I'm not talking about tomatos bought at the store, just the ones grown from transplants or seed. The common word is that heirlooms do, in fact, taste better. Has this been your experience?
Thanks for your participation in this poll.
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worldharmony
- Full Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:25 pm
- Location: NE Ohio
It depends on your own preferences and on the hybrids. I think that the tomatoes that were bred for distance shipping- the ones with the thick skins and lack of flavor- are horrible. Heirloom tomatoes have not been bio-engineered to withstand rough handling and shipping, so their skins tend to be thinner and their flesh more tender. These are the kind I like.
It may be that some hybrid types are juicy and tasty. Still, I prefer heirlooms on principle. The type that don't ship well have to be sold locally in order to produce a profit, so when I go to the farmer's markets I try to buy only the heirlooms in the hope that sales will encourage them to keep growing them. (I have also proclaimed that I will grow only heirlooms in my beds next year!).
It may be that some hybrid types are juicy and tasty. Still, I prefer heirlooms on principle. The type that don't ship well have to be sold locally in order to produce a profit, so when I go to the farmer's markets I try to buy only the heirlooms in the hope that sales will encourage them to keep growing them. (I have also proclaimed that I will grow only heirlooms in my beds next year!).
Its a difficult yes/no question, like asking if blended scotch is better than single malt.
Is the very best tasting tomato an heirloom or a hybrid? Sungold, a hybrid, is usually at or near the top spot in taste tests (but do fruity sweet cherry tomatoes count as real tomatoes?)
Will the 20 best tasting hybrids be better on average than the 20 best tasting heirlooms? No, and you would probably be hard pressed to find ten hybrids that could compete with the very best heirlooms. A few could hold their own with the best [e.g. Momotaro, and Bucks County]. Bucks County [= a hybrid version of Red Brandywine] is one of the new hybrids which are copies of heirlooms for sale to people who are scared to grow heirlooms. So, does a hybrid exact copy of an heirloom count?. Some, like BrandyBoy, a couple of the BHN hybrids, and some others fit right in with 'very good' heirloom varieties like Mortgage Lifter but probably wouldn't make it to the 'Excellent' level.
There are many terrible heirloom varieties out there, not surprising when there are thousands of varieties to choose from, many of which were developed simply to survive in certain climates. There is also the problem of variety. You probably will not find a hybrid that tastes like Green Zebra, or Limmony, so the competition has to be for red/pink tomatoey tasting varieties.
The bottom line is that most hybrids were developed from heirloom parents for factors other than flavor, mainly shape, color, transportability = thick skin and firmness, shelf life. The best tasting heirlooms did not have these traits, so it is a real testiment to hybridizers that they have been able to create Sungold and Momotaro (both were developed in Japan by the way).
Is the very best tasting tomato an heirloom or a hybrid? Sungold, a hybrid, is usually at or near the top spot in taste tests (but do fruity sweet cherry tomatoes count as real tomatoes?)
Will the 20 best tasting hybrids be better on average than the 20 best tasting heirlooms? No, and you would probably be hard pressed to find ten hybrids that could compete with the very best heirlooms. A few could hold their own with the best [e.g. Momotaro, and Bucks County]. Bucks County [= a hybrid version of Red Brandywine] is one of the new hybrids which are copies of heirlooms for sale to people who are scared to grow heirlooms. So, does a hybrid exact copy of an heirloom count?. Some, like BrandyBoy, a couple of the BHN hybrids, and some others fit right in with 'very good' heirloom varieties like Mortgage Lifter but probably wouldn't make it to the 'Excellent' level.
There are many terrible heirloom varieties out there, not surprising when there are thousands of varieties to choose from, many of which were developed simply to survive in certain climates. There is also the problem of variety. You probably will not find a hybrid that tastes like Green Zebra, or Limmony, so the competition has to be for red/pink tomatoey tasting varieties.
The bottom line is that most hybrids were developed from heirloom parents for factors other than flavor, mainly shape, color, transportability = thick skin and firmness, shelf life. The best tasting heirlooms did not have these traits, so it is a real testiment to hybridizers that they have been able to create Sungold and Momotaro (both were developed in Japan by the way).
worldharmony wrote:It depends on your own preferences and on the hybrids. I think that the tomatoes that were bred for distance shipping- the ones with the thick skins and lack of flavor- are horrible. Heirloom tomatoes have not been bio-engineered to withstand rough handling and shipping, so their skins tend to be thinner and their flesh more tender. These are the kind I like.
