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applestar
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TZ, you did say Cherokee Purple is a smaller plant before right? Is there a good source for finding out the average size of different variety tomatoes? DV's description of picking toms from a step ladder is scaring me. 
(Not that I expect mine to grow to supersize like that -- I'm a casual gardener at best 
)
BUT! I'm growing way beyond capacity number of tomatoes and other plants this year, and I'm going to have to do some REALLY creative planting.
(Not that I expect mine to grow to supersize like that -- I'm a casual gardener at best )BUT! I'm growing way beyond capacity number of tomatoes and other plants this year, and I'm going to have to do some REALLY creative planting.
I didn't grow any heirlooms last year, but my hybrid Better Boy's and Juliets would have required a step ladder to reach the top. The extra height did allow the new growth to bloom more after the heat induced dormancy period resulting in higher overall production and fresh tomatoes to eat at Christmas. The lower growth didn't produce a tomato in the fall season. I didn't attempt to raise my cages or anything to accommodate the extra growth. I simply laid the longer vines over the older vines letting them grow downhill. It kinda looked like Donald Trumps hair stylist was raising a garden.
Ted
Ted
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gixxerific
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HG I'm not sacred it's too big other than the fact that it might be out of it's prime root growth. I keep seeing that early planting or direct seeding when the plant first starts it's vigorous root growth is the best for a stronger plant. Now I know they will keep grwoing roots obviously. but not the deep tap root but a more lateral fibrous root system. Than again some say that isbetter so what do yo do?
I don't care about big I care about strength.
I don't care about big I care about strength.
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The Helpful Gardener
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I'm with Fukuoka -sensei, who wouldn't even prune his fruit trees because that's not how the tree wants to grow. If we are stunting a tap root, or topping our tomatoes (Fukuoka-sensei recommends just letting tomatoes run along the ground, as they will root where they hit, making more plants), there has to be a reaction; if we are choosing what to do, any results are a man-made reaction. IMO, if I go from a plug tray or a paper cup into the bed before roots circle or stunt, my smaller plants will catch larger plants that have stalled.
I just don't see huge plusses jumping the gun on seed starting other than alleviating itchy gardener syndrome...
HG
I just don't see huge plusses jumping the gun on seed starting other than alleviating itchy gardener syndrome...
HG
If you google the variety you will probably get a hit at Dave's Garden plant files but the height catagories tend to be too broad to help much. Tatianas tomatobase may or may not have specific height information for a given variety depending on who provided the info
Most seed sources list basic catagories such as miniature, dwarf, compact etc. but you have to know what these generally represent in the first place. Determinants stop growing to set fruit so are usually under 5 ft but indeterminants keep growing all season long. Almost all standard indeterminants are in the same size range (similar to Brandywine), a few are a little more enthusiastic. Soil conditions are important. A Hawaiian currant cherry tomato plant growing as a wild volunteer in the vacant lot next door or in a 5 gal bucket here gets 3 ft tall, but in the garden vines get 15-25 ft long.
The best thing to do is just ask on a forum, but be sure to give the length of your growing season because a plant in South Carolina has time to grow an extra 3-4 feet taller than a plant in Ohio. For me, no fruit from flowers above 5 ft has time to ripen before frost so I can trim back plants when they seriously over grow the cages.
Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe are oddballs in that they are short indeterminants and only get about 2/3 as tall as most standards. Another oddball is Earl of Edgecombe, which acts like a genetic dwarf but isn't. It might get 1/2 as tall as other indeterminants. I wasted a perfectly good 5 ft cage on it one year not knowing this, at least Cherokee Purple pretends to get to the top of the cage. Dwarf indeterminant varieties are also tricky. They might be listed as only getting 18 inches tall because you are expected to grow them in containers, but if you put them in the ground your cute windowsill plant ends up a 3.5 ft shrub by the end of the season. At this time there are very few of these, but in the years to come a lot of these will be hitting the specialty seed market.
Most seed sources list basic catagories such as miniature, dwarf, compact etc. but you have to know what these generally represent in the first place. Determinants stop growing to set fruit so are usually under 5 ft but indeterminants keep growing all season long. Almost all standard indeterminants are in the same size range (similar to Brandywine), a few are a little more enthusiastic. Soil conditions are important. A Hawaiian currant cherry tomato plant growing as a wild volunteer in the vacant lot next door or in a 5 gal bucket here gets 3 ft tall, but in the garden vines get 15-25 ft long.
