An Argument against Heirlooms

[stella1751]

While trying to determine why my heirloom Deliciouses are not producing like past hybrids have despite my low nightly temps and high daily temps, I came across the following article.

[url]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=case-against-heirloom-tomatoes[/url]

I'd appreciate hearing comments about this article from both sides: heirloom and hybrid afficionados. This is the first time in over a decade that I've tried heirlooms. The last time, in Cheyenne, I got fruit, but I didn't especially like its appearance. This time I tried a stunningly attractive variety, but I'm not getting fruit set. Yeah, I know about the temps, the nitrogen, the water. However, I've never seen this happen before, not with my hybrids or with the first heirlooms I tried, and this article seriously opened my eyes.

Eventually, I WILL get fruit. When that happens, look out. I will then begin a "The Race Is on for the First October Tomato" thread

[garden5]

Well, here's the thing, hybrids have good yield, disease resistance, and vigor, but usually the last thing they are bred for is taste.

Heirlooms, on the other hand, may yield less, but there's often a wider spectrum of flavors to be had.

However, if an heirloom is grown year after year in the same area, it can adapt to that particular "microclimate". Also, you can't save seeds from hybrids .

[gixxerific]

I must say that all of the OP I have grown and tasted are way better than any hybrid I have grown. Sure they MAY not do as well in production or disease resistance. But the flavor is what we are after. And maybe a little of history as well. I will stay with heirlooms form here on out.

OH have you seen D_V's post on the different variety's he has. Doesn't look to me that there is any lacking of quality there.

I'd rather have 5 great tomatoes than 25 so-so tomatoes.

[petalfuzz]

I think hybrids can have their place, but I feel it is a myth that hybrids produce better and have more disease resistance than their heirloom brothers. If one variety of heirloom doesn't do it for you, try another. There are more than 6,000 kinds out there. I suggest planting more than a few for testing purposes. Then you will be likely to find one that measures up to your personal tastes and requirements.

Monsanto is not in the business of making a better tomato plant. They are in the business of making money! Hybrids make lots of money because you can't save seed, but instead must return to the company and pay up. It is in their best interest to bad-mouth and talk-down the value of heirloom tomatoes (or any open-pollinated crop) so that eventually every backyard gardener thinks hybrids produce better, etc.

[stella1751]

Thanks, Garden 5 and Gix; that's the kind of rational defense I had hoped to see! I hope more make their responses to this article known.

[kimbledawn]

I was staying away from posting just because Monsanto was mentioned in the article. I agree with petalfuzz but what I also think is that we need to get a healthy dose of respect for the diversity in nature and not continue to think that changing things make them better.

If you don't like tomatoes that are prone to cracking, or those that don't produce tons then pick another....that's the beauty in diversity. Pick one that is native to your area and produces tons of wonderful tasting tomatoes.

I have one type of hybrid growing in my garden this year(3 early girl plants) and since March 30 they are the least productive tomato plants that I have. I have also had at least ten ripe tomatoes from some of my other plants before I had one ripe early girl. All grown the same way with the same soil and conditions.

[LindsayArthurRTR]

I too got heirlooms in before early girls! I actually didnt get any viable early girls...BER.

I DO love the flavors I'm getting from the heirlooms vs what I got from hybrids in previous years

[Cirtes]

I don't discriminate. If I find a hybrid that meets my taste criteria it's yet another tomato that is welcome in my garden. brandy boy, lemon boy, golden jubilee and others come to mind.

There are several hybrids out there that do not sacrifice taste and IMO should have their spot under the sun.

[Ozark Lady]

I have a bit of a different take on this.

Last year, I didn't start my own plants.
I purchased plants. And the hybrids made the heirlooms look sick.

Hey the heirlooms were sick, I paid extra for them, and got notta for my effort. In this case, yes the hybrids did it. But, I just didn't like the taste.

Normally, I start heirlooms from seeds, and I don't have disease issues, I don't have growth issues, they do as good as the purchased hybrid seedlings.

I think it is how they are started and raised that makes all the difference in the world.

If you are not going to start your own plants... go with hybrids.
But, if you want taste, vigor, and production: start your own plants!

[TZ -OH6]

I think it is a very poorly written article using the sensationalism of slamming heirlooms when it could just as easily be slamming all modern tomatoes, heirloom or hybrid, because they share the same limited gene pool.