It may be that some hybrid types are juicy and tasty. Still, I prefer heirlooms on principle. The type that don't ship well have to be sold locally in order to produce a profit, so when I go to the farmer's markets I try to buy only the heirlooms in the hope that sales will encourage them to keep growing them. (I have also proclaimed that I will grow only heirlooms in my beds next year!).
Wow, those are some really good points.
It is interesting that some people may thank of any tomato called a hybrid is something that is genetically engineered in a lab when, as you pointed out, they are actually the offspring of heirlooms. Although, taste seems to suffer in many breeding situations.
I can also see your point on variety abundance/characteristics. Although there are many varieties, each with their own unique set of qualities, for both hybrids and heirlooms, consider hybrids in general as a group and heirlooms in general as a group for the purpose of this question.
After I posted this thread, I realized that there is a tomato plant sub-forum on this site, do you think I could post this question there without getting in too much trouble for double posting?
Thanks.
Any tomato that is raised from seed, cared for by a loving gardener and given lots of sunshine, water, treatments, etc and picked at the peak of ripeness will naturally taste better than a store bought tomato that is picked green, gassed, and shipped hundreds of miles. These two tomatoes could be the exact same strain of hybrid and still the small gardener's tomato will taste better. I think it's the love, personally.garden5 wrote:I'm not talking about tomatos bought at the store, just the ones grown from transplants or seed. The common word is that heirlooms do, in fact, taste better. Has this been your experience?
Thanks for your participation in this poll.
The only way to find the "best" tasting tomato is to grow many different varieties that interest you and critique each tomato as it comes out of the garden. There are lots of resources to narrow down the seed choices. And taste is a subjective thing, in addition tomatoes grown in different regions of the country might taste different even if they are the same variety.
Last year I grew 2 kinds: one open-pollinated and one hybrid. I didn't particularly like either of them! This year I'm growing 8 kinds and am certainly enjoying the experience! I'm narrowing down my picks for next year based on health of the plant, yield, taste of course, and tomatoes that are good for multiple uses. So far, only 2 have made the cut.
No, don't double post. Ask (private message) a moderator to move this topic to the tomato section.garden5 wrote: After I posted this thread, I realized that there is a tomato plant sub-forum on this site, do you think I could post this question there without getting in too much trouble for double posting?
Thanks.
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rainbowgardener
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 25279
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
- Location: TN/GA 7b
I saw the comments and moved this thread to the Tomato Forum
I've never grown heirlooms and though I keep thinking about it, I'm a little scared of them re lack of disease resistance. This year with so much rain, I'm having a hard enough time keeping my hybrid ones going.
The hybrid ones (Early Girl and Beefsteak) are already so much better than store bought, I don't feel deprived...
I've never grown heirlooms and though I keep thinking about it, I'm a little scared of them re lack of disease resistance. This year with so much rain, I'm having a hard enough time keeping my hybrid ones going.
The hybrid ones (Early Girl and Beefsteak) are already so much better than store bought, I don't feel deprived...
8 kinds of tomatos....that's pretty impressive! One tip I can offer, though, is that you keep your different heirloom varieties a fair distance from each other so as to prevent cross-pollination. I'm not sure if cross-pollination will affect the fruit, but it will definitely affect the seed from that fruit if you are planning on carrying seed over from this year to next. If anyone has any info on whether or not cross-pollination affects the fruit from the cross pollinated plant, or just the seed inside it, I would be glad to know (perhaps this would make a good topic for a new post).petalfuzz wrote:Any tomato that is raised from seed, cared for by a loving gardener and given lots of sunshine, water, treatments, etc and picked at the peak of ripeness will naturally taste better than a store bought tomato that is picked green, gassed, and shipped hundreds of miles. These two tomatoes could be the exact same strain of hybrid and still the small gardener's tomato will taste better. I think it's the love, personally.garden5 wrote:I'm not talking about tomatos bought at the store, just the ones grown from transplants or seed. The common word is that heirlooms do, in fact, taste better. Has this been your experience?
Thanks for your participation in this poll.
The only way to find the "best" tasting tomato is to grow many different varieties that interest you and critique each tomato as it comes out of the garden. There are lots of resources to narrow down the seed choices. And taste is a subjective thing, in addition tomatoes grown in different regions of the country might taste different even if they are the same variety.
Last year I grew 2 kinds: one open-pollinated and one hybrid. I didn't particularly like either of them! This year I'm growing 8 kinds and am certainly enjoying the experience! I'm narrowing down my picks for next year based on health of the plant, yield, taste of course, and tomatoes that are good for multiple uses. So far, only 2 have made the cut.
As for your theory, Petalfuzz, that any garden-grown tomato will beat the same variety store-bought any day, I wholeheartedly agree!
