Help please.
I have a very bad infestation of ants, aphids and harlequin bugs and need to knock them down to a level that is manageable.
I want to mix neem(Green light) with pyrethrins + PBO(old Bug Stop) so the pyrethrins have some sticking power.
I cannot find information about mixing them in terms of what it might do to the plants.
Both breakdown and will be mostly gone within a day or two. I have NO harvest for weeks on the plants to be sprayed. Spray on primarily one bed with okra, tomatoes and chard + some companions in it but there are a few others, I.p., fruit trees, that have ants bringing aphids to them that need it also.
Anybody here tried that combo?
Does it fry the leaves, kill the plant, or something else bad?
Thanks for any assistance!
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Anonymous
No no no and no.
Your concoction will kill off way too many beneficials and to top things off, you'd be back to square one in all of a few weeks using this alleged quick fix. Besides which, pyrethrins is nasty stuff.
Search old threads for information or go online and familiarize yourself with the ant/aphid mutualism. You might as well check into the spread of aphid-vectored viruses while you're at it. Ants harvest aphids. If you don't address them first, the ants will be in a position to bring stashed aphids back to your plants to be able to "milk" them again. The ants will re-establish the aphid colony. You really need to post photos of the ants you have and while you're at it, post photos of the aphids.
Try ant baits.
Once you begin addressing the existence of the ants, then you can begin dealing with the aphids. Many organic means by which to do so that won't leave you with a bigger mess on your hands.
As far as the harlequin bugs... look up Murgantia histrionica. Easier to help yourself if you use the scientific name. Those are actually a bigger problem than the aphids in my opinion but chances are pretty good you can kill two birds with one stone on this. I've not been plagued by those so I'll do some checking on a biological control for you.
I think you might want to look into the root of these issues. You're doing something improperly in that particular vegetable bed that needs to be corrected. Are you using chemical fertilizers? Veggies aren't my deal. I'm too new to them myself. Get help with them from somebody who has considerably more experience with them than me.
Your concoction will kill off way too many beneficials and to top things off, you'd be back to square one in all of a few weeks using this alleged quick fix. Besides which, pyrethrins is nasty stuff.
Search old threads for information or go online and familiarize yourself with the ant/aphid mutualism. You might as well check into the spread of aphid-vectored viruses while you're at it. Ants harvest aphids. If you don't address them first, the ants will be in a position to bring stashed aphids back to your plants to be able to "milk" them again. The ants will re-establish the aphid colony. You really need to post photos of the ants you have and while you're at it, post photos of the aphids.
Try ant baits.
Once you begin addressing the existence of the ants, then you can begin dealing with the aphids. Many organic means by which to do so that won't leave you with a bigger mess on your hands.
As far as the harlequin bugs... look up Murgantia histrionica. Easier to help yourself if you use the scientific name. Those are actually a bigger problem than the aphids in my opinion but chances are pretty good you can kill two birds with one stone on this. I've not been plagued by those so I'll do some checking on a biological control for you.
I think you might want to look into the root of these issues. You're doing something improperly in that particular vegetable bed that needs to be corrected. Are you using chemical fertilizers? Veggies aren't my deal. I'm too new to them myself. Get help with them from somebody who has considerably more experience with them than me.
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Anonymous
Please ... 
I will rephrase the question and subdivide.
Has anyone mixed neem(70% clarified extract of neem oil) with 1% pyrethrins and PBO(a synergist)?
Was there any damage to foliage after making the application?
Any noticeable damage otherwise?
The neem concentrate is the Green Light stuff(not that it matters much). It, of course, does not contain Azadirachtin.
The pyrethrins are from an old bottle of Bug Stop( but only opened a few weeks ago ). It contains 1% pyrethrin(_NOT_ permethrin) and piperonyl butoxide(PBO - as a synergist).
I would be using concentrate to mix a solution in a 1 or 2 gallon sprayer that has a wand. Concentrations would be tbsp per gallon of each so two tbsp total per gallon.
Of course the temp will be over 90*F during day but application will be late evening when temp is below 90 & will stay that way until mid-morning the next day.
Anybody?
I will rephrase the question and subdivide.
Has anyone mixed neem(70% clarified extract of neem oil) with 1% pyrethrins and PBO(a synergist)?
Was there any damage to foliage after making the application?
Any noticeable damage otherwise?
The neem concentrate is the Green Light stuff(not that it matters much). It, of course, does not contain Azadirachtin.
The pyrethrins are from an old bottle of Bug Stop( but only opened a few weeks ago ). It contains 1% pyrethrin(_NOT_ permethrin) and piperonyl butoxide(PBO - as a synergist).
I would be using concentrate to mix a solution in a 1 or 2 gallon sprayer that has a wand. Concentrations would be tbsp per gallon of each so two tbsp total per gallon.
Of course the temp will be over 90*F during day but application will be late evening when temp is below 90 & will stay that way until mid-morning the next day.
Anybody?
I don't know if you're going to receive responses to those types of questions no matter how you re-phrase them in an organic gardening board. I've not noticed anyone with a pesticide applicators license ever posting in this area with any regularity.
The Bug Stop with which I have the most familiarity is the Spectracide product and the active ingredient is Tralomethrin. You might want to pull up the MSDS sheet on that. The product is extremely toxic to organisms other than those which you wish to knock down. You're going to negatively impact non-target species regardless of whether the active ingredient is Tralomethrin or a synthetic pyrethroid and petroleum solvent combo which would be what you described above when you mentioned a "1% pyrethrin(_NOT_ permethrin) and piperonyl butoxide(PBO - as a synergist)" formulation. I seriously don't think gardeners contributing in this area have experience with these types of chemicals. Risk of drift is high particularly when applying with a sprayer and wand and I think the concept behind gardening organically would be that most over here attempt to avoid conventional pesticides and artificial fertilizers by subscribing to environmentally friendly practices.