That article is promoting research on interspecific hybrids (domesticated tomatoes x wild inedible tomato species). The research is a sister to GMO research in that it is going outside of the historical horticultural gene pool to find resistance genes.


The article also uses the example of one strange "heirloom"

"The original plant, Heath explains, had defective flowers, which is one reason why it set only two fruits compared with the 30 he gets from his new variety"

and then goes on to group all heirlooms as only being capable of setting a handfull of fruit. That couldn't be further from the truth since most heirlooms were at one point commercial varieties that didn't get released to the public unless they were heavy producers. Seed companies couldn't sell them if they were duds.

Most of the Hybrid-Heirloom debate is misunderstod and fueled by sales hype for hybrids. Some regions of the country have one or a few very serious diseases that make growing tomatoes difficult, but the hybrid sellers make everybody think that it is impossible to grow normal tomatoes everywhere. As for production, modern hybrids like Better Boy, Early Girl etc. produce consistently under a wide range of conditions. A given heirloom variety can out produce them or under produce them in any one year. It is true that heirlooms may not produce well outside of their "home range", but with over a hundred times more heirlooms to choose from than hybrids it is easy to find many that do well in your area. Most of this arguement is aimed at tomato farmers who need consistent production year to year to cover costs and make a profit. It may also be of concern to gardeners who are space limited and put up tomatoes by canning. Most grdeners are growing for fresh eating and often end up giving a lot away so if their production varies by 20% year to year it isn't noticed.

Sure, you can stick most hybrids into poor soil and get better production than with most heirlooms, but IMO that is the grower's fault, not the plant's.


I do feel sorry for the people who have to grow the disease resistant hybrids because of disease ridden soil. They are missing out on so much diversity. The good tasting hybrids are really good, but they don't cover the range of flavors found in heirlooms. I'm all for the recent breeding programs to produce more good tasting disease resistant hybrids, but I'll switch over to container growing if it means growing Early Girl instead of Black Krim because Ohio dirt is suddenly overrun with root knot nematodes.


It might be important to some people to know that the seed for some of the popular hybrids are owned by Monsanto subsidiary seed companies, and most others are owned by "Big Ag." Buy more stock or boycott, your choice.

[stella1751]

You made a good, solid, reasonable argument, TZ -OH6. However, my problem isn't disease; it's blossom set. Even though I know, rationally, that these plants will eventually produce, I am sadly remembering past years and hybrid plants covered with green tomatoes by this time.

I'm most concerned by the statement that "diversity of heirlooms can be accounted for by a handful of genes. There's probably no more than 10 mutant genes that create the diversity of heirlooms you see." I remember, from way back when I was breeding horses, that narrowing the gene pool can have some seriously adverse consequences. People talk line-breeding and inbreeding, pleased about their ability to set certain traits, but occasionally they turn a blind eye to the linking of recessive genes, recessive genes frequently proving lethal.

If you don't outcross, you lose that hybrid vigor responsible for the survival of the species. Right now, I'm looking at some drop-dead gorgeous heirloom tomato plants. I swear to you, these plants are over two feet tall, a rich green interspersed with dozens of blossoms. They are beautiful, and I take great delight in just looking at them. For me, that is much of what gardening is about: taking a teeny-tiny seed and helping it achieve its formal cause, its telos.

If, however, the plant is adversely affected by temperatures, as appears to be the case with these beautiful Deliciouses, refusing to set fruit when nightly temperatures drop to 48 and daily temperatures rise to 92, well, the plant has no telos to achieve. It's a lily of the valley, I guess, quite attractive but failing in its formal cause.

Naturally, the hybrids are no better, not with their inability to reproduce predictably. However, and here's a thought: Won't their offspring still possess hybrid vigor? Even if you can't predict what the hybrid will produce, that offspring should still be able to withstand disease and extreme temperatures, right?

Yes, the seed companies make big bucks from us non-hybrid producers. Nevertheless, they do procreate, which, thus far, the heirloom has not. The choice for me at this time appears to be this: Grow something fine and gorgeous and legendary, or grow tomatoes.

What will happen, just throwing this out there, if the heirlooms do indeed become too feeble because of the lack of genetic diversity to reproduce in any climate? Does anyone know of an heirloom that has declined, perhaps becoming extinct in recent years?

