An Argument against Heirlooms

[garden5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't mortgage lifter an heirloom noted for its exceptional yield?

I'm going OP all the way this year and must say that I'm getting quite a fruit-set so far.

[TZ -OH6]

This is a very interesting thread and had me looking for a way to best understand the topic at hand, so in order to find out what the hybrid’s place is in relation to tomatoes in general (for home gardeners) I went to my saved list of offerings from Tomato Growers Supply
(2007), which offers seeds in small enough packages for the home gardener, but also larger quantities for market gardeners, has a large listing of hybrids, and a decent listing of OP varieties. There are a handful of good hybrids not on this list, there are also many good heirlooms also not on the list, but I think this is probably a good representative sample to show the situation.


Hybrid Varieties
85 Red (3 beefsteak)
3 Pink, (0=beefsteak, vs. 39 pink OP beefsteaks (Brandywine et al.))
3 Yellow Orange
2 Pink cherry
3 Yellow cherry

As you can see, most hybrids fall into the category of round red. Why? Red fruit is desirable because the skin is more elastic, and generally thicker so red fruits tend to resist cracking and ship better. Round fruits are important for consumer satisfaction, and efficient packing for shipping. Consumers also prefer red fruits over other colors. Red fruit color is caused by the presence of the yellow epidermis gene allele, which is a regulatory gene that affects several things including some flavor components, so a red tomato is more likely to have a certain type of flavor consumers are used to.

Pink tomatoes (lacking the yellow epidermis allele), on the other hand, and especially pink beefsteaks, tend to be more famous for their flavor.



Common/Popular
These are the hybrids from the TGS list I have seen for sale as seed or seedlings around town. These range from average to very very good, but only a couple might consistently make the top ten in tomato tasting contests.

Red
Beefmaster VFN Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
Big Beef VFFNTA Hybrid
Big Boy Hybrid
Bush Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Bush Early Girl VFFNT Hybrid
Early Girl VFF Hybrid
Goliath VFFNT Hybrid
Jet Star VF Hybrid

Pink
Momotaro Hybrid pink from Japan

Yellow
Lemon Boy VFN Hybrid

Cherry
Sweet 100 Hybrid-red
Sweet Million FNT Hybrid-red
Sun Gold Hybrid cherry from Japan

Note how few popular hybrids there are. I have a feeling that the heirloom vs. hybrid debate is more or less an argument for or against about a dozen very similar tomatoes. I might not be far off saying it is often an argument comparing about a dozen round red tomatoes to pink beefsteaks (with the unusually temperamental Brandywine as their poster child).

From the data I would conclude that if you want a good to great tasting round red tomato and need reliable strong production year to year, a hybrid is a safe bet/sure thing. If you are plagued by one or more of the following diseases, V1,V2,F1,F2,F3,N,T,A and/or high temperatures you may be restricted to a subset of the hybrids,.... good luck with the flavor.




Data (hybrids/total offered)

Note that nearly all American hybrids on the list have been bred for disease resistance, which is difficult to do and retain flavor at the same time. The diseases are very specific, and even the resistances to Fusarium and Verticillium are dependent on the race occurring in your part of the country. Compare the resistances of the three following hybrids.

Big Boy Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
Big Beef VFFNTA Hybrid

Disease resistance genes: Verticillium wilt race I, Fusarium wilt race I, Fusarium wilt race II, root knot Nematodes, Tobacco mosaic virus, Anthracnose.

Big Boy has no specific disease resistances, Better Boy will get wiped out in a part of the country having Fusarium race II instead of or in addition to Fusarium race I. Big Beef is good to go almost anywhere except regions suffering from Fusarium race III. So it is important to know exactly which diseases (if any) are problematic in your region. These diseases usually take a few seasons to build up in your garden. It is rare to have them present when you first start, and crop rotation helps to keep levels low.


Big Boy was the first hybrid put on the market back in 1949 it was bred for flavor, looks, and reliable production. It is still one of the top tasting hybrids, which shows how little emphasis hybridizers have placed on that quality in the past 60 years. Sun Gold hybrid (Japanese), which has no disease resistance genes bred into it, tends to crack, and is not red, but is often at the #1 spot on tomato tasting contests.



