Planting tomato plants deep: does it work?

[rainbowgardener]

[quote="garden5"]Thanks TZ, and MysticGardener67 for the great information on bottom watering. TZ, I believe you said that it is time to water when the soil starts to pull away from the sides of the pot and the top is extremely dry to the touch. I know that the answer to this next question probably varies, but how often do you do your bottom watering routine?

Apparently I was just publishing mine while you were writing yours. Everyone has their own ways of doing things. Personally when dealing with baby seedlings, I would not wait until soil is pulling away from the sides. That works for established plants, but the tiny babies are very sensitive. They do want to stay damp (but not wet) all the time. As noted above, I generally add a very small amount of water every morning, as long as they are soaking it up thoroughly and no water is remaining in the tray.

[garden5]

rainbowgardener, that is exactly what happened. After I made the post and saw that it went through, I logged off without actually checking the thread.

Amazingly, you answered my question before I had even published it!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would want to keep the plants under the grow lights until probably a week or so before I plant them outside, wouldn't I?

On the subject of the growing medium used, could I use some of my compost instead of potting soil? The compost is young and mostly dirt, but it does have some organic matter in it. I have heard about people starting their seeds in compost with very good results and I'd like to give it a try.

That is why I asked about the drawing properties of soil. Since my compost is mostly dirt, do you think it will still draw if bottom watered? If I use it for my seedlings, I will screen it, somehow, to eliminate the rocks and twigs. This will also make it finer which, I think, will be better for the seedling's roots. What do you think.

Lastly, since I seem to have taken this thread way off-topic, should I start a new one for my seed-starting questions, or would you rather I not clutter-up the forum and, in the future, simply think before I post to make sure I stay with the thread topic.

Thanks for your help and sorry for going off-topic.

[The Helpful Gardener]

G5, check out the Compost Tea thread to get a LOT more really good advice (I am happy to say we even have some nationally ranked folks weighing in there now). Just know it is supplementing the natural nitrogen cycle, and Nature does a pretty good job of starting seeds, growing them, and disposing of the remains safely and with an eye to repeating the process again and again. Can't get that in a bottle...

HG

[applestar]

My typing fingers are lazy today so here are some links for ya!
Threads where I discussed using compost in seed starting mix:
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 3285#63285
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 2215#62215
(Re: soil blocks -- Despite my raves, I stopped making/using them when I realized that you need at least twice as much volume in soil mix because you need to pack them in to hold the soil block shape and I just couldn't keep up with mixing up batch after batch. I switched to newspaper pots.)

My last year's thread on a no-window, unheated garage Grow Light Area:
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 0193#60193

Overall, I prefer individual pots of some kind rather than trays because it's easier to arrange/adjust by height so that the tops are even under the lights.

[garden5]

Thanks for the great resources, HG and Applestar. They will occupy me for a while.

Applestar, I really look forward to reading about your starting seeds in and unheated garage.

HG, thanks for the compost tea thread. I was about to do a forum search for it, but you saved me the trouble.

Oh, and by the way; Applestar, is that a German red strawberry tomato as your avatar. I seem to remember you saying what it was last fall, but I can't recall the variety.

Thanks, again, everyone.

[applestar]

You are very welcome, garden5. Looking forward to hearing about your progress, too.

My avatar is a Pricipe Borghese -- Italian, I believe. A sun-drying variety, though it also makes good sauce. Very productive, and a good keeper (had the last of the picked-green-turned-red-indoors ones just last week ... and I STILL have the dehydrated ones, frozen ones, and sauced-and-canned ones ).
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 9200#89200

[garden5]

Applestar, I read your threads, really good material, especially the threads about the compost seed starting mix and the garage starting area.

I have a question regarding the seedlings positions under the grow lights. Do the plants have to be directly under the lights, or can they be slightly off to the side?

Say I have a 1020 tray, can I have the tray perpendicularly located under the light, so it looks like a + sign, or do the trays have to be run lengthwise under the lights, so that the long sides of the trays are parallel under the long ends of the lights?

