Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

[applestar]

OK moved the last 4 posts HERE. (Oops we’re on the next page — the moved posts are on bottom of page 8 )

@TomatoNut95, fire away!

[TomatoNut95]

I have posted my own thread about my tomatoes called TomatoNuts tomatoes and peppers 2019!

[TomatoNut95]

Ok, now. I've read this, and taken notes. In order to cross, I am to carefully dig into the unopened 'female' blossom and remove the anther cone. After the female blossom opens, I collect pollen from the 'male' blossom by vibrating the open blossom with a battery toothbrush and dip the stigma of the 'female' into the pile of pollen. Am I correct so far? Do you have a close up photo of the female blossom with the anther cone removed? I'm the type who needs pictures with their instructions. I was thinking if possible I can cross a Black Beauty with my Micro Tom. And if the cross took, then the little Micro Tom fruit should show black coloring, right?


If I attempt the cross, I should do it in the morning, right? And the temperatures here have been in the mid-nineties. Is that too hot that the pollination may not take place? It hasn't rained for days, so no humidity I don't believe.

[applestar]

Ok, now. I've read this, and taken notes. In order to cross, I am to carefully dig into the unopened 'female' blossom and remove the anther cone. After the female blossom opens, I collect pollen from the 'male' blossom by vibrating the open blossom with a battery toothbrush and dip the stigma of the 'female' into the pile of pollen. Am I correct so far?

You have the procedure step by step. Only difference is the female blossom doesn’t “open” since you’ve already removed the sepals/calyces and petals. The idea is to separately mark a blossom at similar development as the one you operated on, and use that as the “indicator” of stigma readiness — when that one opens, the chosen female blossom stigma should also be ready to pollinate. (IIRC it’s about 8-18 hrs later — it really helps to just practice surgery on some blossoms — don’t just start cutting up the female blossoms you want to use unless you have plenty — but remember you also have to remove surrounding blossoms)

Do you have a close up photo of the female blossom with the anther cone removed? I'm the type who needs pictures with their instructions.

Subject: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

I emasculated a few blossoms this morning. I meant to only practice, but it was just like riding a bicycle.

I did bruise the stigma of the very first one by accidentally pinching with the forceps, and had to remember the trick of holding the sepal close to the base to keep the flowerbud steady.

Marz Pulcent, Maskotka, WSxFFS F4, MRxCF F3 white cherry, Sgt. Pepper's.
I got impatient with one of the tiny MRxCF buds and accidentally pulled the stigma off. But after doing all the little flowers, Sgt. Pepper's huge flowerbuds were a breeze.

Subject: Learning • Practicing to Cross Breed Tomato Varieties

I'm going to post an update after the cross-pollinated flowers start to show fruit development. Anyway, here's another one -- this one is a megabloom of Dwarf Blazing Beauty:

I was thinking if possible I can cross a Black Beauty with my Micro Tom. And if the cross took, then the little Micro Tom fruit should show black coloring, right?

...not quite unless you mis-described it. The resulting fruit should look like any other Micro Tom fruit, but without sepals/calyces since you removed them. You will mark this female blossom/fruit in any case in some way. It’s the saved F1 seeds from this fruit which may or may not show some recognizable characteristics. Antho, while dominant, may only be expressed slightly in the first generation, but can be selected for more significant expression from among the progeny in subsequent years/generations.

If I attempt the cross, I should do it in the morning, right? And the temperatures here have been in the mid-nineties. Is that too hot that the pollination may not take place? It hasn't rained for days, so no humidity I don't believe.

Optimum pollination temperature is 60’s to low 80’s. 90’s is probably too hot.

[TomatoNut95]

Why would I need to remove the other blossoms around the blossom I'm working with if I blossom bag or don't have any insect activity. I NEVER see insects mess with tomato blossoms. Honesty, I haven't seen many bees around here.

[applestar]

Subject: Applestar’s 2019 Garden

Molten Sun has volunteered in the same VGC/D bed F4 was growing in. This should make this year’s plant F5 with the fruits bearing F6 seeds.

