Duh Vinci was comparing similar sized (fairly large) plants from small cells (1.5") to the same sized plants from 6 inch pots, which just happened to be potted up twice.
If you put a seed in a six inch pot and grow it to 10 inches before planting out you will get better fruit production than if you dense plant seeds, separate them into small pots and then pot them up one or two more times (finally to a six inch pot) before planting them out on the same date.
Most home gardeners start seeds in something the size of a jiffy pellet, or dense plant several seeds in something that size and then pot up once to a 3-4 inch pot or larger. Some farmers stress that your should pot up at least 2-3 times before you get to the final pot size, but what I posted was that the scientific evidence shows that the fewer times you have to radically disturb the roots by potting up the stronger the plant will be. The difference in overall seasonal production isn't that great (a few fruits per plant) even though it is statistically and economically significant.
The point is that you want your seedlings in a fairly large pot (compared to the size of the plant) before they go in the garden for best results.
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"When a tomato breeder is looking for unusual traits in tomatoes to possibly breed a new variety, are they looking for a tomato with unusual traits or are they looking for an entire plant which displays the same unusual trait in all the tomatoes on the plant. What are the probabilities of carrying on an anomaly from a single tomato versus an anomaly in an entire plant?"
Breeders are working with genetic recombinations that affect entire plants. Rare somatic mutations that affect parts of plants are usually accidentally found in large patches of a single variety, and yes the traits (if genetic) will be passed on through the seeds of the fruit from that part of the plant. These mutations are usually single gene traits so you might get a color difference but not a flavor or growth difference.
There are some environmental effects especially in fruit shape so you can get both pointed and plum shaped fruit on the same plant depending on what temperature the fruit developed at, and certain bicolor fruits will develop more or less red vs yellow color
If you put a seed in a six inch pot and grow it to 10 inches before planting out you will get better fruit production than if you dense plant seeds, separate them into small pots and then pot them up one or two more times (finally to a six inch pot) before planting them out on the same date.
Most home gardeners start seeds in something the size of a jiffy pellet, or dense plant several seeds in something that size and then pot up once to a 3-4 inch pot or larger. Some farmers stress that your should pot up at least 2-3 times before you get to the final pot size, but what I posted was that the scientific evidence shows that the fewer times you have to radically disturb the roots by potting up the stronger the plant will be. The difference in overall seasonal production isn't that great (a few fruits per plant) even though it is statistically and economically significant.
The point is that you want your seedlings in a fairly large pot (compared to the size of the plant) before they go in the garden for best results.
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"When a tomato breeder is looking for unusual traits in tomatoes to possibly breed a new variety, are they looking for a tomato with unusual traits or are they looking for an entire plant which displays the same unusual trait in all the tomatoes on the plant. What are the probabilities of carrying on an anomaly from a single tomato versus an anomaly in an entire plant?"
Breeders are working with genetic recombinations that affect entire plants. Rare somatic mutations that affect parts of plants are usually accidentally found in large patches of a single variety, and yes the traits (if genetic) will be passed on through the seeds of the fruit from that part of the plant. These mutations are usually single gene traits so you might get a color difference but not a flavor or growth difference.
There are some environmental effects especially in fruit shape so you can get both pointed and plum shaped fruit on the same plant depending on what temperature the fruit developed at, and certain bicolor fruits will develop more or less red vs yellow color
wolfi,
I will continue up potting until I find what I consider the perfect size seed growing container which I can purchase from a local supplier. I like to use stuff I can always find at a local hardware store or grocery store without placing a special order.
I hope to do what I think the producers of the cell pack seedlings do which is, plant the seed, grow the seedling, and sell the seedling. In my case, it will be plant the seed, grow the seedling, and transplant and grow the plant.
I did do a little more reading about the root structure of tomato plants. If I understand the material already referenced in this thread, Carolyn Male recommends up potting simply because it disturbs the tap root causing the seedling to create more fibrous horizontal, and vertical roots which are advantageous in the home garden. The fibrous root structure makes the plant more adaptable to transplanting and growing in the home garden.
According to some, additional research seems to not reveal evidence that having the fibrous root structure prior to transplanting is advantageous. It seems it could go either way. If I grow once and transplant once, the tap root will have been disturbed, and the fibrous structure will be formed. The method I want to use may or may not delay development of the plant by a couple of days in the garden.
Ted
I will continue up potting until I find what I consider the perfect size seed growing container which I can purchase from a local supplier. I like to use stuff I can always find at a local hardware store or grocery store without placing a special order.