[gixxerific]

I agree TZ on the poorly written article. I was upset at the end of the first paragraph. Where this was stated: "those run-of-the-mill hybrid varieties such as beefsteak, cherry and plum." First off those are types not variety's am I right.

Stella I wouldn't worry about the heirlooms becoming extinct. Maybe a few will drop off here and there. But there are thousands of variety's all over. Seed Savers Exchange is one of the biggest advocates on, well, seed saving. There are ton's of people around the world that are dedicated to preserving the old time and new time seeds. There will not be a problem there.

[TZ -OH6]

Stella,

What you are talking about is inbreeding depression, which is a population phenomenon that occurs in a small population in the absense of selective pressure. Inbreeding increasing the frequency of deleterious recessive alleles finding each other in the population.

Heirlooms, or more precisely, open pollinated tomato varieties, are each a homozygous clone of the parent plant. Every gene is either homozygous dominant or homozygous recessive for the whole genome. Any deleterious alleles were literally weeded out during the stabilization process. Unlike with animals where you have to have two separate individuals to produce offspring. The tomato is breeding with itself so there is no repeated input of bad genes (only selection against bad alleles). Generally, stabiliation from a new cross takes about seven generations to make sure all of the heterozous genes are gone.

If you grow seeds saved from a hybrid tomato you will get a range of charcteristices in the next generation (good to terrible plants). If you let that population randomly interbreed with each other for the next several generations you will have a mess of an inferior tomato patch. If you sellect out the best plants from each generation, grow out many of their seeds (from self fertilization) and pick the best from each generation. Repeat this for six or seven genrations you will have strong pure breeding lines.


I know of a semi commercial heirloom grower in Wyoming that deals with your problems. I will PM you with the information.

[stella1751]

TZ -OH6, your explanation of tomato genetics is fascinating. Thank you! That clarifies many things for me.

I'm not giving up on my Deliciouses. Such gorgeous plants deserve an opportunity to achieve their telos. They will produce. As suggested, I will save seeds from the biggest and the best, something I will need to learn to do

I will continue to scrutinize them daily. I KNOW it will happen, and truth be told, I enjoy the challenge. Because I'm not relying on a bumper crop, one or two per plant will satisfy me.

I'm not going back to hybrids, not just yet. I'd still like to learn more about why heirloom growers are bullish on their tomatoes, but I can research that online. Besides, at this time of the year, I'm pretty much committed to these beauties.

They will be beautiful, too.

[TZ -OH6]

I think heirloom growers are either looking for the best flavor possible, or caught up in trying new flavors. More often than not you will find that serious heirloom growers grow Sungold every year.... a hybrid.....because it is unique and delicious.

SunGold is a Japanese variety, as is another very good hybrid, Momotaro. The Japanese breed fruity sweet hybrids that American "Big Ag." breeders wouldn't think the American public would buy in high numbers.

[cottonpicker]

I grow for flavor...period... and, the ONLY hybrids I now grow are Sungold (every year since about 1989) and Super Fantastic. Better Boy also gave good tasting fruits in the past; however, MOST other hybrids were too thick-skinned or simply flavorless in my opinion. Granted, hybrids are "sometimes" more productive than heirlooms, but heirlooms are also MORE LIKELY to give a superior tasting fruit in my opinion. They are sometimes ugly by comparison, but I challenge anyone to grow a hybrid that is any "prettier" than Eva Purple Ball. She's perfect .... and, tastes great! I continue to grow mostly heirlooms but am not adverse to also having Sungold & a few other hybrids too! Why not have the best of BOTH worlds?
LarryD

[TZ -OH6]

Hi Larry, I either missed your other posts or didn't realize it was you. Good to see you over here.

[gixxerific]

Another reason I'm a Heirloom guy now is I'm thoroughly played out on the normal fare of hybrids. Growing the same kinds year after year gets old.

There is so many different looking, tasting tomatoes out there. I gotta have some change.

[stella1751]

Another reason I'm a Heirloom guy now is I'm thoroughly played out on the normal fare of hybrids. Growing the same kinds year after year gets old.

There is so many different looking, tasting tomatoes out there. I gotta have some change.

This pretty much explains why I'm growing these, Gix. I want to try something different. I'm glad I did; this is a wonderful learning experience. Once I've tasted it, maybe I will never grow a hybrid again. I just want the opportunity to taste it.