The best thing to do is just ask on a forum, but be sure to give the length of your growing season because a plant in South Carolina has time to grow an extra 3-4 feet taller than a plant in Ohio. For me, no fruit from flowers above 5 ft has time to ripen before frost so I can trim back plants when they seriously over grow the cages.
Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe are oddballs in that they are short indeterminants and only get about 2/3 as tall as most standards. Another oddball is Earl of Edgecombe, which acts like a genetic dwarf but isn't. It might get 1/2 as tall as other indeterminants. I wasted a perfectly good 5 ft cage on it one year not knowing this, at least Cherokee Purple pretends to get to the top of the cage. Dwarf indeterminant varieties are also tricky. They might be listed as only getting 18 inches tall because you are expected to grow them in containers, but if you put them in the ground your cute windowsill plant ends up a 3.5 ft shrub by the end of the season. At this time there are very few of these, but in the years to come a lot of these will be hitting the specialty seed market.
I'm with you Scott. I kept delaying and delaying starting mine. I wasn't really sure when to start them in my zone. I had to put some into the ground today because I probably won't have time to next week and then we will be gone for a few days. The ones I put out were tiny, but they did have a few true leaves. My thought is if a volunteer tomato seed can grow in my garden, and lots of them do; there is not reason a very small transplant can't grow.
Ted
Ted
TZ-OH6,
You mentioned the Hawaiian currant cherry tomato and I'm not familiar with it so I looked it up. It is listed as Solanum lycopersicum var. cerasiforme. In many references, the Sweet 100 is listed as the same cerasiforme variety. Referencing your knowledge, are they the same cherry tomato?
Ted
You mentioned the Hawaiian currant cherry tomato and I'm not familiar with it so I looked it up. It is listed as Solanum lycopersicum var. cerasiforme. In many references, the Sweet 100 is listed as the same cerasiforme variety. Referencing your knowledge, are they the same cherry tomato?
Ted
Currant tomatoes are S. pimpinellifolium. They can interbreed, with S lycopersicum so some cherry varities can be taxonomic hybrids (overly large or overly small varieties are suspect). Hawaiian Currant is one such plant (not 100% currant so listed as a cherry). Matts Wild Cherry is similar. Saras Galapagos cherry is a taxonomic hybrid but I forget what species are involved. Currant tomatoes tend to grow like crazy when given the chance. They also have disease resistances that S lycopersicum lacks, which is why my Hawaiian Currant stayed nearly untouched while everything around it was murdered by late blight last year.
Most of those letters after hybrid names (VFN etc) come from S. pimpinelifolium in the background. You can just imagine how many generations it took to breed back a large tomato after a cross with a tiny currant tomato, all the while trying to preserve the disease resistance trait. Its no wonder flavor was of secondary importance during the process.
Currants and cherrys have a reputations for crossing with big tomatoes, this is because they have an exerted stigma which more easily contacts bees, so they get non-self pollen easily, and they have so many flowers open at any one time that bees naturally have more pollen from them when visiting other plants.
Applestar, find your average first frost date and count back 6-8 weeks. At that time start pinching off unopened bud trusses and the smallest growing tips, and don't let any more get started. Whatever fruits start from the flowering trusses you left behind will be ripe or mature green when frost hits and you and the plant won't have to deal with a load of immature unripe fruit. The imature growth you left behind will grow up a couple of feet as it matures/expands. Rather than let this flop over the top of the cage I fold it back on itself or even tie it together like a topknot over the cage. This method probably wouldn't work far south of here with a much longer growing season because the plants would already be well above the cages, but for me, the plants are just nearing the top of the cages in early August so it works out well. I'm not sure what topping does to flavor etc, but flavor drops off due to late season temps here anyway. If I wanted to spend the money I would probably just make extensions for the cages, but that wouldn't work for height challenged gardeners.
Most of those letters after hybrid names (VFN etc) come from S. pimpinelifolium in the background. You can just imagine how many generations it took to breed back a large tomato after a cross with a tiny currant tomato, all the while trying to preserve the disease resistance trait. Its no wonder flavor was of secondary importance during the process.
Currants and cherrys have a reputations for crossing with big tomatoes, this is because they have an exerted stigma which more easily contacts bees, so they get non-self pollen easily, and they have so many flowers open at any one time that bees naturally have more pollen from them when visiting other plants.