I hope to do what I think the producers of the cell pack seedlings do which is, plant the seed, grow the seedling, and sell the seedling. In my case, it will be plant the seed, grow the seedling, and transplant and grow the plant.
I did do a little more reading about the root structure of tomato plants. If I understand the material already referenced in this thread, Carolyn Male recommends up potting simply because it disturbs the tap root causing the seedling to create more fibrous horizontal, and vertical roots which are advantageous in the home garden. The fibrous root structure makes the plant more adaptable to transplanting and growing in the home garden.
According to some, additional research seems to not reveal evidence that having the fibrous root structure prior to transplanting is advantageous. It seems it could go either way. If I grow once and transplant once, the tap root will have been disturbed, and the fibrous structure will be formed. The method I want to use may or may not delay development of the plant by a couple of days in the garden.
Ted
Correct, pot up once or start the seed in the large final pot (hope you have alot of lights if you do that).
This discussion seems to get revisited evey year on some forums, mainly because 2-3 studies in that chapter get mixed together in peoples' arguements.
The fibrous root study was simply between direct seeding into the garden vs starting someplace else and transplanting to the garden. It had nothing to do with potting up. If you direct plant in the garden the plant tends to grow a tap root deep into the cold soil, which slows growth. This is an evolutionary survival mechanism in the wild where securing a long term water source is the plants first priority. Simply disturbing the tap root by transplanting causes lateral roots to form off of the damaged tap root. This keeps the feeder roots in warm soil early in the season. Life is not always predictable so it is not guaranteed that you will get better results every time all things being equal, but starting indoors in pots (transplanting) also gives you a jump on the season, so both things considered it is not the best choice to direct seed tomatoes in the garden. Many other vegetables hate to have their roots disturbed so we are stuck direct seeding them.
I start my seeds in small cells (1x1.5" six pack things), generally 3-5 seeds of a variety per cell. After they grow true leaves and look crowded they get pulled apart and put in their final pots. I'm not too picky about final pots. Anything from 3"cell flats to 32 oz deli containers seem to give the same results if I time seeding date to last frost date correctly. Organizing my space is more important, and I don't know how strong the seedlings will be because each variety is different. Wimpy Cherokee Purple seedlings really don't need to be in huge pots because they will still be rather small when I plant them out. I do like the convenience of the 3" 18 cell flats for moving lots of plants in and out on warm sunny days, even if they seem a bit small for the stronger varieties.
This discussion seems to get revisited evey year on some forums, mainly because 2-3 studies in that chapter get mixed together in peoples' arguements.
The fibrous root study was simply between direct seeding into the garden vs starting someplace else and transplanting to the garden. It had nothing to do with potting up. If you direct plant in the garden the plant tends to grow a tap root deep into the cold soil, which slows growth. This is an evolutionary survival mechanism in the wild where securing a long term water source is the plants first priority. Simply disturbing the tap root by transplanting causes lateral roots to form off of the damaged tap root. This keeps the feeder roots in warm soil early in the season. Life is not always predictable so it is not guaranteed that you will get better results every time all things being equal, but starting indoors in pots (transplanting) also gives you a jump on the season, so both things considered it is not the best choice to direct seed tomatoes in the garden. Many other vegetables hate to have their roots disturbed so we are stuck direct seeding them.
I start my seeds in small cells (1x1.5" six pack things), generally 3-5 seeds of a variety per cell. After they grow true leaves and look crowded they get pulled apart and put in their final pots. I'm not too picky about final pots. Anything from 3"cell flats to 32 oz deli containers seem to give the same results if I time seeding date to last frost date correctly. Organizing my space is more important, and I don't know how strong the seedlings will be because each variety is different. Wimpy Cherokee Purple seedlings really don't need to be in huge pots because they will still be rather small when I plant them out. I do like the convenience of the 3" 18 cell flats for moving lots of plants in and out on warm sunny days, even if they seem a bit small for the stronger varieties.
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applestar
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This year, I'm starting out mostly in community pots and flats, with a few in individual small pots. But all with at least 3" depth. It seems to me that the seedlings grow better with less stalling out issues in community pots and flats.