TGS categories (hybrids vs. total varieties offered)

Oxhearts (0/9)

Black (0/17)

Bicolor (0/19)

Green (0/9)

White (0/9)

Yellow and Orange (6/53)
Lemon Boy VFN Hybrid
Sweet Gold FT Hybrid
**Golden Gem Hybrid cherry from China
Golden Girl VFNTA Hybrid
**Sun Gold Hybrid cherry from Japan
SunSugar FT Hybrid

Paste (7/27)
Classica VFFNA Hybrid
Halley 3155 VFF Hybrid
LaRoma II VFFNA Hybrid
Margherita VF Hybrid
Super Marzano VFNT Hybrid
Victoria Supreme VFFNA Hybrid
Viva Italia VFFNA

Small Fruited (14/37)
Cherry Grande VF Hybrid
**Jolly Hybrid pink
Juliet Hybrid
Mountain Belle VF Hybrid
Patio F Hybrid
Small Fry VFN Hybrid
Sugar Snack NT Hybrid
Sun Cherry FT Hybrid
Sweet 100 Hybrid
Sweet Baby Girl Hybrid
Sweet Chelsea VFNT Hybrid
Sweet Million FNT Hybrid
**Sweet Quartz VFNT Hybrid pink
Window Box Roma VFN Hybrid

Beefsteak (3/66)
Beefmaster VFN Hybrid
Big Bite VFFNT Hybrid
Burpee's Supersteak VFN Hybrid


Early Season (6/31)
Applause VFFA Hybrid
Bush Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Bush Early Girl VFFNT Hybrid
Early Girl VFF Hybrid
Jetsetter VFFNTA Hybrid
Pilgrim VFFA Hybrid

Late Season (0/20)

Mid Season (55/94)
Ace-High Improved VFFNA Hybrid
Ball's Beefsteak VFFT Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
BHN 444 VFF Hybrid
BHN 589 VFFT Hybrid
BHN 640 VFFF Hybrid
Big Beef VFFNTA Hybrid
Big Boy Hybrid
Big Pick VFNT Hybrid
Bush Champion VFFA Hybrid
Cabernet VFFNTA Hybrid
Cavalier VFNTA Hybrid
Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Champion II VFNT Hybrid
Cluster Grande FFA
Cobra VFT Hybrid
Crimson Fancy VFFA Hybrid
Duke VFA Hybrid
Fantastic Hybrid
First Prize VFFNT Hybrid
Floralina VFFFA Hybrid
Florida 91 VFF Hybrid
Giant Valentine VFA Hybrid
Goliath VFFNT Hybrid
Health Kick VFFA Hybrid
Heartland VFN Hybrid
**Honey Hybrid pink
Husky Red VF Hybrid
Jet Star VF Hybrid
Keepsake VFFNTA Hybrid
**Momotaro pink from Japan
Monte Carlo VFN
Mountain Spring VFF Hybrid
Pik-Red VF Hybrid
**Pink Girl VFT Hybrid pink
Royesta FFNT Hybrid
Salsa VFT Hybrid
Sausalito VFFA Hybrid
Shady Lady VFTA Hybrid
Solar Fire VFFF Heat-tolerant
Solar Set VFF Hybrid Heat-tolerant
Spitfire VFFA Hybrid crimson gene
Sun King VFTA Hybrid
Sun Leaper VFF Hybrid Heat-tolerant
Sunbeam VFFA Hybrid
Sunmaster VFFA Hybrid Heat-tolerant
Sunny VFA Hybrid
Super Fantastic VF Hybrid
Supersonic VF Hybrid
Sweet Cluster VFNT Hybrid
Terrific VFN Hybrid
Tiffany VFNT Hybrid
Tomande VFFNT Hybrid
Ultra Boy VFN Hybrid

[gixxerific]

This is a great thread Stella as usual.

TZ brings up my point stated earlier.

As you can see, most hybrids fall into the category of round red. Why? Red fruit is desirable because the skin is more elastic, and generally thicker so red fruits tend to resist cracking and ship better. Round fruits are important for consumer satisfaction, and efficient packing for shipping.