It’s very difficult to capture on the iPhone cam, but compare the matte-white grape with the row of Molten Sun from the same plant — can you see the metallic/shiny streaks? The effect is enhanced in the sunlight by the clear/yellow striped epi and the translucent flesh underneath, as well as the faint blossom end blush.



...from July 18, 2018...

I’m excited by this new development in the Molten Sky line. At least two of the F4 plants are producing what looks like clear yellow with gold streaks instead of red with gold streaks. The yellow version appears to be slightly earlier, too. I only have one good Molten Sky F4 fruit harvested so far. These red elongated fruits which I thought are Molten Sky are not showing any/significant striping/streaks....

— you can see the difference in the color of Molten Sky variant F4 when compared to other white and yellow tomatoes here. I’m naming the variant Molten Sun F4

— bottom-right fruit trusses are Afternoon Rosé F4

[applestar]

I sorted through the Molten Sun F4/F5 and sister lines — harvested to date and now ripe, and discovered Molten Sun has a close branch sibling in the matte frosty/butter yellow Buttermints line — these are same size and shape as Buttermints, but like Molten Sun, are translucent and striped with faint pink blush. I’m calling them “Sun Mints F4/F5”

Harvested:


Ripe:

- it was really difficult to obtain the correct color under the fluorescent lights and I had to fiddle with photo editor. The result is a little more intense (darker yellow) than actual

— These are technically “white” with clear epi. The epi looks yellow to me where Molten Sun and Sun Mints are striped and/or pink blushed, but I have been instructed that epi pigment can‘t be truly distinguished without scraping the flesh completely, and I’m not sure if I’m doing that correctly.

— You might be able to see that part of the overall translucent appearance comes from the almost clear flesh. The striped appearance may be result of translucent yellow flesh vs. clear flesh that show up through the clear epi.

— I tried REALLY scraping some of the blushed Buttermints and Sun Mints — when all of the yellow and blushed pink flesh are thoroughly scraped off, the epi pieces became completely clear.



* Molten Sun fruit is an extra elongated, sometimes pointed, grape cherry with potential to develop larger fruits as the vine matures. It has the intense tropical fruit front end and umami similar to its parent Coyote, with full-flavored middle and lingering acid tang, although when tasted in direct comparison, it is somewhat milder and not as in-your-face roughness.

* Sun Mints fruit is an elongated, sometimes pointed, small/currant cherry with wider shoulders than the narrower blossom end. It is similar in flavor as Molten Sun, but has more of a pure acid burn that lingers on — sort of like cinnamon flavored “mints”.

* I need to taste more samples to be sure, but it seems like blushed Buttermints and blushed Sun Mints with tiny streaks of pink flesh have extra sweetness to them.

[lakngulf]

I surely do not know anything about cross breeding tomatoes, but I do know that if you have different varieties too close together they are likely to cross breed. (**Who does the scrapping in that case? ha ...just kidding).

Some time back the Webmaster offered seed from Boar Farms I believe. Included in the package was one variety I really like, called Amos Coli (based on guys name I believe). These are small to medium pear shaped, very tasty tomatoes. I decided to save some seed.

Well, well the next year I had some LARGE Amos Coli, still very tasty. I looked back at the planting chart and some Brandywine were very close to the Amos Coli......

So......I named the new variety Amos and Brandy......some of you older folks will get it!

[applestar]

That sounds delicious — how cool is that?

Amos and Brandy, huh? — I had to look it up, but the reference is a fun homage to the show(s) that must have been an amazing development in entertainment. If you keep saving seeds from subsequent generations and grow them out, you might start seeing small% of potato leaf seedlings and also pink (Clear epi) fruits. I’d love to see where this goes.

[applestar]

Today, I compared Shimofuri F6 fruits from VG.SIP-front left (FL) and VG.SIP- front right (FR). I cut up all the fruits I had so far — harvested during comparable time frame in the past week — and tasted the bottom quadrant of each fruit.