There IS the part about entangling roots and some root loss when trying to separate them if you let them grow too big together.... Also, as soon as you uppot in larger community pots or individual pots, you instantly need MUCH MORE growing space
There IS the part about entangling roots and some root loss when trying to separate them if you let them grow too big together.... Also, as soon as you uppot in larger community pots or individual pots, you instantly need MUCH MORE growing space
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gixxerific
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DEFINITELY which is why mid April better come soon you all know what I have and it needs a permanent home fast.applestar wrote: Also, as soon as you uppot in larger community pots or individual pots, you instantly need MUCH MORE growing space
By the way AS I planted 2 today no cover as of yet. That's how I roll.
This year, I uppotted from the 3" cells in the flat that I was working with. I waited until the plants had their secondary leaves before transplanting.
Just for kicks, I left two in their cells and transplanted the rest. I transplanted into space nearly 5x the size of the small 3" cell I was in.
The two plants left in the cells are nearly half the size of the others. They also still have secondary leaves but nothign beyond that.
The ones I transplanted meanwhile are on their 3rd and one is even on it's 4th set of leaves. They have really taken off.
Everything was watered at the same time, under the same light in order to keep conditions the same.
Just for kicks, I left two in their cells and transplanted the rest. I transplanted into space nearly 5x the size of the small 3" cell I was in.
The two plants left in the cells are nearly half the size of the others. They also still have secondary leaves but nothign beyond that.
The ones I transplanted meanwhile are on their 3rd and one is even on it's 4th set of leaves. They have really taken off.
Everything was watered at the same time, under the same light in order to keep conditions the same.
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gixxerific
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D_V do it if your not sacred. Plant those maters. I'm with Ted
All I know is that is up in the 70's 80's this week and all kinds of things have been blooming for a few weeks here. I can feel it, all that scientific data by the way side, I just feel it.
Heck I should be out there cutting my grass right now. Here it goes from winter to summer in a few day's
Plant those maters. I'm with Ted Half the stuff I do in my garden is "just for kicks".
All I know is that is up in the 70's 80's this week and all kinds of things have been blooming for a few weeks here. I can feel it, all that scientific data by the way side, I just feel it.
Heck I should be out there cutting my grass right now. Here it goes from winter to summer in a few day's
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applestar
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Sunny and high of 78ºF and 79ºF forecast for Fri and Sat! I don't know if I believe it! Did you see my panic post about sleet today?
As soon as it stopped raining, I was going to thoroughly tuck the sides of my temporary, plastic-covered hammock stand "green house" and even double-sheet the plastic per HG's comment. But what's the point if it's going to be over 100ºF in the sun on Fri and Sat?
I just uppotted my Principe Borgheses and 3rd gen. Sugar Plums, and they're huddled in the corner of the window bench lit by a clip-on 10" reflector CFL light with a bunch of aluminum takeout container covers surrounding them. (Whatever the naysayers may say, with vs. without the reflective materials surrounding the plants makes an ENORMOUS difference
)
As soon as it stopped raining, I was going to thoroughly tuck the sides of my temporary, plastic-covered hammock stand "green house" and even double-sheet the plastic per HG's comment. But what's the point if it's going to be over 100ºF in the sun on Fri and Sat?
I just uppotted my Principe Borgheses and 3rd gen. Sugar Plums, and they're huddled in the corner of the window bench lit by a clip-on 10" reflector CFL light with a bunch of aluminum takeout container covers surrounding them. (Whatever the naysayers may say, with vs. without the reflective materials surrounding the plants makes an ENORMOUS difference
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The Helpful Gardener
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Low 40's. Rain finally let up about two hours ago. Mom called from the line at Big Orange Box where she had gone to get a sump pump as theirs burned out; the truck with pumps was on it's way with another behind it, but she was fifty people back in a line just for sump pumps and by the time we got off the phone (a minute) it was ten deep behind her. When she called back to say she got the last of four pumps on the first truck (whew what a relief!) the line was no shorter than when she got in it, and sno sign of the second truck...
We were battling it here in the basement at home ourselves; I willl have to dry off in my bathrobe tomorrow because every towel is used. The sump pump runs every twenty seconds or so; it was not this bad after the heavy rains last week. THe ground is saturated and can hold no more...
More to the point my garden had standing water in the rows inches deep, still does. But my hilled rows are six or eight inches out of the water, so the best soil is still aerated and not drowning. I'll be good to plant soon. But I wouldn't set a plant out until nights are surely in the fifties and we are likely a month at least to that point. You all are particularly jumpy this year...