Who not in the know wants a black, white, yellow tomato. That is the devil's fruit. They are supposed to be red and perfect. "How much extra for real flavor" you have to ask.

Step out of the box as Taco Bell might say (Gix.... hiding from impending lawsuits). Try something new if that doesn't work try another variety there are literally thousands to choose from.

My 2 cents.

[TZ -OH6]

I have a hard time giving away anything that is not round red and 6-12 oz, (or cherries) to the neighbors. Funny colors are not appreciated, nor are 1.5 lb nobby pink things...too much to eat at one sitting.

Barring another Late blight disaster I'm going to put a table in the drive way this year with a sign for free tomatoes and see how many people take green when ripe, red and yellow bicolors, or long pointy paste tomatoes.

[stella1751]

TZ -OH6, your post brought home a powerful point to me; I'm not certain whether that was your intention or not. When I read through the list of hybrids offered, I recognized many, many a name from my own past gardens. Of the hybrids listed, I have tried the following in the last 20 years:

Lemon Boy VFN Hybrid
Patio F Hybrid
Sweet 100 Hybrid
Beefmaster VFN Hybrid
Bush Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Early Girl VFF Hybrid
Better Boy VFN Hybrid
Bush Champion VFFA Hybrid (Better Bush?)
Celebrity VFFNTA Hybrid
Husky Red VF Hybrid
Jet Star VF Hybrid

Four others I remember trying but didn't see on your list:

Heatwave
Fourth of July
Black Prince
Rutgers

In the past 20 years I have tried the following heirlooms:

Golden Queen
Yellow Pear (grown many, many years without realizing it was a hybrid)
Delicious

So I have tried 15 hybrids and 3 heirlooms. (There might be more hybrids; I get all the "Boys" mixed up, and I suspect I'm forgetting a cherry or two.) I clearly haven't given heirlooms the chance I have given hybrids.

Of the 3 heirlooms, the Golden Queen had no trouble with blossom set, but the fruit was ugly (sorry). The Yellow Pears never developed a disease or refused to set fruit. In fact, I quit growing them because they were too prolific. I could pick four plants for an hour every three or four days, filling a five gallon pail each time, and still have fruit dropping to the ground. The Delicious is the only one refusing to set blossoms, but it is quite healthy. Ergo, 100% of heirlooms were disease free, 66% set fruit. Yes, it's an insufficient sampling for a conclusive study, but I think it screams I need to try other heirloom varieties.

Of the 15 hybrids, my best growing experiences were with the Early Girls, the Husky Red, and the Black Prince. I can remember, looking back through the haze of time, that I was dissatisfied with the Jet Star, the Bush Celebrity, and the Heatwaves. I can't remember why, but I think disease was the problem, one of the leaf diseases that works it way from bottom up, like septoria leaf spot. Either that or cracking. (My fault, not theirs)

At any rate, what matters is that I have been judging heirlooms by this Delicious, worrying, based largely upon the pejorative language used in that article, that I had committed myself to something weak and feeble.

Here's another thought: Why do I try hybrids before I try heirlooms? I try hybrids first because I rarely start my own tomato seeds. It's easier to run to Home Depot and Wal-Mart in the spring and pick up what they have to offer, especially given the diminutive size of my garden. With the exception of Yellow Pears, my local nurseries offer hybrids only.

Because I was determined to try heirlooms this year, I had to start my own seeds. It's not a hardship, but you can sure wind up with too many plants going that route. I have twelve non-producers in my back yard right now

Interesting story: Yesterday, a woman who lives a few blocks down stopped by to see what I was growing out front this year. She's what we call a Snow Bird, wintering down south and summering up here. She told me she had bought a Big Boy, but she was disappointed: It was dropping its blossoms after two days.

Man, I don't think we've been any hotter than usual this summer, but I suppose I could be wrong.

[gixxerific]

There is another thing to look at Stella, the heat. I'm not sure what the temp is around you but it has been hot as hell around here and that is hurting the tom's. Just this Mon it came back to normal and I saw the first tomato flower I have seen in several weeks.

Another thing I have noticed is at least a couple of the better nursery's around are now carrying heirlooms. So you may be able to find them without starting the seed yourself, but hey, that is half the fun to me.

