Community Garden Weed Pulling

[AnnaIkona]

My two daughters have recently shown lots of interest in gardening, so we rented a small 240 square feet garden at a local community garden for just $80 a year.
The garden is so far just some grass and weeds. (As seen in attachments), but a plastic table, chair and compost bin are left. (Yay!)

And the soil is so thick, that it's not soil but just solid clay stuff. (Maybe not clay but solid soil?) And it has so much weeds!!!
How would you suggest we pull 'em out? And is the soil okay to use to grow our crops in?

I was thinking of shoveling ths soil to turn it into small pieces and make it more dirt like, and then pull out the weeds.
What do you think?

[imafan26]

I would pull the weeds first. It depends on your weeds, some weeds can resprout from a node so want to make sure nothing gets left behind. It may take more than one day to get all the weeds out. Weed seeds will sprout in a week or two.
If it is a community garden then someone may have amended it but you can always add more compost and aged manure.


You want to plant something before the weeds take over again, but I would keep watering and pulling the weeds until nothing comes up first otherwise you will still be weeding between the plants which can be a lot harder. After you get your plants started mulch heavily to keep the weeds from coming back.

Talk to the other gardeners about what is good to plant there and ask them how bad the theft is. Most community gardens get raided regularly. It is best to plant things a little unusual so they don't know what it is or be prepared to share.

Congratulations on your new garden.

[rainbowgardener]

You were right about clay. Many places have soils with a high proportion of clay.

Eventually you want to chop it up (turn it with a garden fork/shovel and chop it some, then chop it finer with a hoe). That will be many hours of work. Or you can borrow a light rototiller and do your 240 sq ft in a few minutes.

But note "eventually." Be careful not to turn, hoe, chop, or especially till, clay soils when they are wet. The turn into big hard clods that are very hard to do anything about. It may stay that way all season.

[applestar]

Bees love those flowers It's a mustard-type and could become seed crop of kale, for example. What do the leaves look like?

[imafan26]

It could also be one of the Asian mustards.

[AnnaIkona]

Thank you everyone!
At first I thought the flowers were weeds so I thought of pullin' 'em out, but once I noticed the bee on it, I decided to keep it as it is a good way to attract bees to polinate my veggies. And now you guys said that it's not a weed, I'm DEFINATELY keeping it!

Anywho, thank you Rainbowgardener for the idea of using a rototiller. Maybe I'll ask some neighbors if they have one.

I'll post some pics if the soil tomorrow when we start working on the soil.

[AnnaIkona]

How should I make my rock hard, clay soil soften? I will consider rototiller but I don't think any of my neighbors have one and plus whIle I use it all the sandy particles will probably fly all over the place and disturb some gardeners.

And using a hoe and shovel would be HARD work. The soil is so hard that I can't even put a shovel in it.
I'm guessing this garden in the community garden centre hasn't been used for years!!!

Any ideas?

[imafan26]

If the soil is dry, you could rent a rototiller to do the job. I would not use a hoe on hard soil but a shovel will work, so will a pick. Adding compost will help with the soil tilth. If you are not in a hurry to plant you could use a cover crop to break up the soil first. Daikon and fodder beets have been used to break up hard soil. Gypsum will make clay soil much easier to dig but you should get a soil test to make sure you need it. Gypsum works best in saline sodic soils.
https://www.garden.org/ediblelandscaping ... 101-how-to

[Taiji]

I was thinking to be sure if you have a heavy clay soil or not, (in your first post you said maybe clay or something rock hard) maybe take a handful of the soil, put it into a quart jar of water, shake it up, "dissolve" it and let it settle. Then, you could see a general proportion of sand, to clay and silt according to how the soil settles in the jar. (sand on the bottom, silt in middle, clay on top)

I have dug in some soils that had a surprising amount of sand with clay, but were still rock hard. What I'm getting at is that if it isn't as heavy with clay as you might think, you might then be able to water it pretty well, then pull the weeds out more easily with it wet without turning the soil into those impenetrable clods.

I have built with adobe here in AZ, and the soil in the jar of water test usually gives a good indication as to whether you have a good adobe soil or not! Could help with a garden soil test too! Just a thought.