I like the idea of the least amount of moves. If you have the room to pull it off I think you would develop a better tomato by letting it develop a soil all it's own from the start. Knowing what we know about the soil/plant interfaces of mycorhizal fungi directly feeding the tomato, or the bacterial populations feeding on root exudates from the plant (specific exudate attracting particular species in some cases), and them feeding protista who release the resulting nitrogen (everybody poops) in the immediate vicinity of the plant roots, the weak acids of their metabolisms etching mineral supplements out of the parent material in the soil, well, I think you mess that up a good deal in a repot and new soil, that may or may not suit all that biology your tomato worked so hard to make...
Y'know?
HG
We were battling it here in the basement at home ourselves; I willl have to dry off in my bathrobe tomorrow because every towel is used. The sump pump runs every twenty seconds or so; it was not this bad after the heavy rains last week. THe ground is saturated and can hold no more...
More to the point my garden had standing water in the rows inches deep, still does. But my hilled rows are six or eight inches out of the water, so the best soil is still aerated and not drowning. I'll be good to plant soon. But I wouldn't set a plant out until nights are surely in the fifties and we are likely a month at least to that point. You all are particularly jumpy this year...
I like the idea of the least amount of moves. If you have the room to pull it off I think you would develop a better tomato by letting it develop a soil all it's own from the start. Knowing what we know about the soil/plant interfaces of mycorhizal fungi directly feeding the tomato, or the bacterial populations feeding on root exudates from the plant (specific exudate attracting particular species in some cases), and them feeding protista who release the resulting nitrogen (everybody poops) in the immediate vicinity of the plant roots, the weak acids of their metabolisms etching mineral supplements out of the parent material in the soil, well, I think you mess that up a good deal in a repot and new soil, that may or may not suit all that biology your tomato worked so hard to make...
Y'know?
HG
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gixxerific
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You could be very right HG and I'm saying you are wrong. Since I have NEVER planted tomatoes by seed in the ground. But the ones I have been growing in the basement are huge and have been transplanted several times, some of them. usually in a slightly different mix of soil.
If the weather is looking to be good for the 15 day( yeah right 15 day forecast is there such a thing) I will do my best to plant some of my seedlings if the there is room with some of my big plants. I would even like to plant some seed and see how they all fair together given my specific circumstances.
Though I truly believe that by seed would be the better performer. You just have to look outside the lines to get these things done. It is not a very popular idea so there again it is society and our learning, bringing up, that may be holding us back. Change is hard for some, this year we shall see it will be a lot different for some of us.
Keep it real people but don't be afraid to live on the edge.
Oh HG if it makes you feel any better I watered lightly my seedlings at least today. It has been wet as all get out here but it's has finally dried out a bit.
If the weather is looking to be good for the 15 day( yeah right 15 day forecast is there such a thing) I will do my best to plant some of my seedlings if the there is room with some of my big plants. I would even like to plant some seed and see how they all fair together given my specific circumstances.
Though I truly believe that by seed would be the better performer. You just have to look outside the lines to get these things done. It is not a very popular idea so there again it is society and our learning, bringing up, that may be holding us back. Change is hard for some, this year we shall see it will be a lot different for some of us.
Keep it real people but don't be afraid to live on the edge.
Oh HG if it makes you feel any better I watered lightly my seedlings at least today. It has been wet as all get out here but it's has finally dried out a bit.
Last edited by gixxerific on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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applestar
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That's right HG, we're ALL building a HUGE green house for next spring so we can do exactly that! 
... don't I wish ...
Good luck in your and your mom's basements. Good thing this isn't happening to Gixx -- he was only talking "figuratively" about letting his toms sink or swim... and he was talking about them weathering the early spring conditions.
... don't I wish ... Good luck in your and your mom's basements. Good thing this isn't happening to Gixx -- he was only talking "figuratively" about letting his toms sink or swim... and he was talking about them weathering the early spring conditions.
It's going to be 70s here during the day and 40s during the night... I am going to set some early girls out tomorrow before I go to work and see how they do, I don't have time to plant them in the ground, got work all day then class tomorrow night so who knows maybe I can plant thursday?? I am eager beaver tho!
I think I found the perfect pot/pots to plant my seedlings in today. I had pretty well made up my mind that some size of plastic drinking cup would fill the bill because they are easily available, cheap, come in various colors for color coding plant varieties, and a few other reasons.