I see Tedlin started a thread titled "Anticipation," and I think of that word every time I go outside to check these Deliciouses. His thread, of course, had to do with eating the tomato, but I think of the word in terms of production. One day, there will be a fruit. One day. And it will be a good one. And I'm NOT giving it to anyone. I am going to take that puppy into the house, and I'm going to eat it. I won't even give the dogs the ends, like I usually do. They can grow their own.

Along those lines, here's a question regarding my blossoms' failure to set. I have been watching one blossom in particular for about a week now. The stigma (the center green protrusion) is clearly alive and engorged, like it has been pollinated. The petals and, I think, anthers are brown shards clinging to the base of the blossom, which is not shrinking or otherwise dying. Each day, that stigma seems to get a little bigger, a little longer. It's like it's making a tomato, but can't get the job done. Or is this the way heirlooms make fruit: slowly?

I think there are huge differences between the two types of tomatoes, and I wonder whether some of those differences lie in the way they create that tomato. My hybrids got the job done overnight; my heirloom has been working on this one potential tomato for at least a week.

[gixxerific]

Go out there and give them a shake every now and than. What has the weather been like there. Probably not as hot as here but that will hurt all tomato production.

Be patient, if you can, look at me telling you to be patient. I'm the most impatient person on the planet.

All the tomatoes I have had so far have been simply amazing. I'm a black tomato fan for life they have such different flavor characteristics.

Good luck Stella it will all be good.

By the way any tomato you grow be it hybrid or OP will be better than those grocery store wanna be's. Those are usually grown to look good never mind the taste. A lot of the times the are picked green than gassed to further the ripening. SO they can be nice and perfect and red at the store. I saw a video of apple production once they went through like 15 processes to make them more appealing, this was after being picked. But you have to figure no one is going to buy a cracked up irregular fruit from the store so they have to make them "LOOK" good.

[TZ -OH6]

A bad flower will drop off at the absiscion zone in a couple of days. A pollinated one will wither the petals, but if the pollination is only partially effective due to hot weather etc the development can stall while a hormone war goes on inside the flower. I've also had pea-sized fruit sit around for weeks until the older tomatoes on the truss ripended. Then they started to grow. Its true that the hybrids are generally going to be better about fruit set, but that is more a fact that they would not have been released to the public by the breeder if they were not superior in some basic traits, not from the fact that they are hybrids. Old commercial OP varieties such as Rutgers, Super Souix etc. are going to be more reliable about setting fruit than Brandywine. There is also the question of flower morphology. A beefseak flower may not set fruit as easily as a round standard fruit.


Some OP varieties are more finicky than others under certain conditions. The trick is to grow several different varieties so that the ones that are behaving themselves draw your attention away from the problem children.

[cottonpicker]

GOOD balanced thread!!!

Nice, rational discussion!!!

LarryD

[applestar]

This year, I'm growing mostly Heirlooms, a few OP's, and no hybrids. With a few exceptions, they are all setting fruit now. One has answered my efforts by ripening in time for the June Tomato Race . With tomatoes planted in gardens on all three sides of the house, walking the garden is particularly fun right now -- the little green fruits are growing in all different shapes, sizes, and cluster counts. Some tomatoes are even streaked. Later on, I know I'll be enjoying the different colors -- red, pink, orange, cream, yellow, "purple", "black" and striped!

Of course you can do this by growing hybrid tomatoes too. But once you start growing them from seed, saving the seeds from favored tomatoes, whether for flavor, color, earliness, size, or ability to resist or overcome diseases that others have succumbed to, so you can enjoy them again from year to year seems like a logical next step. The fun, too, is in sharing the seeds.

[stella1751]

Okay, then. There definitely is a hormone war going in inside that one blossom I described. It's not dying like the others, not withering and then dropping "off at the absiscion zone in a couple of days." It's been thinking tomato for a week, still is, in fact.

I'll lose it today, I suppose. The highs for today and tomorrow will be mid-90's. There's the problem: The temperatures. If the forecast is for 80's, we drop below 50 at night. If the nightly temperatures are a tomato-pleasing 55, we rise above 90 during the day.

Nevertheless, I do have hope now, TZ -OH6. Thanks!

Gix, I shake those cages whenever I walk past them. I read the following study about greenhouse pollination while trying to figure these Deliciouses out. It cited facts regarding artificial means of encouraging pollination. Vibration appears to be the best bet. Even though we generally have at least 10 MPH breezes each day, I figured it wouldn't hurt to try.

