Seems like everyone is saying organic these days. Is there any regulation of that term or can anyone throw it out there? And if that's the case what can you look for to make sure something is organic?
Specially for planting soils.
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ApertureF11Sniper
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- Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:07 pm
- Location: Washington State
By strict definition organic just means it comes from a source that was once living vs being mined or manufactured. However, some non organic products are allowed in organic farming.
The NOP sets standards for what can be labeled organic. But there are different levels of organic. Some of these levels are not totally organic. There is a lot of cheating and not enough oversight. The NOP sets standards and creates the paper work, but depends on other agencies to actually do the checking. People also mistakenly believe that organic does not use pesticides. That is not true. Oganic farmers have to use organic and approved pesticides, some of those are on the exception list. Organic food should not have very much pesticide residues that are tested. However, usually only chemical residues are tested. No one tests for organic residues. Some organic pesticides are very toxic. So toxic that they are no longer used. Ex. nicotine and rotenone. Pyrethrins are organic if they are not mixed with oils to prolong their effects, but they are very toxic especially to bees and the organic people don't really want to own up to that.
According to Many medical specialties and Harvard Health, organic food is not statistically more nutritious if it is grown under similar conditions for the same variety. There is a difference in meat quality as the diet of grass finished and grain finished beef will affect the fat content and quality of the fat It also makes grass fed beef leaner and a little drier and tougher. It depends on what you want in to eat in the end.
Ultimately, what matters most is that people need to eat a variety of fruits and vegetables in their diet. Americans in general need to eat more vegetables and less meat. Eating a variety of fruits and vegetables is more important than whether it is organic or conventional.
If organic is important to you, it is better to buy your produce from a farmer you have vetted or grow your own. Even if you grow your own produce organically, no one is going to label your produce organic, so does a label really matter? For your own peace of mind you know what goes in your garden and if it was organic or not. Even if you put "organic inputs", unless you test it yourself, few organic products are analyzed. Some have NPK on the label, but most just give a list of ingredients.
Organic products are not without contaminants. Case in point are the grazon contaminated composts, Bone meal is an animal by product but do you know that it does contain traces of lead? It is not enough to cause a health concern, but it is there and also in other organ parts. People believe organic is purer, but it is not necessarily so and there is less regulation in terms of testing requirements.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5533136/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/org ... 1209055264
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttk-T2m ... =TexasEats
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... t-20043880
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAFIDR ... annel=CNBC
The NOP sets standards for what can be labeled organic. But there are different levels of organic. Some of these levels are not totally organic. There is a lot of cheating and not enough oversight. The NOP sets standards and creates the paper work, but depends on other agencies to actually do the checking. People also mistakenly believe that organic does not use pesticides. That is not true. Oganic farmers have to use organic and approved pesticides, some of those are on the exception list. Organic food should not have very much pesticide residues that are tested. However, usually only chemical residues are tested. No one tests for organic residues. Some organic pesticides are very toxic. So toxic that they are no longer used. Ex. nicotine and rotenone. Pyrethrins are organic if they are not mixed with oils to prolong their effects, but they are very toxic especially to bees and the organic people don't really want to own up to that.
According to Many medical specialties and Harvard Health, organic food is not statistically more nutritious if it is grown under similar conditions for the same variety. There is a difference in meat quality as the diet of grass finished and grain finished beef will affect the fat content and quality of the fat It also makes grass fed beef leaner and a little drier and tougher. It depends on what you want in to eat in the end.
Ultimately, what matters most is that people need to eat a variety of fruits and vegetables in their diet. Americans in general need to eat more vegetables and less meat. Eating a variety of fruits and vegetables is more important than whether it is organic or conventional.
If organic is important to you, it is better to buy your produce from a farmer you have vetted or grow your own. Even if you grow your own produce organically, no one is going to label your produce organic, so does a label really matter? For your own peace of mind you know what goes in your garden and if it was organic or not. Even if you put "organic inputs", unless you test it yourself, few organic products are analyzed. Some have NPK on the label, but most just give a list of ingredients.
Organic products are not without contaminants. Case in point are the grazon contaminated composts, Bone meal is an animal by product but do you know that it does contain traces of lead? It is not enough to cause a health concern, but it is there and also in other organ parts. People believe organic is purer, but it is not necessarily so and there is less regulation in terms of testing requirements.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5533136/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/org ... 1209055264
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttk-T2m ... =TexasEats
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... t-20043880
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAFIDR ... annel=CNBC
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applestar
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We had a pretty good discussion related to this recently here 
viewtopic.php?t=78548
Subject: Can organic feed the world?