I actually chose two cups. one drops easily into the other with about 1/4" clearance between the inner cup and the outer cup walls. I found I could cut a small hole in the bottom of the inner cup, fill it with soil, and pour about 3/4" of water into the second cup. When I insert the inner cup of soil into the cup with water, the water rises about one half the way up the outside of the inner cup. The soil in the inner cup wicks the water from the outer cup into the inner cup. It seems to work best if the soil is already moist (molecular attraction I guess). With the seed planted above the water line, it should be self watering, but not wet. The water in the outer cup may act like a mini wall of water between the soil and the air if you want to sit it outside for a little sunlight. I'm trying it out right now on some of the seed from Brad Davis.
I forgot to mention the inner cup is clear plastic while the outer cup is colored. That allows me to lift the inner cup at any time to look at the root development of the plant.
Ted
I actually chose two cups. one drops easily into the other with about 1/4" clearance between the inner cup and the outer cup walls. I found I could cut a small hole in the bottom of the inner cup, fill it with soil, and pour about 3/4" of water into the second cup. When I insert the inner cup of soil into the cup with water, the water rises about one half the way up the outside of the inner cup. The soil in the inner cup wicks the water from the outer cup into the inner cup. It seems to work best if the soil is already moist (molecular attraction I guess). With the seed planted above the water line, it should be self watering, but not wet. The water in the outer cup may act like a mini wall of water between the soil and the air if you want to sit it outside for a little sunlight. I'm trying it out right now on some of the seed from Brad Davis.
I forgot to mention the inner cup is clear plastic while the outer cup is colored. That allows me to lift the inner cup at any time to look at the root development of the plant.
Ted
Last edited by tedln on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SarahSarah
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Ted can you post a pic of your contraption. Sounds cool. When I was little I used to plant seeds in mason jars to watch the roots grow.tedln wrote:I think I found the perfect pot/pots to plant my seedlings in today. I had pretty well made up my mind that some size of plastic drinking cup would fill the bill because they are easily available, cheap, come in various colors for color coding plant varieties, and a few other reasons.
I actually chose two cups. one drops easily into the other with about 1/4" clearance between the inner cup and the outer cup walls. I found I could cut a small hole in the bottom of the inner cup, fill it with soil, and pour about 3/4" of water into the second cup. When I insert the inner cup of soil into the cup with water, the water rises about one half the way up the outside of the inner cup. The soil in the inner cup wicks the water from the outer cup into the inner cup. It seems to work best if the soil is already moist (molecular attraction I guess). With the seed planted above the water line, it should be self watering, but not wet. The water in the outer cup may act like a mini wall of water between the soil and the air if you want to sit it outside for a little sunlight. I'm trying it out right now on some of the seed from Brad Davis.
I forgot to mention the inner cup is clear plastic while the outer cup is colored. That allows me to lift the inner cup at any time to look at the root development of the plant.
Ted
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The Helpful Gardener
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Thanks for the thoughts; I am done crying about the little bit of water here (the pump is holding up and running once a minute or so now), but Mom thought she had a handle on it and went to sleep with the new pump off and awoke to several inches of water; heading over tomorrow to help with the recovery... R.I. is where the damage really got done; keep a thought fro the folks just east of me. It's bad in places; an old highschool friend was helping people just down the street sand bag their house against the river...no luck... 
Dono, I know you have some big furry plants now, knuckle draggers. Just remember what Fukuoka-sensei said when he was asked about his smaller rice plants, if they were going to be okay?
HG
Dono, I know you have some big furry plants now, knuckle draggers. Just remember what Fukuoka-sensei said when he was asked about his smaller rice plants, if they were going to be okay?
Will I be the first one with maters this year? Not likely, but I won't be too far back. Bet I can get a lettuce crop in in that tomato space before I put them out...I do not try to raise tall fast growing plants with big leaves. Instead I keep the plants as compact as possible. Keep the head small, do not overnourish the plants, and let them grow true to the natural form...
HG
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gixxerific
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The Helpful Gardener
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gixxerific
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Give me a break I'm new to this seed starting thing.The Helpful Gardener wrote:The easy way to make sure that doesn't happen is to not start them so soon...
HG
Plus I was trying to keep up with the Apples. Live and learn next year it won't be so soon nor so many. . I was off work and bored can you blame me though really. To tell you the truth it's actually got me a bit depressed (yeah I got it bad, the green thumb syndrome, that is). I just keep thinking that they are too big and won't produce and I'm gonna be screwed, but I'm sure it will all work out. I hope.
2 more weeks and it's party time.
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The Helpful Gardener
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A big plant won't necessarily make less gixx. My point is that it will not likely make more, which is what a lot of people assume. My neighbor juiced up a Brandywine on chemicals last year so it was eight feet tall, and he did get one huge mater off of it, but only a few others. We ate off my Brandywine for weeks, loads of maters from a four foot plant...