[url]https://www.beeculture.com/content/pollination_handbook/tomato.html[/url]

Interestingly, one researcher was quoted saying that "probably because of the peculiar structure of the flower and the absence of nectar," honey bees don't pollinate tomatoes as frequently as do bumble bees. I'd have bumble bees if my blasted bulldog mix didn't kill each one that strays onto our property.

LarryD, the first thing I did after reading your first post was to google-image the Eva Purple Ball. You are right: She's gorgeous! When I bought these seeds, I had narrowed my choice down to three of the loveliest: Thessalaniki (sp), Mortgage Lifter, and Delicious. I chose Delicious because of its relatively short growing season.

I think I do need to consider the seed-savers exchange, saving seeds from a Delicious (if I get one) and trading them in on something different for next year. I will have make certain the recipient knows there is no warranty on this product

[Alan in Vermont]

Monsanto is not in the business of making a better tomato plant. They are in the business of making money!
The first thing a gardener should grow is a brain

It sure is a good thing Monsanto exists, if not some of you people would be hard pressed for something to inject into a thread. I didn't see anything in the thread title or first post that made any mention of Monsanto or ant of the other evil companies who do things to make money.

Give it a rest already!

[cottonpicker]

Stella1751........

IF you wish to try EPB next year, give me a holler. I've got a few extra (Commercial source) seeds. Will gladly share....

LarryD

[applestar]

Monsanto was mentioned in the linked article as researching GM tomatoes combining traits from heirloom and hybrid varieties.

[petalfuzz]

Stella, I still think you should try more than one variety. If you don't know where to start, try Amy Goldman's "The Heirloom Tomato." She doesn't recommend the Delicious variety except for competitive growing. Also plants do seem to take their sweet time making fruit. Once you start to see the flowers turn into tiny fruit, it'll still be about 6 weeks till you get a ripe one.

I have a very small garden and grew 2 types my first year (not heirlooms); then 8 types my 2nd year (all open-pollinated, not all heirlooms); and 7 types this year. From year 2 to year 3, only 2 kinds made my "cut" and are being grown again. Of course, I had a late start and my plants are still only inches tall, so I've got even more of a wait than you.

[rainbowgardener]

I grow only hybrid tomatoes... I have a city lot, mostly shaded with one 4x8' bed in which I can grow tomatoes. No more than 5 plants, 3 varieties this year. I also grow in the Ohio River Valley with high temps and extremely high humidity, lots of summer rain. Great conditions for fungal diseases. So my tomatoes HAVE to be reliable strong producers with good disease resistance. If I sacrifice top flavor to get that reliable strong producer, so be it. My tomatoes are still way better than grocery store ones.

The fact that there are umpteen thousand different heirloom varieties doesn't help me out any. I don't have room to experiment with a lot of varieties to figure out which ones work best for me.

That said this will be my last year for growing Early Girl, which wasn't any earlier than the Ultimate Opener and only beat Big Beef by a few days. The EG was quite disappointing in flavor. But the other two are excellent. There are plenty of good hybrids with good flavor, whether or not they would win contests.

Everyone has to do what works for them!

[stella1751]

I had a thought. I've grown yellow pears successfully, time and again. My ex-neighbor was crazy for them, so I always bought a plant or two. They are huge producers up here. They're a heirloom, aren't they?

Right now, without having tasted the fruit from these Deliciouses, I'm a hybrid fan simply because they can overcome our temperature extremes. I am confident I will receive tons of tomatoes from each plant. I'm a heirloom fan because they pose an interesting challenge. One tomato from my Delicious will mean more to me than the 70 or 80 I got from each of my Lemon Boy plants last year. I will have wanted it long enough to make it doubly valuable.

These Deliciouses have a certain dignity, too. I know I shouldn't personify plants, but I had to admire them when we got a nasty spell of cold weather in mid-June. They hibernated through the entire thing. For four days with highs in the 40's and lows in the 30's and almost two inches of rain, these plants went into a state of suspended animation. I swear that their blossoms didn't even move for the four days. They just remained in the same position and same stage they had been in when the system moved in. There was no new growth, just plants intently concentrating on survival. Seriously. They were like Grizzly bears, all systems shut down for hibernation and a minimum of expended energy.