You might be interested?
viewtopic.php?t=78548
Subject: Can organic feed the world?
You might be interested?
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ApertureF11Sniper
- Cool Member
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:07 pm
- Location: Washington State
It's very sobering what you said. Very discouraging too. At least I can control my pepper plants and what else I grow. We have slugs here that are big enough to put a saddle on and are a real problem but I don't even put down anything for those. I have a jug with salt in it and I go on slug patrols.
My pepper plants and all others I will not spray them with anything and will only fertilize with that Alaskan Fish fertilizer stuff, liquid stuff. Any fertilizer thats of benefit and organic please let me know..
Again I thank you for the post and the help and will check that link when I get a chance.
My pepper plants and all others I will not spray them with anything and will only fertilize with that Alaskan Fish fertilizer stuff, liquid stuff. Any fertilizer thats of benefit and organic please let me know..
Again I thank you for the post and the help and will check that link when I get a chance.
People do want to be organic and organic practices do benefit a healthy soil. You do have to remember that organic fertilizers don't feed the plants directly. Organic fertilizers feed the soil microbes. Soil microbes convert the organic compounds to inorganic compounds that the plants can use. They do not make nutrients on demand for the plants. The soil microbes are looking out for themselves first. The plants gets what is left over and they don't always have especially nitrogen available when they need it. It takes time so you have to add organic fertilizers well in advance of when you will need it. Organic fertilizers have low NPK and the nitrogen in organic fertilizers are usually not all available nitrogen. Nutrients in organic fertilizers are not in a form that is readily available to plants when they need it. It is why you have to supplement. Nitrogen in synthetic fertilizers are fast food, they are in a form plants can take up immediately, but it is also why you can over do it.
BTW a few years ago Alaska fish emulsion temporarily lost their OMRI certificate but it was not their fault. The fish monger put ammonia fertilizer into the fermenting fish to boost the nitrogen without their knowledge. It has since been fixed.
Plants and microbes don't really care what the source of the nutrients are, as long as they have it. But, it is better to keep everything balanced not too much or too little. Organic amendments, compost and fertilizers do have carbon which is necessary for supporting a healthy soil.
I prefer to do hybrid gardening. Adding compost and carbon to support soil life, but since I don't want to lug big bags of fertilizer with low NPK around that is not giving the plants what they need when they need it, and are not necessarily complete. Definition of a complete fertilizer is a fertilizer that has N,P, and K. However, there are about 13 elements plants need. The elements themselves need to be balanced as well. If there is too much Calcium and Potassium it will have negative effects on the availability of Phosphorus, Nitrogen, and micro nutrients. pH that is too alkaline also affects micro nutrient availability. Soil organisms are more active in warm soils. Outside of the tropic zone, the soil biota isn't very active for almost half a year. Organic composts are not always tested by batches. Sometimes they do random testing monthly, others every few months. If there are contaminants like herbicides, or they have heavy metals, no one will know unless you specifically test for them. Most people only test soils and compost for nutrients, not for contaminants. Manures have to be well aged and hot composted or there is a risk of pathogens e. coli, salmonella. Farms have been contaminated by nearby farm runoff unknowingly.
People do have success gardening organically but if their soil is mediocre to begin with, it will take years to get yields as good as conventional.
Even though I know my garden is super rich, and I add compost, my garden yields are better with synthetic nitrogen. I don't need a lot of that either.
Organic in the ground is easier to do than in containers. Containers started with sterile media need to build up soil biota before they can convert organic fertilizer to an inorganic form that is available to plants. They are more dependent on supplements. If the pots are small, they will not be able to support a large enough soil microbe population to meet the needs of the plants.
I don't call anything that requires constant inputs: Weekly supplements, or continually adding compost with each planting cycle sustainable. There is nothing sustainable about it. And it is not sustainable if it is organic or conventional if you are intensively planting and harvesting out produce. What is taken from the garden is removed from the cycle so it has to be replaced, so nothing really is sustainable if the cycle is broken.
In the end the choice to be organic or not is yours. You just have to sort through what is fact and what is propaganda. Some people feel much better eating organic vs conventional foods. Nobody should be eating highly processed and salt loaded foods, even though they are very pervasive in society and they taste good. They still may not be good for you in the long run.