Bigger is not always better...
HG
Bigger is not always better...
HG
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applestar
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TZ, you did say Cherokee Purple is a smaller plant before right? Is there a good source for finding out the average size of different variety tomatoes? DV's description of picking toms from a step ladder is scaring me. (Not that I expect mine to grow to supersize like that -- I'm a casual gardener at best )
BUT! I'm growing way beyond capacity number of tomatoes and other plants this year, and I'm going to have to do some REALLY creative planting.
(Not that I expect mine to grow to supersize like that -- I'm a casual gardener at best )BUT! I'm growing way beyond capacity number of tomatoes and other plants this year, and I'm going to have to do some REALLY creative planting.
I didn't grow any heirlooms last year, but my hybrid Better Boy's and Juliets would have required a step ladder to reach the top. The extra height did allow the new growth to bloom more after the heat induced dormancy period resulting in higher overall production and fresh tomatoes to eat at Christmas. The lower growth didn't produce a tomato in the fall season. I didn't attempt to raise my cages or anything to accommodate the extra growth. I simply laid the longer vines over the older vines letting them grow downhill. It kinda looked like Donald Trumps hair stylist was raising a garden.
Ted
Ted
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gixxerific
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HG I'm not sacred it's too big other than the fact that it might be out of it's prime root growth. I keep seeing that early planting or direct seeding when the plant first starts it's vigorous root growth is the best for a stronger plant. Now I know they will keep grwoing roots obviously. but not the deep tap root but a more lateral fibrous root system. Than again some say that isbetter so what do yo do?
I don't care about big I care about strength.
I don't care about big I care about strength.
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The Helpful Gardener
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I'm with Fukuoka -sensei, who wouldn't even prune his fruit trees because that's not how the tree wants to grow. If we are stunting a tap root, or topping our tomatoes (Fukuoka-sensei recommends just letting tomatoes run along the ground, as they will root where they hit, making more plants), there has to be a reaction; if we are choosing what to do, any results are a man-made reaction. IMO, if I go from a plug tray or a paper cup into the bed before roots circle or stunt, my smaller plants will catch larger plants that have stalled.
I just don't see huge plusses jumping the gun on seed starting other than alleviating itchy gardener syndrome...
HG
I just don't see huge plusses jumping the gun on seed starting other than alleviating itchy gardener syndrome...
HG
If you google the variety you will probably get a hit at Dave's Garden plant files but the height catagories tend to be too broad to help much. Tatianas tomatobase may or may not have specific height information for a given variety depending on who provided the info
Most seed sources list basic catagories such as miniature, dwarf, compact etc. but you have to know what these generally represent in the first place. Determinants stop growing to set fruit so are usually under 5 ft but indeterminants keep growing all season long. Almost all standard indeterminants are in the same size range (similar to Brandywine), a few are a little more enthusiastic. Soil conditions are important. A Hawaiian currant cherry tomato plant growing as a wild volunteer in the vacant lot next door or in a 5 gal bucket here gets 3 ft tall, but in the garden vines get 15-25 ft long.
The best thing to do is just ask on a forum, but be sure to give the length of your growing season because a plant in South Carolina has time to grow an extra 3-4 feet taller than a plant in Ohio. For me, no fruit from flowers above 5 ft has time to ripen before frost so I can trim back plants when they seriously over grow the cages.
Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe are oddballs in that they are short indeterminants and only get about 2/3 as tall as most standards. Another oddball is Earl of Edgecombe, which acts like a genetic dwarf but isn't. It might get 1/2 as tall as other indeterminants. I wasted a perfectly good 5 ft cage on it one year not knowing this, at least Cherokee Purple pretends to get to the top of the cage. Dwarf indeterminant varieties are also tricky. They might be listed as only getting 18 inches tall because you are expected to grow them in containers, but if you put them in the ground your cute windowsill plant ends up a 3.5 ft shrub by the end of the season. At this time there are very few of these, but in the years to come a lot of these will be hitting the specialty seed market.
Most seed sources list basic catagories such as miniature, dwarf, compact etc. but you have to know what these generally represent in the first place. Determinants stop growing to set fruit so are usually under 5 ft but indeterminants keep growing all season long. Almost all standard indeterminants are in the same size range (similar to Brandywine), a few are a little more enthusiastic. Soil conditions are important. A Hawaiian currant cherry tomato plant growing as a wild volunteer in the vacant lot next door or in a 5 gal bucket here gets 3 ft tall, but in the garden vines get 15-25 ft long.