[AnnaIkona]

Today we spent 5 hours and shoveled half of our 240 ft community garden! we just ruffled up the soil (with the weeds still in it) with a shovel and will remove all the weeds later on.

[applestar]

If you don't have one, invest in a garden / spade / digging fork -- four triangular tines with a stepping rim across the top. I prefer D-handle because I stand on it and the D-handle provides a secure grip, but DH has a straight handle because he prefers to stab with it like he is throwing a spear, then steps on it with his one foot (be sure you are wearing boots or shoes with re-inforced instep).

You don't have to actually dig, just get the tines in the ground all the way (I stand and balance on it, then rock from side to side), then tilt to fracture and lift the soil, then straighten and pull out.

[AnnaIkona]

So today I visited the garden, 5 days after we "plowed" It. Back then we decided to just break up the soil and then once it dries up to remove the weeds. But turns out that once the soil is dried, the weeds are even harder to pull now

So we decided to somehow try to pull the weeds out for half of the garden and the other half we will cover it with a plastic covering and leave it on for the rest of the summer for all the weeds to "mulch out".

Do you think that's a good idea?

[imafan26]

Actually you only have to cover the soil with cardboard or plywood, an old carpet, or black plastic sheet for a couple of weeks to kill the top of the weeds. Then you remove the cover and water well to sprout the seeds that were not killed, cover it up and repeat. A good cover needs to sit tightly against the ground so no light gets in. I have a piece of sheet metal roofing that is about 2 ft wide and 8 ft long that I move around to kill weeds on my path. I have used black plastic and weed block but they tend to lift unless you put a board on the top and pin the edges down. The old carpet works best since it covers a big area and it is heavy enough to stay close to the ground. Cardboard and newspaper worked but it was hard for me to put it down and wet it down fast enough to keep the wind from blowing it around. I put cardboard under the weedblock for insurance.

[AnnaIkona]

Is it two weeks covered and then water and them cover them again for two weeks? And how many times should I do that?

Maybe I'll do that, and since it will take a while and the process might go into summer, maybe I'll start all the stuff I wanna grow indoors so that when all the weeds are gone I just tarnspant all of them.

[ButterflyLady29]

A huge drawback to all the hard work and waiting is that you paid to USE the garden spot, not to let it set while you try to make the soil workable.
A tiller won't throw dirt all over the place. It just mixes where the tines touch the ground. You won't disturb anyone unless they are only a couple feet away. If possible rent or borrow a tiller and chop it all up. You can't turn grassy hard soil into loose garden soil without heavy machinery or a lot of manual work combined with a lot of time. Till then remove weeds and weed roots, till again. Plant and mulch heavily with cardboard and/or newspaper weighed down with wood chips, compost, straw, grass, or some other organic material.

[AnnaIkona]

Thank you, ButterflyLady29! I think I will do it your way. We're going over to the garden tomorrow evening, so we'll see how it goes then.

[Mr green]

The problem with tilling and removing the weeds is that you remove alot of the soils fertility as compared to previous mentioned method. If you have money for the ammendments needed it will work, but its not very sustainable also alot of micronutrients oxidise right into the air when using this method.

"A majority of the microbes in the soil exist under starvation conditions and thus they tend to be in a dormant state, especially in tilled soils." quoted from ohio state university here: https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16

[ButterflyLady29]

The mulch will replace those carbon materials. If the op can use the same plot next year it will be better than this year. It takes a lot of time and material to get rock hard soil to the point where you don't have to use a lot of muscle to break it up. I had a plot where I didn't need to till, just pull material back and plant. But when the soil is unworkable and the clock is already ticking you do the best you can with what you have. If they had got the plot in the fall and had all winter to kill off the weeds then I would recommend the layering/weed suffocation method.

[imafan26]

To weed with a carpet you repeat the process until you don't really see many weeds popping up. I reread my previous post, I may not have been clear. Water the plot and get the weeds growing, then cover it with the carpet, not water and cover right away. I usually water daily for about 2 weeks to bring up the weeds and then cover it with the carpet for another 10-14 days. When you look under the carpet you can see how dead the weeds are. I like them brown and shriveled not just yellow and juicy. Remove the carpet. You should be able to rake most of the dead tops away. Use the garden fork to poke holes in the soil so the water will penetrate deeper and water until the weeds sprout in 7-14 days. They really come up on their own after a big rain. Regular watering might also help with the hard soil. It might be hard because it is dry. As the water penetrates deeper into the soil it sometimes helps to loosen it up. It is actually easier to pull weeds when clay is wet, you just don't want to work it wet or it ruins the structure of the soil and you end up with rock hard clods that take a while to fix.