To the best of my knowledge, it's still against the law to use products inconsistent with the labeling.
The Bug Stop with which I have the most familiarity is the Spectracide product and the active ingredient is Tralomethrin. You might want to pull up the MSDS sheet on that. The product is extremely toxic to organisms other than those which you wish to knock down. You're going to negatively impact non-target species regardless of whether the active ingredient is Tralomethrin or a synthetic pyrethroid and petroleum solvent combo which would be what you described above when you mentioned a "1% pyrethrin(_NOT_ permethrin) and piperonyl butoxide(PBO - as a synergist)" formulation. I seriously don't think gardeners contributing in this area have experience with these types of chemicals. Risk of drift is high particularly when applying with a sprayer and wand and I think the concept behind gardening organically would be that most over here attempt to avoid conventional pesticides and artificial fertilizers by subscribing to environmentally friendly practices.
To the best of my knowledge, it's still against the law to use products inconsistent with the labeling.
Azadirachtin IS the active ingredient in neem seeds/oil:
https://www.neemuses.com/azadirachtin.php
So of course the Green Light stuff (which I myself use, by the way) has Azadirachtin in it!
I have no experience with either pyrethrins or permethrins, that I know of.
When I do use the neem, I use it towards the end of the day, when pollinators have gone to bed, and I aim my little spray gun directly at the rose leaves which are usually my target. I aim UP into the undersides of the leaves and DOWN onto the tops of the leaves. I avoid as much as possible spraying from side to side, because this will definitely drift over to the jade plant--no pollinators there--or the rosemary shrub/tree--LOTS of pollinators there!
So, even with the neem, be aware of pollinators' schedules and habits in your yard and give them every courtesy you can.
Often, mixing chemicals potentiates them. In other words, 1 + 1 will equal much more than 2. (Think about all those warnings on medications: Do NOT take with alcohol...same mechanism--potentiation.)
I'd start with the neem and give it a couple of days.
If you're really grossed out about the aphids, squash 'em (bare-handed or with gloves, either way is squashed dead aphids).
If the ants are driving you crazy (and mine were on Monday), cinnamon-ize them and/or pour boiling water into the nest(s). Diatomaceous earth on their runways will also discourage them.
I have also been known to take great satisfaction (not glee, we're talking mass murder here) in pouring boiling water on ant nests. It's quick and it's non-toxic.
Boiling water will, however, kill the roots of any plant so unfortunate as to be boiled, so be careful. I've also used boiling water to kill weeds in the sidewalk/driveway cracks.
Cynthia H.
USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 17
https://www.neemuses.com/azadirachtin.php
So of course the Green Light stuff (which I myself use, by the way) has Azadirachtin in it!
I have no experience with either pyrethrins or permethrins, that I know of.
When I do use the neem, I use it towards the end of the day, when pollinators have gone to bed, and I aim my little spray gun directly at the rose leaves which are usually my target. I aim UP into the undersides of the leaves and DOWN onto the tops of the leaves. I avoid as much as possible spraying from side to side, because this will definitely drift over to the jade plant--no pollinators there--or the rosemary shrub/tree--LOTS of pollinators there!
So, even with the neem, be aware of pollinators' schedules and habits in your yard and give them every courtesy you can.
Often, mixing chemicals potentiates them. In other words, 1 + 1 will equal much more than 2. (Think about all those warnings on medications: Do NOT take with alcohol...same mechanism--potentiation.)
I'd start with the neem and give it a couple of days.
If you're really grossed out about the aphids, squash 'em (bare-handed or with gloves, either way is squashed dead aphids).
If the ants are driving you crazy (and mine were on Monday), cinnamon-ize them and/or pour boiling water into the nest(s). Diatomaceous earth on their runways will also discourage them.
I have also been known to take great satisfaction (not glee, we're talking mass murder here) in pouring boiling water on ant nests. It's quick and it's non-toxic.
Boiling water will, however, kill the roots of any plant so unfortunate as to be boiled, so be careful. I've also used boiling water to kill weeds in the sidewalk/driveway cracks.
Cynthia H.
USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 17
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Anonymous
No, it does not. Neem oil has it. The stuff that is sold via wal-mart, lowes and everywhere else to the general public is clarified extract of neem oil. Not the same thing. Do some more research if you doubt.cynthia_h wrote:Azadirachtin IS the active ingredient in neem seeds/oil:
https://www.neemuses.com/azadirachtin.php
So of course the Green Light stuff (which I myself use, by the way) has Azadirachtin in it!
Thank you for all the advice|tips. I agree with all of them.cynthia_h wrote: ...lots of good advice..
...
Cynthia H.
USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 17
That synergy between neem and pyrethrins is why I asked the original question. It is possible that the combination can become very acidic or alkaline and burn the plants. It may even be that the pyrethrins won't work in an oil base.
I have looked for research on it but found none. I was hoping that some bright organic gardener had combined the two and could relate personal experience.
Guess not ...
Have Fun!
PS
Cyn, if Azadirachtin was an ingredient in the Green Light, GardenSafe or other similar (Bonide 3n1 tomato RTU spray) products it would be on the label. Azadirachtin is an EPA controlled substance and federal law mandates that it be listed if it is included. It is not on the label because it is not in the product. It is very hard to find products with Azadirachtin in them. One just about has to buy pure neem oil or the seeds.