Multiple front yard questions

[Nascar_Greenthumb_7]

I'll be as specific as I can here; I have a 10' by 20' front yard that after every winter has dead spots popping up.I was planning on using Round Up to kill off the grass & putting in a mix of Native Wildgrasses,annuals & perrenials to the Northern Indiana(South Bend) area.My questions are 1)Will using the Round Up hurt the soil? Is there a less harmful equivalant to kill off the grass? 2)Any suggestions on a Border grass or plant that can grow about 5' high to enclose the garden from the sidewalk(yard is partal shade & facing the East.) I'm thining of a Celtic Garden theme;any suggestions for plants that can survive winter temps that get near 0 degrees? Any suggestions are appreciated,thanks~~NG7

[bullthistle]

Roundup will kill the good pests best to till and remove the sod and put it in a compost bin. Why not put woody plants alond the sidewalk because perennials will not stop anyone from the yard if that's why you want something tall. Make a hedge.

[uniquegardenplants]

Round-up won't hurt the soil a bit. It is a contact herbicide meaning it works through contact with leaf surface, not soil. If any is spilled or lightly sprayed across a soil surface, it breaks down very quickly...within a few days it is gone.

Not too many tall grasses that perform in shade but take a look at Korean Feather Reed Grass (Calamagrostis brachytricha). Performs well in semi shade and gives a cool woodland look. Can grow in zone 4.

[cynthia_h]

To kill the unwanted grass: There are two non-toxic methods that come to mind right away. Each will leave the soil ready for new plants, even edible plants, and will not kill the subsurface organisms whose health is the basis of our own.

The first is to solarize the soil, either with black plastic ground-stapled into the earth for a couple of weeks (until the grass dies).

The second (and possibly more immediately gratifying) is to apply horticultural vinegar to the grass. My apple-cider vinegar and my white kitchen vinegar are each 5% acetic acid; horticultural vinegar is 20% acetic acid.

With regard to Roundup: it's toxic to aquatic life and to people. Using Roundup anywhere where it could run off in storm drains, curbs, etc., or where it could percolate down to groundwater means that it can kill fish and other "aquatic organisms." The inert ingredients (unnamed on the Roundup label) are of unspecified toxicity.

Sad to say, the initial "studies" re. the supposed safety of using Roundup were not scientifically valid; see https://www.naturescountrystore.com/roundup/index.html for background on this statement.

Here are two direct quotes from the site:

1) "Studies used for RoundUp's initial registration were fraudulent. There is no indication that these studies have been replaced with other, more valid, studies."

2) "New York State's Attorney General has sued Monsanto for claiming that RoundUp is 'safe' and 'environmentally friendly.' This suit ended in a settlement with Monsanto in which Monsanto agreed to cease and desist from using these terms in advertising RoundUp in the state of New York. Monsanto, while not admitting any wrongdoing, paid the state of New York $250,000 in settlement of this suit. When Monsanto violated the first settlement agreement by advertising within New York that RoundUp is 'safe,' a second agreement was negotiated."

Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, affects human respiratory, digestive, liver, endocrine, and reproductive systems.

I understand why the name "Roundup" occurred to the OP in this thread. Monsanto has untold millions of dollars at its disposal for advertising campaigns, whether fraudulent or truthful, and can afford to employ an army of lawyers to enforce its point of view on others regardless of the science.

But at a time when Colony Collapse Disorder is decimating honeybees and other pollinators--responsible for anywhere from 30% to 40% of all food crops in North America--it seems incredible to me that Roundup or similar products could be recommended by those in the know for anything less than removal of poison oak or poison ivy after all other measures had been exhausted.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[rainbowgardener]

Thanks so much cynthia, for taking the time to write out again such a nice summary of issues with Roundup. OP can type Roundup into the search the forum feature and find lots more.

It is true that Round up breaks down fairly rapidly in the soil, but a lot of the break down products are also environmentally harmful. Just because it is no longer functioning as a herbicide doesn't mean it is no longer harming bees, aquatic life, etc.

I would think anyone who is concerned to use native plants would also be concerned about these issues.

Options for getting rid of the grass as noted include solarizing, vinegar treatment, tilling it under, cutting the sod out, or since 10x20 is a pretty manageable size area, sheet mulching: water the area well, lay down a couple thicknesses of heavy cardboard over the whole area of grass you want to get rid of. water well again, lay down several inches of good topsoil (enriched with compost, peat moss, potting soil or other soil amendments) on top of the compost and plant into it. You can just sow seed into the topsoil you added. To plant shrubs, etc cut a hole in the cardboard for them to be able to grow down into the ground below.

I did that to turn a couple 8x6 areas of my lawn into flower beds; worked beautifully.

For enclosing your garden, tall grasses would work. As was noted hedges are a possibility, it would be traditional for the Celtic garden. Think about maybe a blueberry hedge - cold hardy, grows in part sun conditions and provides fruit. Or for your small area, if you don't want to give up a lot of space to a hedge, maybe just put up fencing (bamboo or willow fencing gives a natural look) and then grow vines or something up it.

[MaineDesigner]

I have no intention of getting sucked into the glyphosate debate save to say that I find a fair amount of careless use of language and scientifically dubious assertions on both sides of the debate. I will, however, speak to the use of solarization and vinegar.

Solarization may work great in hot summer/intense sun conditions but here in northern New England I don't find it very useful. I have seen situations here where even after 45 - 60 days of mid summer solarization the area was quickly repopulated by perennial weeds. The speed of regrowth and a bit of spade and trowel work revealed that it had not been effective in killing the root systems of tough perennial weeds.

Acetic acid (vinegar) also has distinct limitations as a herbicide. Household vinegar (5% acetic acid) is not effective on much beyond the tenderest of broadleaved weeds. On most tough weeds it will cause a bit of top burn but that is about it. 20% to 25% acetic acid solutions are more effective but still have their limitations and any characterization of these dangerous chemicals as benign is IMO irresponsible.

I'm sure I've pissed off everyone by now but that is my experience and my reading of the scientific literature.