A roto tiller will till the soil well but again do not do it when it is wet. I have a mantis which is more like a cultivator than a tiller. The smaller machine cannot plow through weeds, it winds around the tines and causes a mess. Neither machine will kill perennial weeds, weed seeds or weeds that only need a node to propagate. The tines at best will only get the top 4-6 inches, if you have hard pan below, it will still be hardpan. The weight of the heavier machine also tends to pack the subsoil further.

[AnnaIkona]

We have just broke down the soil, and belive it or not, it looks like normal soil now! free of weeds and large clumps. It is still clay-ish, but its better.

All we have left to do is mix in some (composted?) cow manure into the soil.

Since some of the seeds we want to plant in the garden are far too tiny, we will use seed tape. Hope it works!!!

[Lindsaylew82]

It'll work!

Best of luck! Happy gardening! We've been considering making our own seed tape with TP!!! Can't wait to give it a try this fall!

[AnnaIkona]

It'll work!

Best of luck! Happy gardening! We've been considering making our own seed tape with TP!!! Can't wait to give it a try this fall!

Yup, give it a try! I've got my fingers crossed for the tape I made to work.

Has any one out there had any success with diy seed tape?

[Lindsaylew82]

I seem to remember a thread. Lemme go look!

[AnnaIkona]

So, now the soil is workable and looks amazing!

20160502_184727-320x180.jpg (30.63 KiB) Viewed 3652 times

However, someone above mentioned that clay soil should not be watered before working on it. Does this mean that I can't water it even after it has been broken down?
It's just that I've noticed that after the soil is rained on, it hardens even more, so I am scared to see it become hard again.

I am also planning on mixing some cow or horse manure into it. Do you think the manure has to be composted?

[Lindsaylew82]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEES!

When we were rookies, in PA, we had Our first garden as a couple, at our in laws house. FIL got us a load of horse manure from the girls school that he worked. It was beautiful stuff! Not composted. We grew every freakin kind of grain there ever was in horse feed. Next year, we had a great garden!

I would just add some roughage. Something to lighten the soil a bit.

[AnnaIkona]

What is roughage? Sorry, never heard of it before
My husband found someone offering 40lb bags of semi-composted horse manure for 2 bucks a bag. I know manure should be free, but I can't find any anywhere.

[Lindsaylew82]

You could call around to local dairy farms or horse farms. We've never added manure into our currents garden. It had cotton seed meal put into it about 30 years ago.

Roughage= chunkies. I'm partial to chopped leaves and straw. If you can find someone who bales up their grass each year, sometimes they can't get rid of it, and it spoils. THAT IS PRIME STUFF!!! We add all our grass clipping as well. You could call some lawn services. Maybe they can drop off to you instead of drop off to a landfill.

[AnnaIkona]

Hey folks,
We called a local Beef Farmer and she said she's be more than happy if I came and picked up some cow manure for our community garden, to add to our clay soil. We are going there tomorrow in full gear: old attic jeans, boots, gloves 'n shovels and plenty of heavy-duty garbage bags for filling them with manure.

Someone suggested that I just added the fresh (or maybe a couple week old) manure to the soil and mix it in. Would this work? Would I be able to plant in this "soil/manure" mixture?
Someone said that mushroom manure may "burn" the plants a bit, but is fresh cow manure okay?

Any help and or advice is very appreciated!

[imafan26]

You don't want fresh cow manure unless you are not planning to eat anything out of the garden for at least 120 days. Fresh manure should be composted first. You don't need a lot of manure, what you need is compost. You want to get 4-6 inches of well aged compost laid down adn then about an inch of composted (not fresh) manure all of that worked into the top 6-8 inches of soil. Compost will improve soil tilth and retain water.
this is a link to composting classes and resources in Brittish Columbia.
https://www.compost.bc.ca/resources/

Clay soils should not be worked wet. You can water it but work it when it is friable (crumbly) not sticky and wet or you will get a lot of clods that take a while to iron out.