The first way would allow me to have more trays per light, but the end plants might be somewhat far out from the lights. If I go with the second way, I will only be able to get half as many trays under the lights, but the edge seedlings will be closer to the lights.


I'm sorry if this is confusing. Basically, should the trays be arranged side-by side or end-to-end under a single row of shoplights?

Thanks for the opinions.

[applestar]

Having very quickly used up all available space directly under the lights (despite my mantra) , I draped long aluminum foil sheets over the light hood (and over the seedlings that stuck too far out) and the reflective sun-shield and the mirror on the wall for the sides, AND recycled aluminum or white plastic take-out trays as bottom trays and lined the table and the height adjusting cardboard boxes with aluminum foil for the bottom. That Grow Light Area was SO covered up that not much light ESCAPED to illuminate the garage

Also, I think the trick is to keep shuffling them around. Not so easy with a full-size tray (again, I prefer individual pots or small community pots/trays) but maybe keep a section for a tray to be FULLY under the lights and rotate in. Remember, too, that the center of the tubes is brighter than the ends.

[garden5]

Having very quickly used up all available space directly under the lights (despite my mantra) , I draped long aluminum foil sheets over the light hood (and over the seedlings that stuck too far out) and the reflective sun-shield and the mirror on the wall for the sides, AND recycled aluminum or white plastic take-out trays as bottom trays and lined the table and the height adjusting cardboard boxes with aluminum foil for the bottom. That Grow Light Area was SO covered up that not much light ESCAPED to illuminate the garage

Also, I think the trick is to keep shuffling them around. Not so easy with a full-size tray (again, I prefer individual pots or small community pots/trays) but maybe keep a section for a tray to be FULLY under the lights and rotate in. Remember, too, that the center of the tubes is brighter than the ends.

Thanks for tip about the middle of the tubes being brighter than the ends.

I looked at some t8 lights and light bulbs, they were really inexpensive.

I think you have it right with the plant positioning: rotate to keep it balanced. Makes perfect sense.

Are there some plants that need grow lights more than others?

Thanks for all your advice. I've learned way more about grow lights than I anticipated.

[gardenvt]

I don't usually let my seedlings get so dried out that the potting mix pulls away from the sides. Experience will help you gauge when and how often to water which is dependent on the size of the container, the heat, lighting and size of the plant. I bottom water using a tray that has a small amount of fertilizer once the seedling have several sets of leaves. I use PHC seedling fertilizer and the seedlings do very well. Once transplanted to larger containers, I dilute the fertilizer I will give them during the season.

As for lights and places to grow your plants, it really is about your budget and the space available. I have an unheated room (next to a heated room) and it stays around 65 degrees. I have one set up that I bought heavily clearanced ( 2 shelves with 24" space from lights to shelf) and then made my own adjustable 5 - shelf setup from metal shelving purchased (on sale) at HD. I use 32 watt T-8 6500K (daylight) bulbs in 2-shop lights for each shelf and buy those at HD or Lowe's. My shelves are all 4 foot by 18 inches so I can accomodate a lot of seedlings/plants.

As to positioning the lights, they should be no more than 2-4 inches above the plants. I usually use the 2" distance and adjust the plants according to height- meaning that when one variety gets much taller, I stack blocks of wood under the shorter ones so that they are all about equal distance from the light. I also have the lights on a timer and run them for 16 hours from 6 am-10 pm. Plants need those 8 hours of darkness to make use of the light and nutrients they took in during the day.

I use the lights until they go out to my small unheated green house in late April/early May. Just a few weeks of that sun and heat performs wonders and helps in the process of hardening the plants.

It isn't at all complicated to grow seedlings. It's caring for them and keeping them healthy until planting out. When we try a new type of plant, it might test us just a bit. (The onion family is new to me this year and I've been looking/asking for good info on starting from seed, when to up pot and when to put them in the ground. It all sounds so complicated but I expect it will be just fine.)