Overall, FR fruits were larger and were SWEET with tasty umami and lingering tang, while the FL fruits were watery and lacked the flavor complexity I’m looking for. FR plant had better variegation and slightly better disease resistance, and perhaps a bit more compact growth habit that I was hoping for, since I want try to select this line to be a patio container/hanging basket variety with sprawling determinate vines that would drape down from the edge of the container. I decided to save the FR seeds and not the FL seeds.



Representative FR fruits were mostly 1.4 oz and had slightly wider shoulders compared to the rounded blossom end. Equatorial cross section was often very slightly oval and there were more 3-locule fruits than 2-locule fruits.
1.6 in x 1.6 in x 1.7 in ~
1.6 in x 1.65 in x 1.7 in

SEEDS are at F7


.....

Here is an earlier detailed description of the FR — another point in its favor was that it had matured and started producing about 2 weeks earlier:

Shimofuri F6 VG.SIP-FR 2019

PLANT DESCRIPTION
- Good variegation in stems and calyces, Purple/pink stems
- keeps var in part sun location, but new growths in full sun lack variegation
- non-dwarf long internodes (*would love to try crossing with a micro-dwarf*)
- determinate heavily loaded trusses with sprawling vine habit may be trained to hang down
- SUSCEPTIBLE TO SEPTORIA AND EARLY BLIGHT especially after loaded with green developing fruits


FRUIT DESCRIPTION
- pink cocktail 1.1 oz ~ 1.5 oz, 1.25” x 1.5” ~ 1.5” x 1.75”
- oblong heart shape with pointed blossom end when cool, but loses point in heat
- tender clear epi
- Fresh front end, mildly sweet umami, lingering acid
- Tendency to split when overwatered — better to harvest at full blush and ripen indoors
- Skin-deep split will heal over but deteriorate faster
- Not a long keeper when split and loses sugars when overripe — better just ripe
- Unsplit, whole fruits can keep longer and develop more complex umami as long as not damaged by sucking insects

SEEDS are at F7

[applestar]

So, here they are at F7, and I have been growing them as my 2019~20 Winter Indoor Tomato project —

Shimofuri F7 VG.SIP-RF segregate, showing signs of determinate floral trusses (2 views with red arrows indicating terminating branches)

Even with the limited indoor lighting, they are growing with shorter internodes that I had hoped for, so under more intense outdoor light exposure, they might be even more compact? I’ll have to wait until next year to find out.

As you can see, they are not displaying a whole lot of variegated foliage, but they have been tantalizing with glimpses of the variegation POTENTIAL in the leaflets:

[TomatoNut95]

That is beautiful! If you don't mind my asking, what breeds did you mix to get the Shimofuri? It was a shame I did not get to attempt my own cross this year, the weather was so unagreeable. Maybe next year.

[applestar]

Haha. If you want to read the full history about Shimofuri, all you have to do is read this thread from the beginning. I have been posting ad nauseum ...I’m not sure if anybody is reading — I wouldn't be surprised if everybody has gotten tired of me jumping up and down, trumpeting, waving, and blathering on

...but to answer your question, Shimofuri is Whippersnapper x Faelan’s First Snow.

[TomatoNut95]

Lol, I just CANNOT get over the beautiful variegation of the Shimofuri! I own a Variegated tomato(FINALLY) and may attempt to cross it with a dwarf, such as Micro Tom or Tiny Tim. But the first main thing I was going to shoot for in crossing was dark fruit on a dwarf, such as crossing a Black Beauty or Blue Berries(if I get that variety) with Micro Tom or Tiny Tim. What I really need, is a list of the dominant and recessive traits of tomatoes to help me better on what the outcome of my crosses may be. I recall you said dwarf genes are recessive? Meaning the cross I MAY get, probably will not be a dwarf?

[applestar]

...

As for the genetics and basic concept of what kind of progeny these may produce, this is always a good guide:

Tomato Gene Basics
(in an eggshell)
kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html

...you may have seen it before.