I'm not saving seed this year, so all my plants are in 2 beds, each with about 4 square feet around the plant. But if I were to save seed, I'd just put a fine mesh bag around the first blossom clusters prior to them opening and save seeds from just those tomatoes. Cross pollination does not affect this years fruit, just the seeds.garden5 wrote: 8 kinds of tomatos....that's pretty impressive! One tip I can offer, though, is that you keep your different heirloom varieties a fair distance from each other so as to prevent cross-pollination. I'm not sure if cross-pollination will affect the fruit, but it will definitely affect the seed from that fruit if you are planning on carrying seed over from this year to next. If anyone has any info on whether or not cross-pollination affects the fruit from the cross pollinated plant, or just the seed inside it, I would be glad to know (perhaps this would make a good topic for a new post).
As for your theory, Petalfuzz, that any garden-grown tomato will beat the same variety store-bought any day, I wholeheartedly agree!
Rainbowgardener,
Unless you have Verticillium wilt, fusarium wilt strains I,II or III, nematodes, or some viral diseases hitting your plants, hybrids are just as prone to diseases as open pollinated 'heirloom' varieties. Each hybrid is specifically bred for resistance to one or a few of those diseases, listed as letters after the variety name on the packeage (e,g, SuperGirl VFFFN). A hybrid resistant to Fusarium stain 1 is susceptible to strains 2 and 3, and every other disease. Those diseases are either uncommon, or overwhelming, and often restricted to certain areas of the country. People tend to grow these resistant hybrids because they have no choice. Every other non resistant variety, hybrid or heirloom, dies early in their infected garden.
A few heirlooms are pretty susceptible to foliage disease. For example many people have trouble getting Yellow Pear through the whole season. But many heilrooms were once commercial varieties so they had to be fairly resistant to foliage diseases in order to be profitable, and Ohio was the origin and center of tomato breeding for "modern" tomatoes in the late 1800s early 1900s (Livingston's tomatoes) so you live in an area that is pretty conducive to growing "heirloom" tomatoes.
IMO the only reason to choose hybrids over OP varieties, in the absence of one of those few diseases I listed, would be a need for consistent productivity year after year. Hybrids tend to produce nearly the same amount of fruit under varying conditions (I.e 20 lbs/plant year to year), while heirlooms are more likely to have good years (30 lbs/plant) where they outproduce hybrids, and some bad years (15 lbs/plant), but that can be overcome by growing several different types.
If you have a need for super productive plants for canning etc, and are not concerned with flavor, then we are talking about a small number of hybrids anyway, but that still leaves the option open to try some of the older commercial canning varieties, or some highly productive family heirlooms such as Heidi, which may taste better than the hyperproductive hybrids). But for fresh eating, in the absence of a few specific diseases, there is no reason to choose hybrids over open pollinated varieties. Just don't try to grow Brandywine if you want alot of tomatoes. It gives heirlooms a bad name.
Here are some productivity numbers
https://nctomatoman.topcities.com/Off_The_Vine_ByCraig/COMPARE.htm
Unless you have Verticillium wilt, fusarium wilt strains I,II or III, nematodes, or some viral diseases hitting your plants, hybrids are just as prone to diseases as open pollinated 'heirloom' varieties. Each hybrid is specifically bred for resistance to one or a few of those diseases, listed as letters after the variety name on the packeage (e,g, SuperGirl VFFFN). A hybrid resistant to Fusarium stain 1 is susceptible to strains 2 and 3, and every other disease. Those diseases are either uncommon, or overwhelming, and often restricted to certain areas of the country. People tend to grow these resistant hybrids because they have no choice. Every other non resistant variety, hybrid or heirloom, dies early in their infected garden.
A few heirlooms are pretty susceptible to foliage disease. For example many people have trouble getting Yellow Pear through the whole season. But many heilrooms were once commercial varieties so they had to be fairly resistant to foliage diseases in order to be profitable, and Ohio was the origin and center of tomato breeding for "modern" tomatoes in the late 1800s early 1900s (Livingston's tomatoes) so you live in an area that is pretty conducive to growing "heirloom" tomatoes.
IMO the only reason to choose hybrids over OP varieties, in the absence of one of those few diseases I listed, would be a need for consistent productivity year after year. Hybrids tend to produce nearly the same amount of fruit under varying conditions (I.e 20 lbs/plant year to year), while heirlooms are more likely to have good years (30 lbs/plant) where they outproduce hybrids, and some bad years (15 lbs/plant), but that can be overcome by growing several different types.