I think it is great that you are asking so many questions because, in the end, it will help you become more successful with your gardening. When I think of the first 3 tomato plants I grew and felt so proud of, I am reminded what it feels like to new to veggie gardening.

[wordwiz]

For those of you whose space and lighting is at a premium, take a look at Oasis Horticubes. 104 cells fit in a standard 1020 tray and they will support plants that get 10-12" tall. I can grow more than 1750 plants in 32 sq. ft. The negs: they are more expensive than nursery flats but not much after considering potting mix, needing fewer trays, etc., and they need watered daily. I keep mine in water - that doesn't hurt them.

Mike

[TZ -OH6]

A good way to learn about watering is to observe critical conditions (let some plants wilt under observation [rather than neglect]). Check them twice a day (lift up the pots to feel the weight) until some start to wilt. If you are worried about wasting seeds save some junk seeds from a grocerystore tomato and plant them the way you plan on planting your good seeds. Let them go for several days to see how fast the soil dries, and how long it takes before they start to wilt. Learn to water in that relatively long period (few days) between "these pots are heavy with moisture", and "these plants are wilted".

My main point on watering is that when growing under fluorescent lights you don't have to be so scared of keeping the plants/potting mix noticably moist/wet. That can lead to overwatering problems like damping off. Roots are really good at pulling water out of soil particles, and the less water they have the more the roots are encouraged to grow ...to a certain dryness point.


It is a lot safer to start plants under flourescent lights than with window light because you never know day to day how hot the plants/pots will get and they can get cooked and over dried when you are not looking...I just did that to some houseplants when the outside temp was less than 20F. They would be goners as seedlings. I have cooked some germinating peppers in that window in previous years thinking that it was a good way to keep them warmer.

We have warm springs here with intermittant frosts so I usually begin moving my seeding outside starting a few days after they are potted up (true leaf stage) so that I can use the space under the lights for starting more seeds. On warm days (highs in the 60s) the flats go along the east side of the house... protected from wind, and can get a half day of sun. They only go out into the open yard full sun if I'm there to move them to safety because we have variables winds that increase at certain times of the day and either beat up the plnats or pull water out of the pots, quickly wilting them.

On cold/rainy days (and at night) the plants go inside on the floor under the dining room table etc in fairly low light. Its not the best way, but even with 2-3 days in near darkeness they still do OK.

I blame a lot of the anxiety about sprouts/seedlings to those mini green house covers they sell with peat pellets... They make it seem like the sprouts are much more delicate than they really are. I totally understand though as I am a reformed ovewaterer/plant babyer.

[rainbowgardener]

Indeed, way more little seedlings have been killed with too much water/ humidity than too little. I learned the hard way to be very sparing of water for them. Only bottom water and only a little.

[Bobberman]

I have heard of people stripping off all the leaves except for the top two on their plants and planting the plant all the way up to these top leaves. Supposedly, this gives a deeper, stronger, root system.

Has anyone ever tried this, what were your results? Did you get fruit sooner because the plant got more nutrients, or did you get fruit later because the plant had to make up so much growth?

This is something I might try this year. Thanks for any reports.

+++Deeper planting seems to work better when the ground is warmer. If its done too early the plant will be slower! I prefermaking the hole deeper with a pipe but only planting the roots down 6 inches with the hole elow going down much deeper so when the plant is ready it can extend its roots without having to push through hard soil! I have heard of plants from sothern states being sent out with only the top leaves and a foot of stem. I would usually lay the stem down parellel to the surface 3 inches deep. but since I started making the hole below the tomatoes deeper I had better over all results!

[The Helpful Gardener]

I actually plant maters with a post hole digger; no foolin...

I do strip them down to just a few leaves, and plant a 16" tall seedling with about four inches or so exposed (Two sets of leaves).

I have found this to give me deep strong root systems that even out the sometimes spotty watering my maters get (life of a salesman). It serves them well in hot droughty weather (last year was a great example). And my maters are usually taller than most in the neighborhood, so I lose nothing there.

In short, I wouldn't do it any other way...

HG