Applestar, find your average first frost date and count back 6-8 weeks. At that time start pinching off unopened bud trusses and the smallest growing tips, and don't let any more get started. Whatever fruits start from the flowering trusses you left behind will be ripe or mature green when frost hits and you and the plant won't have to deal with a load of immature unripe fruit. The imature growth you left behind will grow up a couple of feet as it matures/expands. Rather than let this flop over the top of the cage I fold it back on itself or even tie it together like a topknot over the cage. This method probably wouldn't work far south of here with a much longer growing season because the plants would already be well above the cages, but for me, the plants are just nearing the top of the cages in early August so it works out well. I'm not sure what topping does to flavor etc, but flavor drops off due to late season temps here anyway. If I wanted to spend the money I would probably just make extensions for the cages, but that wouldn't work for height challenged gardeners.
" but that wouldn't work for height challenged gardeners."
Thats why they make step ladders.
I'm 6'3" tall with long arms. I still can't reach some tomatoes without a ladder.
I guess I am lucky to live where the late growth on my plants is productive and useful. I actually enjoy the later production of my hybrids more than the early production. While significantly smaller, the late season tomatoes have a very different appearance with pointed ends and stripes than the early season tomatoes. Most importantly, the flavor in the late season tomatoes is much more intense to the point that I eagerly await their arrival and ripening. Never having grown heirloom tomatoes, I will be curious to see if they react in the same way to the seasonal climatic changes as the hybrids.
Ted
Thats why they make step ladders.
I'm 6'3" tall with long arms. I still can't reach some tomatoes without a ladder.I guess I am lucky to live where the late growth on my plants is productive and useful. I actually enjoy the later production of my hybrids more than the early production. While significantly smaller, the late season tomatoes have a very different appearance with pointed ends and stripes than the early season tomatoes. Most importantly, the flavor in the late season tomatoes is much more intense to the point that I eagerly await their arrival and ripening. Never having grown heirloom tomatoes, I will be curious to see if they react in the same way to the seasonal climatic changes as the hybrids.
Ted
Got to love TZ's responses, walking encyclopedia on tomatoes - always enjoy thorough responses, and learn something new every time!
Stepladder - I think its' kinda fun, at least when it comes to gathering the fruit late in the season (extra work otherwise supporting those guys). Conduit poles have become my best friends!
Regards,
D
Stepladder - I think its' kinda fun, at least when it comes to gathering the fruit late in the season (extra work otherwise supporting those guys). Conduit poles have become my best friends!
Regards,
D
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The Helpful Gardener
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Gotta agree about TZ's posting; this is the strength of THG and what we always envisioned. Smart, savvy gardeners helping out newbies, who become smart savvy gardeners who help newbies. Thanks for being part of that, TZ.
BOT, I think the principle of horticulture that bears directly on transplanting would be soil interfaces. Roots can be reluctant to move from one soil to another; it is a new biology and generally not one it has grown up with (which is why I don't like sterilized soils but live ones, and always pot with compost), nor one in which it has had any say in developing (plants select biologies by tailoring root exudates). This was brought to my attention in my arborists course, as the planting of trees now no longer recommends soil ammendment, and I have come to value that advice in most of my plantings, with exception of compost, which I think of more as innoculant than amendment.
If I step up several times I have created several interfaces, each slowing the advance of roots, but at the same time causing ramification developing a denser root mass. While I can see the obvious values in that denser root mass, I can just as easily value roots that have gone further, which I believe I will get with from a fresh start rather than a repeated transplant... IMO... this would be especially true in polycutural gardens, where many plants grow in contact, and first in gets first crack at choosing soil biology...
HG
BOT, I think the principle of horticulture that bears directly on transplanting would be soil interfaces. Roots can be reluctant to move from one soil to another; it is a new biology and generally not one it has grown up with (which is why I don't like sterilized soils but live ones, and always pot with compost), nor one in which it has had any say in developing (plants select biologies by tailoring root exudates). This was brought to my attention in my arborists course, as the planting of trees now no longer recommends soil ammendment, and I have come to value that advice in most of my plantings, with exception of compost, which I think of more as innoculant than amendment.
If I step up several times I have created several interfaces, each slowing the advance of roots, but at the same time causing ramification developing a denser root mass. While I can see the obvious values in that denser root mass, I can just as easily value roots that have gone further, which I believe I will get with from a fresh start rather than a repeated transplant... IMO... this would be especially true in polycutural gardens, where many plants grow in contact, and first in gets first crack at choosing soil biology...
HG