The best thing to do is just ask on a forum, but be sure to give the length of your growing season because a plant in South Carolina has time to grow an extra 3-4 feet taller than a plant in Ohio. For me, no fruit from flowers above 5 ft has time to ripen before frost so I can trim back plants when they seriously over grow the cages.
Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe are oddballs in that they are short indeterminants and only get about 2/3 as tall as most standards. Another oddball is Earl of Edgecombe, which acts like a genetic dwarf but isn't. It might get 1/2 as tall as other indeterminants. I wasted a perfectly good 5 ft cage on it one year not knowing this, at least Cherokee Purple pretends to get to the top of the cage. Dwarf indeterminant varieties are also tricky. They might be listed as only getting 18 inches tall because you are expected to grow them in containers, but if you put them in the ground your cute windowsill plant ends up a 3.5 ft shrub by the end of the season. At this time there are very few of these, but in the years to come a lot of these will be hitting the specialty seed market.
I'm with you Scott. I kept delaying and delaying starting mine. I wasn't really sure when to start them in my zone. I had to put some into the ground today because I probably won't have time to next week and then we will be gone for a few days. The ones I put out were tiny, but they did have a few true leaves. My thought is if a volunteer tomato seed can grow in my garden, and lots of them do; there is not reason a very small transplant can't grow.
Ted
Ted
TZ-OH6,
You mentioned the Hawaiian currant cherry tomato and I'm not familiar with it so I looked it up. It is listed as Solanum lycopersicum var. cerasiforme. In many references, the Sweet 100 is listed as the same cerasiforme variety. Referencing your knowledge, are they the same cherry tomato?
Ted
You mentioned the Hawaiian currant cherry tomato and I'm not familiar with it so I looked it up. It is listed as Solanum lycopersicum var. cerasiforme. In many references, the Sweet 100 is listed as the same cerasiforme variety. Referencing your knowledge, are they the same cherry tomato?
Ted
Currant tomatoes are S. pimpinellifolium. They can interbreed, with S lycopersicum so some cherry varities can be taxonomic hybrids (overly large or overly small varieties are suspect). Hawaiian Currant is one such plant (not 100% currant so listed as a cherry). Matts Wild Cherry is similar. Saras Galapagos cherry is a taxonomic hybrid but I forget what species are involved. Currant tomatoes tend to grow like crazy when given the chance. They also have disease resistances that S lycopersicum lacks, which is why my Hawaiian Currant stayed nearly untouched while everything around it was murdered by late blight last year.
Most of those letters after hybrid names (VFN etc) come from S. pimpinelifolium in the background. You can just imagine how many generations it took to breed back a large tomato after a cross with a tiny currant tomato, all the while trying to preserve the disease resistance trait. Its no wonder flavor was of secondary importance during the process.
Currants and cherrys have a reputations for crossing with big tomatoes, this is because they have an exerted stigma which more easily contacts bees, so they get non-self pollen easily, and they have so many flowers open at any one time that bees naturally have more pollen from them when visiting other plants.
Applestar, find your average first frost date and count back 6-8 weeks. At that time start pinching off unopened bud trusses and the smallest growing tips, and don't let any more get started. Whatever fruits start from the flowering trusses you left behind will be ripe or mature green when frost hits and you and the plant won't have to deal with a load of immature unripe fruit. The imature growth you left behind will grow up a couple of feet as it matures/expands. Rather than let this flop over the top of the cage I fold it back on itself or even tie it together like a topknot over the cage. This method probably wouldn't work far south of here with a much longer growing season because the plants would already be well above the cages, but for me, the plants are just nearing the top of the cages in early August so it works out well. I'm not sure what topping does to flavor etc, but flavor drops off due to late season temps here anyway. If I wanted to spend the money I would probably just make extensions for the cages, but that wouldn't work for height challenged gardeners.
Most of those letters after hybrid names (VFN etc) come from S. pimpinelifolium in the background. You can just imagine how many generations it took to breed back a large tomato after a cross with a tiny currant tomato, all the while trying to preserve the disease resistance trait. Its no wonder flavor was of secondary importance during the process.
Currants and cherrys have a reputations for crossing with big tomatoes, this is because they have an exerted stigma which more easily contacts bees, so they get non-self pollen easily, and they have so many flowers open at any one time that bees naturally have more pollen from them when visiting other plants.