So far, the argument is stacking up this way, based on our postings:

Pro-Heirloom: Taste, variety, challenge, thin skin, seed exchange

Pro-Hybrid: Disease resistance, temperature resistance, productivity

[TZ -OH6]

I can't say anything good about Delicious. It comes from Ponderosa, Crimson Cushion, Beefsteak (all the same thing) so its flavor is in the same catagory as the common red hybrids (average), which the original hybrid beefsteak (Big Boy) vastly improved upon. It doesn't live up to the size hype, and I had poor production the second time I grew it, when everything else around it was producing well. I wouldn't exactly call it an heirloom. I'm pretty sure it was it was developed by Burpee in the 1970s.


Yellow pear is a very old heirloom...one of the original tomato varieties in the US known from at least the mid 1800s. I think it is fun to eat even though the flavor is very mild. It is one of the few things around here tht gets killed off pretty easily by diseases, which is fine because once other varieties get rolling here I don't eat many cherries. I tend to put it in bad spots and forget about it so that may have something to do with it.

I had several heirloom varieties that were left standing after late blight killed off everything in this part of the country including the plants that were touching/surrounding them. I also had one or two varieties that were nearly killed by Septoria earlier in the summer when the rest were suffering moderate levels. The hybrids do not have resistance genes to the foliage diseases (septoria, early blight, bacterial speck etc). They may suffer less than some herilooms, but by no means all. The hybrid diseases (VFNT are either soil -root attacking diseases or insect carried viruses, so heat and humidity are not big factors for infection. Some popular varieties like Yellow pear and Green Zebra IMO are foliage disease prone, while many claim that potatoleaf varieties hold up better than regular leaf varieties.



https://www.garden.org/articles/articles.php?q=show&id=389

[soil]

I grow my own tomatoes from my own seed, they started out as hybrids and heirlooms. now they are neither. just a diversity of genetics with traits that I select for each year. and damn are they tasty, resistant, drought tolerant, and yield well too

[lj in ny]

I agree with a lot of the other posters about the poorly researched article. Green Zebra is OP not an heirloom (by the way)

As far as heirlooms only producing 2 fruits per plant...I've never had that experience even when I was starting out and didn't know the difference between hybrid and heirloom. I'm growing 2 Brandywines this year (known for being low producers) one plant has 14 tomatoes the other 11 (keep in mind it's late June and they won't really start producing until September)

Like many have stated- hybrids have a purpose and so do heirlooms. People grow one, the other or both for different and valid reasons. I prefer heirlooms because I like saving my own seed or trading seed from other tomato-files. Commercially grown seed often comes from 3rd world countries and is shipped across the globe. I'd rather get my seed from someone that grew it in their back yard- they probably didn't exploit any labor to harvest the seed, they are more likely to be concerned about what they are putting into the ground since they live there and aren't shipping the seed tens of thousands of miles to get to me. If I don't get seed in a trade I try to order from a company that has taken the safe seed pledge. Am I going to save the world? No, but I'd like to minimize my impact.

I only realized the difference between hybrid and heirloom a few years ago. Prior to that I grew both in my garden. I honestly never noticed a difference between productivity or disease resistance between the German Johnsons, Brandywines and Better Boys, Early Girls. I noticed a difference in taste and the thickness of the skins (disclaimer: I'm a foodie).

I'd suggest you try some different types of heirlooms- some that are betters suited to your climate. Check out the varieties that came out of Russia/Siberia. Keep an open mind. Decide what it is that you want out of your tomatoes; with all of the varieties out there (both hyb and heir) you should find sucess.

BTW- my tomatoes are going nuts this year. Thank You Cottonpicker Larry! I got a lot of seeds from you through an offer on another site. They are all doing great!

[applestar]

Commercially grown seed often comes from 3rd world countries and is shipped across the globe.

THAT'S an interesting point too. I've reached the conclusion that, as much as possible, I should purchase seeds and plants from nurseries close to my geological and climatic area, so that puts a whole another wrinkle to the idea.

[TZ -OH6]

Semantics. IMO the term heirloom is synonymous with OP when discussing tomatoes because there is almost no way for the average person to make a distinction when nearly all of the seed companies group them together. As far as a discussion of heirloom vs hybrid goes it doesn't matter. Old OP varieties have the same characteristics as new OP varieties. Green Zebra will qualify for heirloom status in 12 years by some people's definition (40 years). We may be able to call up this thread on this forum at that time.