—ETA—
(…oh darn it! Tomato Gene Basics
(in an eggshell)
www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html is not a secure https site so I can’t create a link. It’s a really good representation though…)

[TomatoNut95]

Thanks a million! That is VERY helpful information for me!

[applestar]

Soooo excited! I am ready to try crossing a Shimofuri (霜降り) segregate with a micro-dwarf

Two emasculated Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 HBR-FR flower buds and the intended pollen donor micro-dwarf Aztek floral cluster with nearly ready to open flower buds. The 2 Shimofuri (霜降り) buds were at approximately the same developmental stage. I believe I can expect to be able to attempt first pollen collection and pollination tomorrow night or Thursday morning.


- Aztek wasn’t my original intended pollen donor for this cross — I was trying to grow a pink fruited micro-dwarf for this Winter’s Indoor Tomato project. But all three seedlings failed early on. So Aztek it is.

... First Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 VG.SIP-FR tomato fruit is blushing

[TomatoNut95]

EEEEEEEEEE!!!
Let me know when you get a variegated micro dwarf, I will be DYING for seeds!! Or is that what you're aiming for? My 2020 annual Baker Creek shows a new release of an orange-fruited Micro Tom and I was like....awwwww, man; I want that! (But I say that about anything neat that I don't have...)

[applestar]

Aztek flower buds are still tightly closed. Maybe they take longer than the Shimofuri buds to open? Or maybe I misjudged. Hopefully the 2 prepared Shimofuri stigma will remain receptive. A couple more buds will be available to emasculate tomorrow.

[applestar]

One Aztek opened this morning, and I collected pollen and pollinated the prepped Shimofuri (霜降り) blossoms in the morning. At the same time, I emasculates another flower, but the Aztek had no more pollen.

But just now, I was able to collect a nice pile of pollen from the same Aztek blossom and pollinated all three.


I’ll attempt a third try in the morning for the first 2 blossoms and a second try for the 3rd. Technically 2 pollination attempts should be enough and sometimes 3rd is unnecessary or in advisable so as not to damage the stigma. I’ll take a good look in the morning first.

[applestar]

Succeeded in emasculating 2 Aztek blossoms this morning Botched a third one

Can’t decide which makes the process more difficult — the small stubby floral structure, short stubby pedicel (floral stem) in clustered truss, or the impossibly hairy fuzz


...I know when creating a cross, it’s a good idea to attempt both varieties AxB as well as varieties BxA (mother x father) because some traits are sex-linked. I believe this has been established for some of the variegation genes ... can’t remember if micro-nizing genes are also affected?

[TomatoNut95]

Good luck, @applestar!

[applestar]

Thanks!

[applestar]

Looking promising




...2nd ripening fruit and 3rd blushing fruit

[TomatoNut95]

[applestar]

These are the two micro-dwarf tomato - Aztek - plants. The first emasculated Aztek blossom didn’t make it, but I have another one. The trouble is, for some reason, NONE of the blossoms have been producing pollen for the past week or so. I finally got some from Shimofuri (霜降り) HBR-FR to drop ...just a tiny amount — I could almost count how many grains —yesterday and today, so I very gingery touched the exposed stigma. I’m so nervous about accidentally damaging it that I haven’t tagged it, though I did mark it with the thread.



...I’m thinking the lack of pollen could have been related to Persephone days with daylight diminishing to minimum, but another possibility might be that the ladybugs have been feeding on the only pollen available.

[applestar]

I believe, at F7 filial generation, both Shimofuri (霜降り) segregates — 2019-VG.SIP-FR and 2019-HBR-FR Are displaying the kind of shortened internodes and pliant growth habits suitable for sprawling from large hanging baskets or balcony/windowbox containers that I was hoping for. The HBR-FR segregate maybe showing somewhat more intense variegation, but this could simply be a lucky selection.

My understanding of affinity for these types of container cultivation is attributed to tendency to droop and sprawl rather than unyielding tendency to grow upwards. They are assisted by being determinate and becoming laden heavily with terminating fruit trusses.