Applestar, find your average first frost date and count back 6-8 weeks. At that time start pinching off unopened bud trusses and the smallest growing tips, and don't let any more get started. Whatever fruits start from the flowering trusses you left behind will be ripe or mature green when frost hits and you and the plant won't have to deal with a load of immature unripe fruit. The imature growth you left behind will grow up a couple of feet as it matures/expands. Rather than let this flop over the top of the cage I fold it back on itself or even tie it together like a topknot over the cage. This method probably wouldn't work far south of here with a much longer growing season because the plants would already be well above the cages, but for me, the plants are just nearing the top of the cages in early August so it works out well. I'm not sure what topping does to flavor etc, but flavor drops off due to late season temps here anyway. If I wanted to spend the money I would probably just make extensions for the cages, but that wouldn't work for height challenged gardeners.
" but that wouldn't work for height challenged gardeners."
Thats why they make step ladders.
I'm 6'3" tall with long arms. I still can't reach some tomatoes without a ladder.
I guess I am lucky to live where the late growth on my plants is productive and useful. I actually enjoy the later production of my hybrids more than the early production. While significantly smaller, the late season tomatoes have a very different appearance with pointed ends and stripes than the early season tomatoes. Most importantly, the flavor in the late season tomatoes is much more intense to the point that I eagerly await their arrival and ripening. Never having grown heirloom tomatoes, I will be curious to see if they react in the same way to the seasonal climatic changes as the hybrids.
Ted
Thats why they make step ladders.
I'm 6'3" tall with long arms. I still can't reach some tomatoes without a ladder.I guess I am lucky to live where the late growth on my plants is productive and useful. I actually enjoy the later production of my hybrids more than the early production. While significantly smaller, the late season tomatoes have a very different appearance with pointed ends and stripes than the early season tomatoes. Most importantly, the flavor in the late season tomatoes is much more intense to the point that I eagerly await their arrival and ripening. Never having grown heirloom tomatoes, I will be curious to see if they react in the same way to the seasonal climatic changes as the hybrids.
Ted
Got to love TZ's responses, walking encyclopedia on tomatoes - always enjoy thorough responses, and learn something new every time!
Stepladder - I think its' kinda fun, at least when it comes to gathering the fruit late in the season (extra work otherwise supporting those guys). Conduit poles have become my best friends!
Regards,
D
Stepladder - I think its' kinda fun, at least when it comes to gathering the fruit late in the season (extra work otherwise supporting those guys). Conduit poles have become my best friends!
Regards,
D
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The Helpful Gardener
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Gotta agree about TZ's posting; this is the strength of THG and what we always envisioned. Smart, savvy gardeners helping out newbies, who become smart savvy gardeners who help newbies. Thanks for being part of that, TZ.
BOT, I think the principle of horticulture that bears directly on transplanting would be soil interfaces. Roots can be reluctant to move from one soil to another; it is a new biology and generally not one it has grown up with (which is why I don't like sterilized soils but live ones, and always pot with compost), nor one in which it has had any say in developing (plants select biologies by tailoring root exudates). This was brought to my attention in my arborists course, as the planting of trees now no longer recommends soil ammendment, and I have come to value that advice in most of my plantings, with exception of compost, which I think of more as innoculant than amendment.
If I step up several times I have created several interfaces, each slowing the advance of roots, but at the same time causing ramification developing a denser root mass. While I can see the obvious values in that denser root mass, I can just as easily value roots that have gone further, which I believe I will get with from a fresh start rather than a repeated transplant... IMO... this would be especially true in polycutural gardens, where many plants grow in contact, and first in gets first crack at choosing soil biology...
HG
BOT, I think the principle of horticulture that bears directly on transplanting would be soil interfaces. Roots can be reluctant to move from one soil to another; it is a new biology and generally not one it has grown up with (which is why I don't like sterilized soils but live ones, and always pot with compost), nor one in which it has had any say in developing (plants select biologies by tailoring root exudates). This was brought to my attention in my arborists course, as the planting of trees now no longer recommends soil ammendment, and I have come to value that advice in most of my plantings, with exception of compost, which I think of more as innoculant than amendment.
If I step up several times I have created several interfaces, each slowing the advance of roots, but at the same time causing ramification developing a denser root mass. While I can see the obvious values in that denser root mass, I can just as easily value roots that have gone further, which I believe I will get with from a fresh start rather than a repeated transplant... IMO... this would be especially true in polycutural gardens, where many plants grow in contact, and first in gets first crack at choosing soil biology...
HG