[TZ -OH6]

Garden 5,

Mortgage Lifter (Radiator Charlies) might be a heavy produceer in some places, I don't know. I have grown it twice from different sources. It acted just like all of the other pink beefsteaks until the second half of the season and then it just petered out. Any fruits growing/picked during the last month were very small. Possibly it needs a warmer climate. I won't be growing it again or recommending it.


Stella, Rutgers and Black Prince are Heirlooms/OP. Rutgers (introduced in 1934) is an example of a very very successful commercial variety that ran its course because farmers needed VFN resistance or a 5% greater yield.

"Not only did this provide a top performing tomato for New Jersey’s canning industries Campbell’s, Heinz and Ritter, but continued to be the preferred choice of 75 percent of commercial growers for the remainder of the twentieth century"

https://njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/WhatabouttheRutgersTomato.htm

https://njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/documents/Rutgerstomatorelease.pdf


Black Prince is also an OP/heirloom commercial variety. The Soviet Union did not allow private gardens for the most part, and did not develop/distribute hybrid seeds for the most part, so it is a safe bet that anything coming out of eastern Europe was originally a CV. I give Black Prince a C+, B- for flavor. It is pretty good until you compare it to one of the better blacks.

A big problem with heirlooms is you either don't find enough (local seeds and plants) or you find too many (online seed sources), so it is pretty easy to get duds from the lucky of the draw. A few years ago you could look at a favorites thread on the heavy tomato forums and get a good solid list of standards (Brandywine, Cherokee Purple, Anna Russian, Aunt Gerties Gold, Evergreen, etc) But today so many people have tried so many, including a big influx of Eastern European varieties that a favorites thread is filled with flavor's of the month and not much better than looking at a huge seed venders' listing.

[stella1751]

The Black Prince was an heirloom? That was one of the first tomatoes I ever grew. I liked it so much I tried to find it again and have looked for it since, but I have never seen it. It was a small tomato. I don't remember it being a cherry, but it was small. The big thing about it was that it was virtually unstoppable, with more fruit than foliage.

The Rutgers was crammed in next to an inordinately prolific Early Girl. It produced, but its position was in the shade for much of the day once the Early Girl began producing.

Thinking ahead: Heirloom producers, what are your five favorite varieties, listed in order of preference. What do you like best about each one?

[lj in ny]

My top 5 are listed but I can't say which one is my favorite since they are all so different (Black Krim is REALLY good though!)
Green Zebra- I've grown it for several years, it's the only GWR I've grown (I'm growing a bunch this year to compare)
Dr Wyche's Yellow-Big Yummy Beefsteak
Black Cherry-best cherry tomato I've every had
Black Krim -great smokey flavor
Stupice- nice round red, heavy producer.

Last year was the first year I grew all heirlooms. I got wiped out by late blight before I got a good taste of all 24 that I grew. Everybody got wiped out by late blight in my area (hybrids and heirlooms) so don't see that as a failing of the heirloom. I'm growing 39 varieties this year so I suspect my list will change before the end of the season.

[gixxerific]

Black Cherry-best cherry tomato I've every had

I agree, sorry a bit off topic here but I must put in my 2 cents. I am growing several Black Cherry myself this year. As I said I agree this is the best cherry ever in my book. Everyone I have seen on the net say's it is the best out there with some saying best tomato ever in there garden. My wife, kids, friends can't get enough, nor can I.

Back to where we were.

[TZ -OH6]

I pulled up and retitled the favorites thread I posted in the spring.



Stella, I'm sure you can get free seeds for Black Prince someplace

Nyagous looks and tastes identical, is a bit more productive (both put on loads of fruit though) and doesn't have the shoulder cracking.

[garden5]

TZ, what does "CS" mean? "Cultivated variety"?

I'm glad to hear black krim tastes so good as I'm growing it this year. Is black cherry different from chocolate cherry?

[TZ -OH6]

CV = Commercial Variety


Something that was bred for farmers for market purposes as opposed to something that originated in Granny's garden.