These stems can be allowed to grow to some length, then gently but firmly trained to droop by tying town or weighing down. — If you try this with a variety with incompatible growth habit, the stems will not yield and snap... at least that has been my experience.

*I would love to hear from tomato growers who have had some experience growing hanging basket or balcony/windowbox container type varieties.*

- As the stems are encouraged to lay down and droop, they become twisted, and interesting visual effects emerge on these variegated/striped stems


... there is less leaf loss due to diseases, etc. in the Winter Indoor Garden, but it’s still necessary to trim older leaves that age and become tired or discolored like this lovely variegated example that has started to turn yellow...

[applestar]

...I know I know I’m using the same photos as the ones I posted for the Winter Garden, but they are relevant here, too...

...overall Shimofuri (霜降り) growths and fruitset


...Aztek growths and fruitset, plus the intentionally crossed {Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 x Aztek} fruits development on the upper left, and {Aztek x Shimofuri (霜降り)} development on the bottom. — that 3rd green-tagged {Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 x Aztek} with overhanging INTACT fruit* is suspect — I should have removed that blossom so it wouldn’t drop pollen on the exposed emasculated blossom below. I will save seeds from that one separately in case the cross didn’t take or on small% took.



* Remember — you remove most or all of the calyces when prepping And emasculating the blossom for intentional cross pollination (this is mostly to keep them from getting in the way while hand pollinating) so the fruits without calyces are easily spotted as being the crossed ones even without the string markers.

[applestar]

The two fruits with
{Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 x Aztek} F1 seeds inside are blushing!

[TomatoNut95]

Congrats!

[applestar]

Thanks! can’t wait to start these and see (1) if the cross “took” and (2) what offsprings result. F1 is typically not as exciting as F2’s and F3’s, so I have to get the first gen fruits to produce ASAP. Then hopefully I will be able to grow the F2’s for next Winter Indoor project.

[applestar]

The intentionally crossed (x Aztek) Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 HBR.FR-W2 fruits are ripe. I won’t try to ferment these. So far every time I’ve tried with the Shimofuri F7 seeds, they began to germinate in fermentation... but hopefully I have managed to save viable seeds.


...cute pointed pink large cherry sized fruits, but these are rounder than usual for some unknown reason. Yellow round fruits are Aztek.

[applestar]

Here are Shimofuri (霜降り) F8 VG.SIP.FR-WP2 segregate seedlings that were accidentally started due to premature germination. Lighter color splotches and ivory streak hints and splashes as well as broken Light and dark green patterns on lighter areas show up on true leaves, and by the 3rd set of true leaves, you start to see some really gorgeous foliage variegation patterns — 4 out of 5 are displaying promise at this stage. Lighter stems and stripes as well as purple/magenta in stems and veins usually show up later.


...and Some of the Shimofuri (霜降り) F8 HBR.FR-WP2 segregate seeds that germinated in fermentation Day2 and were started in this condiment cup have started to sprout with the little loops.

[TomatoNut95]

Great job, @applestar! What do the fruits taste like? Sweet?

[applestar]

Being Winter Indoor Tomatoes, grown in mid-70’s daytime high and as low as upper 50’s to low 60’s at night, they are not what you would think of as “sweet” and Shimofuri does not achieve what I would call intense tomato flavor anyhow. It is tangy and has a “fresh” flavor which melds into somewhat more complex flavor after about a week (3-5 days in the summer), but can fall into the “mild” category after that due to the flavor structure breaking down — but it is still more flavorful than the store-bought tomatoes.

Especially since I have the Aztek to compare to which has a more intense burst of flavor, I think that would be the correct assessment.

The new cross will hopefully infuse more flavor to the fruits as well as miniaturizing to the micro-dewars size, and maybe interesting color combos from the genetic mix. I *think* the pink and yellow genetics have the potential to result in bi-color. And, of course, increasing variegated foliage and stems will be selected for in the subsequent generations to hopefully restore to the current Shimofuri level.