[mansgirl]

I grew Brandywines last year, they produced wonderfully, and I keep finding little baby Brandywines peeking up this year even after the blight hit their parents last year. I was not overly wowed by their flavor, but then again, I'm not a big tomato enthusiast. I grow tomatoes strictly for making salsa. Whatever tomatoes I have extra I preserve so that I can make goulash and lasagna (etc.) in the winter.

I found that with the heirlooms all of the bumps and ridges made them too time consuming to peel. I guess if your going to go for the preservation method like I do, go for a hybrid. Once I add all of the other fun stuff to my salsa or goulash, I can't really tell a difference. Or, if you're going for that fresh BLT 'treat' grow an heirloom! : )

[applestar]

OT but do you do the boiling water dip to peel? If you dunk your tomatoes whole in boiling water for 30 seconds to a minute (turning with larger ones as necessary, and longer with the stem end down), the skin slips right off from a slit with a sharp knife. Same for peaches.

When processing tomatoes, I sometimes cut them in quarters and core them first, then strain after cooking to remove the skin and some of the seeds.

[lj in ny]

Also, there are plenty of smooth, round OP/Heirloom. Eva's Purple Ball and Super Sioux are 2 that come to mind off the top of my head. I blanch and peel tomatoes all summer long to make bruschetta and salsa with all sorts of sizes and shapes of tomatoes, it's not really an issue for me.

[TZ -OH6]

"I found that with the heirlooms all of the bumps and ridges"


This is a common stereotype, but it only applies to some of the beefsteak varieties, which just happen to be the most popular because of flavor. Last night I gathered some statistics from a Tomatoes Growers Supply catalog (2008?) (which I'll post later today). IIRC there were only three hybrids listed in the beefsteak section. Nearly all of the hybrids were in the red round section, and they were slightly less than half of the total. There were a few European hybrids in that had ridged shoulders (costoluto is the Italian term for it). The paste section had quite a few hybrids, about 1/3 of the offerings, and there were no oxheart hybrids. Round red, paste, and oxheart "heirlooms" almost never have nooks and crannies.

Another problem is with catfacing of the beefsteaks. After my first year processing some catfaced fruit when making sauce I decided that they were better culled from the plant while still green so that they wouldn't tick me off later in life.

[stella1751]

I can't say anything good about Delicious. It comes from Ponderosa, Crimson Cushion, Beefsteak (all the same thing) so its flavor is in the same catagory as the common red hybrids (average), which the original hybrid beefsteak (Big Boy) vastly improved upon. It doesn't live up to the size hype, and I had poor production the second time I grew it, when everything else around it was producing well. I wouldn't exactly call it an heirloom. I'm pretty sure it was it was developed by Burpee in the 1970s.

Well, that's disappointing to learn. I had decided I wanted to try a genuine heirloom, so I went to Totally Tomatoes for my seed, reasoning that a specialist would know its stuff. Truth be told, though, I had serious difficulties navigating its website; I wish they'd just put all heirlooms in one section instead of sorting tomatoes by size. You have to go to size first. I wanted large but not giant. Then you can navigate to heirlooms or hybrids. I went to large heirlooms, and there she was, the tomato of my nightmares (j/k), Delicious. 77 days. Perfect for Wyoming. Live and learn, right?

I've updated our pros list based upon recent postings and on something I remembered. Up here in Casper, if you grow heirlooms, you breathe rarified air. All, and I mean all, the serious gardeners grow heirlooms. The way they say it is, well, I don't mean to be harsh, snooty, like saying, "I matriculated at Harvard."

You ask them what kind, and almost everyone has at least one yellow pear and one brandywine. I've never heard of another variety being grown besides those two, but I don't belong to a garden club, either. These are just friends who also garden.

Anyway, following is the new list:

Pro-Heirloom: Taste, variety, challenge, thin skin, seed exchange, cachet

Pro-Hybrid: Disease resistance, temperature resistance, productivity, shape

Soil, I found your post interesting. Of all the tomatoes I've ever grown, the one I loved the most, all around (appearance, flavor, disease and temperature resistance, size), was something called a Husky. It was a hybrid, an indeterminate, but it was a dwarf, something I didn't notice until I got the plants home. Given the tiny size of my garden, I can't afford to give space to a dwarf. If I could get a Husky next year and save its seeds, I wonder whether the next generation might lose the dwarfism gene. That would be a plant to have, in my opinion.