[Urban_Garden]

Last year I grew two types of hybrid and got only a handful of tomatoes ( a dozen or so maybe?)
Now, I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but on my heirloom (German and Yellow Pear), I have over 60 blooms in just my tiny kitchen garden and roughly 20 green tomatoes so far, with dozens of green blossoms getting ready to explode into that yellow awesomeness. Roughly %80 of my garden is OP and heirloom, the rest are hybrids, I'm not a purist.

[stella1751]

My Deliciouses, now 2' to 3' tall, healthy, vigorous, and covered with blossoms, have yet to set one tomato. Last night, we again tied a record low of 39 degrees. I picked a bad summer to attempt a diva. From extreme cold to extreme heat and back to extreme cold, it's been an odd summer up here.

The ten-day forecast predicts normal Casper temps: highs in the 80's, lows around 50. Maybe that will turn the tide in my favor.

Next summer, based upon what other members have written, I think I will try Black Krim or that Eva one Larry mentioned.

[garden5]

CV = Commercial Variety


Something that was bred for farmers for market purposes as opposed to something that originated in Granny's garden.

Thanks, that makes sense, now.

Also, sometimes when someone tries an heirloom and has a bad experience, it may have been the strain it was from. It doesn't necessarily mean that the variety itself is wrong.

[stella1751]

My Deliciouses are producing! It wasn't the heat that was causing blossom drop; it was the cold. Because this June was the coldest and wettest I've ever seen in Wyoming, I really can't say whether even a hybrid would have produced, though my neighbor's hybrids have been producing.

It's easy to tell when our periodic cold spells ended, just by looking at the plants. July 8 was our last day below 40. After that, I have tomatoes: Little guys, but tomatoes nonetheless.

I revived this thread, though, to mention something that hit me yesterday about the article I used to start it. The author said something about heirlooms only producing two tomatoes per plant. I was watching my tomatoes grow yesterday, and it occurred to me that there were only one or two tomatoes per vine, all the way up.

The author didn't do his research. He lost credibility with me, as did the magazine. I feel cheated. One little error like this makes me suspect he just regurgitated, and not well, the information he was likely provided by another. He appears now in the light of a mouthpiece for Monsanto.

I've lost respect for the magazine, too. I used to believe the Scientific American was a reputable trade periodical. Not anymore. There's a huge difference between a plant and a vine

[gixxerific]

2 per plant is crazy and 2 per vine is subjective.

I get more than 2 per vine on some plants. In fact thinking about it most not all of my groupings has been 3 sometimes more.

I will definitely grow heirlooms again next year. Though I may throw in a know heavy producer to see if it does any better. I have been getting a ton of tomatoes but most of them so far have been cracked up. So I have been coring them and freezing them to save up for some canning. Though some have come out real pretty. I blame the weather for now it has been so ungodly hot and humid.

[stella1751]

I'm getting one tomato per vine in most cases. Occasionally, there are two. In a way, I think this is a good thing. If these large tomatoes grew six to eight per vine like my Lemon Boys last year, they would be seriously crunched. The Lemon Boys weighed from six to eight ounces each; these are supposed to weigh from 1 to 2 pounds.

In fact, I think one of my plants may have a three-tomato vine, but it's already too crunched and tangled for me to tell without taking a chance on losing one of the two tomatoes I can see. I have roughly 5 dozen tomatoes, total, on 12 plants, and each tomato is precious.

BTW, the imperfectly pollinated blossom I was watching way back when I started this thread is still there, as are two tomato/blossoms in the same state on that vine. It hasn't changed one iota: still green, still expanded, and stigma still sticking out. I really think it thinks it is making a tomato.

I will grow heirlooms again. I like the challenge. I like many of the varieties I saw in DV's thread. I also may be getting caught up in the status of the endeavor. A few days ago, I caught myself telling my neighbor, "Yes, but mine are heirlooms." Sigh.

94 degrees today; 96 tomorrow. Then we have a long spate of regular Wyoming temperatures. I'll have my tomatoes this year!

My problem with that article is that the author made a glaring error. If there's one error, there could be others. Who can tell?

[bird dog]

I don't know if anybody has said it yet but do a little search on the other articles this guy has written, I'm no way taking his advise to the bank.