If you have a need for super productive plants for canning etc, and are not concerned with flavor, then we are talking about a small number of hybrids anyway, but that still leaves the option open to try some of the older commercial canning varieties, or some highly productive family heirlooms such as Heidi, which may taste better than the hyperproductive hybrids). But for fresh eating, in the absence of a few specific diseases, there is no reason to choose hybrids over open pollinated varieties. Just don't try to grow Brandywine if you want alot of tomatoes. It gives heirlooms a bad name.
Here are some productivity numbers
https://nctomatoman.topcities.com/Off_The_Vine_ByCraig/COMPARE.htm
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stella1751
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 1494
- Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:40 am
- Location: Wyoming
I usually don't grow more than two plants of any one variety
(growing 65 varieties this year) and I have done tests that show bee induced cross pollination is on average 10%-20% of seed is crossed in my garden (higher mid to late season, lower early in the season). So in addition to saving seed from the first ripe fruit, to make sure that I have pure seed I bag blossom trusses using 5"x7" drawstring sachets sold at Walmart in the party/wedding aisle. You can also buy a peice of Tulle netting (really cheap) and either make your own bags or simply wrap a peice over a truss and hold in place with a string. I have the best luck with fruit setting inside the bags if I bag the earliest trusses of the season. Mid season the trusses seem to be very short/hard to bag, and rarely set fruit.
Peppers are worse than tomatoes at cross pollinating because of the flower structure so it is easiest to simply make really big bags out of tulle netting (fold the entire yard peice in half and cut for one bag) and bag the whole plant when they are just starting to flower and then mark the peppers grown inside the bag when the plant outgrows the bag. You can use a stapler, hand stitch, or use a sewing machine. Our machine is a PITA so we have to pin strips of paper along the stitch line and sew through that in order to keep the fabric from bunching up.
For a better idea of what is available check put Mariannas seeds, Sandhill Preservation, Tomato Growers Supply, Victory Seeds etc.
Tatiannas Tomatobase gives a rundown on a huge number of varieties. It is also a good reference for people growing in the short season cool Pacific Northwest.
https://tatianastomatobase.com
(growing 65 varieties this year) and I have done tests that show bee induced cross pollination is on average 10%-20% of seed is crossed in my garden (higher mid to late season, lower early in the season). So in addition to saving seed from the first ripe fruit, to make sure that I have pure seed I bag blossom trusses using 5"x7" drawstring sachets sold at Walmart in the party/wedding aisle. You can also buy a peice of Tulle netting (really cheap) and either make your own bags or simply wrap a peice over a truss and hold in place with a string. I have the best luck with fruit setting inside the bags if I bag the earliest trusses of the season. Mid season the trusses seem to be very short/hard to bag, and rarely set fruit.
Peppers are worse than tomatoes at cross pollinating because of the flower structure so it is easiest to simply make really big bags out of tulle netting (fold the entire yard peice in half and cut for one bag) and bag the whole plant when they are just starting to flower and then mark the peppers grown inside the bag when the plant outgrows the bag. You can use a stapler, hand stitch, or use a sewing machine. Our machine is a PITA so we have to pin strips of paper along the stitch line and sew through that in order to keep the fabric from bunching up.
For a better idea of what is available check put Mariannas seeds, Sandhill Preservation, Tomato Growers Supply, Victory Seeds etc.
Tatiannas Tomatobase gives a rundown on a huge number of varieties. It is also a good reference for people growing in the short season cool Pacific Northwest.
https://tatianastomatobase.com
Thank you for answering my question about cross-pollination affecting fruit.petalfuzz wrote:I'm not saving seed this year, so all my plants are in 2 beds, each with about 4 square feet around the plant. But if I were to save seed, I'd just put a fine mesh bag around the first blossom clusters prior to them opening and save seeds from just those tomatoes. Cross pollination does not affect this years fruit, just the seeds.garden5 wrote: 8 kinds of tomatos....that's pretty impressive! One tip I can offer, though, is that you keep your different heirloom varieties a fair distance from each other so as to prevent cross-pollination. I'm not sure if cross-pollination will affect the fruit, but it will definitely affect the seed from that fruit if you are planning on carrying seed over from this year to next. If anyone has any info on whether or not cross-pollination affects the fruit from the cross pollinated plant, or just the seed inside it, I would be glad to know (perhaps this would make a good topic for a new post).
As for your theory, Petalfuzz, that any garden-grown tomato will beat the same variety store-bought any day, I wholeheartedly agree!
I have two different types of tomatos (super beefsteak and big boy hybrids) growing in rows parallel to each other, and some of the fruit seemed to be uncharacteristic of its type. I guess that must be normal, or maybe it's just me.