Organic food does benefit some people who are particularly sensitive to certain foods. The food in the market is generally safe. There is more testing of conventional foods than organic. Although you may be using organic inputs, unless you are making your own compost, and know what is going into the source material, or testing it yourself, it is not generally regularly tested commercially. Neither is testing required on a regular or batch basis even though it is known that compost analysis will vary from batch to batch depending on the inputs.
Organic food is not more nutritious than conventional. That is based on science. What matters most is eating a variety of fruits and vegetables and more of them.
Supplements are another story. Nature does not concentrate anything. If you have to take a supplement because you are not eating a food or are a vegetarian by choice then you may be missing out on something. I don't think there is anything natural about concentrated supplements.
How animals are raised does matter. Breeding for more fat or size, hormones, and the choice of feed does affect the final product. Grass finished meat is shown to have less fat and the quality of fat that is there is better than animals kept in a feedlot and fed a lot of grain to bulk them up. The quality and taste of the meat is different and it depends on what is important to you in the end.
BTW a few years ago Alaska fish emulsion temporarily lost their OMRI certificate but it was not their fault. The fish monger put ammonia fertilizer into the fermenting fish to boost the nitrogen without their knowledge. It has since been fixed.
Plants and microbes don't really care what the source of the nutrients are, as long as they have it. But, it is better to keep everything balanced not too much or too little. Organic amendments, compost and fertilizers do have carbon which is necessary for supporting a healthy soil.
I prefer to do hybrid gardening. Adding compost and carbon to support soil life, but since I don't want to lug big bags of fertilizer with low NPK around that is not giving the plants what they need when they need it, and are not necessarily complete. Definition of a complete fertilizer is a fertilizer that has N,P, and K. However, there are about 13 elements plants need. The elements themselves need to be balanced as well. If there is too much Calcium and Potassium it will have negative effects on the availability of Phosphorus, Nitrogen, and micro nutrients. pH that is too alkaline also affects micro nutrient availability. Soil organisms are more active in warm soils. Outside of the tropic zone, the soil biota isn't very active for almost half a year. Organic composts are not always tested by batches. Sometimes they do random testing monthly, others every few months. If there are contaminants like herbicides, or they have heavy metals, no one will know unless you specifically test for them. Most people only test soils and compost for nutrients, not for contaminants. Manures have to be well aged and hot composted or there is a risk of pathogens e. coli, salmonella. Farms have been contaminated by nearby farm runoff unknowingly.
People do have success gardening organically but if their soil is mediocre to begin with, it will take years to get yields as good as conventional.
Even though I know my garden is super rich, and I add compost, my garden yields are better with synthetic nitrogen. I don't need a lot of that either.
Organic in the ground is easier to do than in containers. Containers started with sterile media need to build up soil biota before they can convert organic fertilizer to an inorganic form that is available to plants. They are more dependent on supplements. If the pots are small, they will not be able to support a large enough soil microbe population to meet the needs of the plants.
I don't call anything that requires constant inputs: Weekly supplements, or continually adding compost with each planting cycle sustainable. There is nothing sustainable about it. And it is not sustainable if it is organic or conventional if you are intensively planting and harvesting out produce. What is taken from the garden is removed from the cycle so it has to be replaced, so nothing really is sustainable if the cycle is broken.
In the end the choice to be organic or not is yours. You just have to sort through what is fact and what is propaganda. Some people feel much better eating organic vs conventional foods. Nobody should be eating highly processed and salt loaded foods, even though they are very pervasive in society and they taste good. They still may not be good for you in the long run.
Organic food does benefit some people who are particularly sensitive to certain foods. The food in the market is generally safe. There is more testing of conventional foods than organic. Although you may be using organic inputs, unless you are making your own compost, and know what is going into the source material, or testing it yourself, it is not generally regularly tested commercially. Neither is testing required on a regular or batch basis even though it is known that compost analysis will vary from batch to batch depending on the inputs.
Organic food is not more nutritious than conventional. That is based on science. What matters most is eating a variety of fruits and vegetables and more of them.
Supplements are another story. Nature does not concentrate anything. If you have to take a supplement because you are not eating a food or are a vegetarian by choice then you may be missing out on something. I don't think there is anything natural about concentrated supplements.
How animals are raised does matter. Breeding for more fat or size, hormones, and the choice of feed does affect the final product. Grass finished meat is shown to have less fat and the quality of fat that is there is better than animals kept in a feedlot and fed a lot of grain to bulk them up. The quality and taste of the meat is different and it depends on what is important to you in the end.