders' listing.

[stella1751]

The Black Prince was an heirloom? That was one of the first tomatoes I ever grew. I liked it so much I tried to find it again and have looked for it since, but I have never seen it. It was a small tomato. I don't remember it being a cherry, but it was small. The big thing about it was that it was virtually unstoppable, with more fruit than foliage.

The Rutgers was crammed in next to an inordinately prolific Early Girl. It produced, but its position was in the shade for much of the day once the Early Girl began producing.

Thinking ahead: Heirloom producers, what are your five favorite varieties, listed in order of preference. What do you like best about each one?

[lj in ny]

My top 5 are listed but I can't say which one is my favorite since they are all so different (Black Krim is REALLY good though!)
Green Zebra- I've grown it for several years, it's the only GWR I've grown (I'm growing a bunch this year to compare)
Dr Wyche's Yellow-Big Yummy Beefsteak
Black Cherry-best cherry tomato I've every had
Black Krim -great smokey flavor
Stupice- nice round red, heavy producer.

Last year was the first year I grew all heirlooms. I got wiped out by late blight before I got a good taste of all 24 that I grew. Everybody got wiped out by late blight in my area (hybrids and heirlooms) so don't see that as a failing of the heirloom. I'm growing 39 varieties this year so I suspect my list will change before the end of the season.

[gixxerific]

Black Cherry-best cherry tomato I've every had

I agree, sorry a bit off topic here but I must put in my 2 cents. I am growing several Black Cherry myself this year. As I said I agree this is the best cherry ever in my book. Everyone I have seen on the net say's it is the best out there with some saying best tomato ever in there garden. My wife, kids, friends can't get enough, nor can I.

Back to where we were.

[TZ -OH6]

I pulled up and retitled the favorites thread I posted in the spring.



Stella, I'm sure you can get free seeds for Black Prince someplace

Nyagous looks and tastes identical, is a bit more productive (both put on loads of fruit though) and doesn't have the shoulder cracking.

[garden5]

TZ, what does "CS" mean? "Cultivated variety"?

I'm glad to hear black krim tastes so good as I'm growing it this year. Is black cherry different from chocolate cherry?

[TZ -OH6]

CV = Commercial Variety


Something that was bred for farmers for market purposes as opposed to something that originated in Granny's garden.

[Urban_Garden]

Last year I grew two types of hybrid and got only a handful of tomatoes ( a dozen or so maybe?)
Now, I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but on my heirloom (German and Yellow Pear), I have over 60 blooms in just my tiny kitchen garden and roughly 20 green tomatoes so far, with dozens of green blossoms getting ready to explode into that yellow awesomeness. Roughly %80 of my garden is OP and heirloom, the rest are hybrids, I'm not a purist.

[stella1751]

My Deliciouses, now 2' to 3' tall, healthy, vigorous, and covered with blossoms, have yet to set one tomato. Last night, we again tied a record low of 39 degrees. I picked a bad summer to attempt a diva. From extreme cold to extreme heat and back to extreme cold, it's been an odd summer up here.

The ten-day forecast predicts normal Casper temps: highs in the 80's, lows around 50. Maybe that will turn the tide in my favor.

Next summer, based upon what other members have written, I think I will try Black Krim or that Eva one Larry mentioned.