[applestar]

Cow manure -- someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but cow manure is loose and liquid unless you are picking up "patties" from a dry field where the moisture from the pile had soaked into the dry soil. I'm thinking more like trash cans or storage tubs lined with bags. Does your community garden have shared compost piles? You could start some new piles with the cow patties you get could be composted along with all the garden waste -- these will be the GREENS -- nitrogen rich ingredients. Need to gather BROWNS -- carbon rich ingredients -- next. With good C:N ratio and diligent turning, you would have at least partly composted piles in 120 days.

If you have access to a cattle or dairy farm, what you *might* want to ask is if they are willing to part with the empty protein/molasses/mineral tubs. Bug tubs that are great for container growing big crops like tomatoes and squash, even corn. I want some, but haven't figured out if there are any sources around here, and I would need to "borrow" a pick up truck. (Some of you know my DH has one but won't let me use it for stuff like this )

Hah, you could put the cow patties IN the tubs and bring them both back.

[AnnaIkona]

Yup, you folks are right about adding fresh manure to the garden... https://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/4 ... /fresh.htm

I was thinking of maybe reserving a small space in the garden (maybe 10 square ft?) and mixing just that little bit of soil with the manure. Then I'd cover it up with a plastic covering, so that it acts as a compost bin. After the summer has past, and fall arrives, I'll take the covering off and distribute the "composted" manure throughout the rest of the garden bed.

Does this sound like a good idea?

For now, as I do need something to fertelize the garden with, I suppose I'll go get the bagged composted manure that I was talking about earlier. The bags are 40lb and are just two bucks, so I'm guessing it's not that bad. I'll need about 10 bags wich would cost $20. Do you folks think that 10x 40lb bags is enough for 240 square feet?

[AnnaIkona]

We went to the beef farm for the manure (which we thought was fresh) and discovered that the manure was covered for over 3 years with a plastic sheet! So we got two big garbage bags of it. We sprinkled it all over the soil. So far so good.

[imafan26]

If the manure is aged it should be better, but hot composting is best. Manure will heat up a pile, but don't you need to add browns to it too?

[DigIt16]

Yes it is unfortunate that it is that hard because hard/clay soil tillers can be expensive. Maybe look into rental prices if needed.

[AnnaIkona]

Yeah both renting and buying one is pretty expensive. So we are trying to do this all by ourselves (fingers crossed that this works )!

We ordered a blend of 1 yard of composted chicken manure, 1 yard of garden soil (peat moss, sand, compost, regular soil) and 1 yard of single screened soil. We are hoping mixing this with the clay soil that we have right now will help make the clay soil a bit better. (Fingers crossed for this too!!)

[Lindsaylew82]

You're digging this stuff in by hand? I think next time you do your mixing, you should dig in (or till) some chopped leaves or some straw that's been run over with the lawn mower. That will definitely improve tilth! Break up some of this lumpiness and clods of mud.

[AnnaIkona]

We (okay maybe my husband did ) have built a border around the garden, and we are so, so ready to wheel bulk-bought 2 square yards of Garden mix and 1 sqaure yard of Chicken Manure. We will pile the soil on top of the soil we have now.

Since it is a community garden, some gardeners have mentioned that people pick flowers and veggies off of the gardens even though it isn't theirs! so we will build a "fence" out of chicken wire all around. I think the wire will serve two purposes:
*prevent people from stealing what we will grow
*to let cukes vine up the wire

[Lindsaylew82]

I hope the garden next/behind yours keeps all those wild flowers and weeds up and growing! I see some really nice beneficial insect attractants out there!

[AnnaIkona]

Oh yup! The lady who has that garden has so much flowers (I even think there is nothing other than flowers there! ) in her garden. And so many bees always buzz around! She's been gardening there for over 8 years, so I don't think she's planning on leaving an time soon!

[AnnaIkona]

Today, the soil arrived! 2 sqaure yards of Garden mix and 1 square yard of composted chicken manure. The soil looks so rich that I didn't even mind paying the total which came to $120

We loaded all the soil onto our community garden and turned out, we had 2 large garbage bags of soil left over!!! Yay!

Next day, I'll post a pic or two of how our daughters planted all the veggies.