At some point, I’m going to cross Shimofuri (霜降り) — or maybe my other line with working name of “Jack Frost’s Early Love”— with a *SWEET* fruited dwarf or micro-dwarf variety to encourage sweeter flavored, well-variegated selection. I think I will want to lean towards larger fruits for that one, too... still noodling which variety to use.

[TomatoNut95]

Have you tried Snow Fairy or seen the new orange Micro Tom Baker Creek offers? Maybe you could attempt to cross using those?

[applestar]

Have not tried Snow Fairy or Micro Tom.

Looking them up, Snow Fairy is an extra early small round red, possibly within micro dwarf category but some say up to 24 inches tall which puts them in patio dwarf size to me. Flavor reviews are mixed and I already had a go of trying to grow a whole bunch of extra early small round red dwarfs, and would probably choose one of the better results from my own trial.

I have yet to see one of super micro dwarfs (around 6-8 inches) that have been able to garner good flavor reviews. I tried one that probably qualify — Mohamed — and it was extremely difficult to grow due to super tightly bunched growth habit (the internodes are TOO short to get in between to care for the plant) ... definitely not during the main summer growing season due to excessive disease and overt drying out in small containers necessary to keep them up high enough to look at them properly and even then need to pick them up and turn them to see from all sides — absolutely impossible to care for down on the ground unless you want to get down on hands and knees.

If I ever see great reviews on one of these super micro dwarf types that I could expect superior results (not just “cute novelty”), I might find a slot for growing it in the Winter Indoor Garden now that I have found a way to auto-irrigate, but it’s probably still not the best care-free hardy type suited for me since I end up having too many plants to take care of properly/sufficiently even when I managed to take a peek/glance at them once every day ... gardeners who can provide dedicated care might see better results than me ....

caveat — note that I don’t spray my plants with anything much — maybe milk or potassium bicarbonate solution or weak peroxide, a bit of oil and soap, AACT (actively aerated compost tea), bokashi tea. My impression after trying to grow the tighter bunched micro dwarfs during the summer growing season is that gardeners who spray them with more hardcore products/chemicals to prevent/cure fungal diseases and insect pests (aphids, mites, whiteflies, tomato leaf miners) might be able to grow the pristine catalog photo candidates, but not I.

I couldn’t get in between the compacted growths to prune off damaged leaves, and even when I could, it was sometimes difficult to extricate the cut off leaf or leaflets. Sometimes breaking off perfectly healthy leaves or developing fruits in the process, and sometimes even the fruits were difficult to harvest, especially once they had ripened since they were too soft to withstand being held too firmly or manipulated too much. Their total number of leaves is too small to cut off too many too often, ending up with denuded plants pitifully trying to develop or ripen overloaded fruit trusses. (Did you see the photo from last season when I missed discovering a hornworm and it got into one of the micro dwarfs?)

[TomatoNut95]

I grew Snow Fairy once years ago. I don't see it as a Micro-dwarf either as it's height was around 1-2 feet. The fruits were a little too blah for me, I admit. Not bitter like Micro Tom but blah like a store-bought tomato. Tiny Tim is the best tasting dwarf I've grown so far. 1 foot tall plants, but gets top-heavy when starts bearing fruit.

[applestar]

Obviously, it was way too early to start these Shimofuri (霜降り) F8 even though I couldn’t just throw them out entirely when the seeds sprouted in fermentation....

[applestar]

One fun part of growing many different varieties of tomatoes from seeds is the opportunity to observe the many slight to significant trait differences they exhibit as sprouting seedlings, some of which disappear or become less apparent as they grow.

Here, while letting these babies enjoy some direct sunshine in the SE window I confirmed what I have been noticing and wondering about while they were under the lights — code-labeled S7.A F1 — these new F1 seedlings of the Shimofuri (霜降り) F7 x Aztek cross ALL have pale blotchy colored cotyledons (seedleaves). It’s become even more obvious now that they are starting to grow healthy, dark green true leaves. Can you spot them?