Screw organic

[applestar]

That's a very good point @Free Zucchini

I was trying to weed around the cabbages today and had to work on other areas every time the yellow jackets came back to patrol the cabbages -- I don't know if it was the same one or more than one but they came back at regular intervals -- I would say at least a dozen times while I was in that bed for say 1 hour? (The bed needed thorough weeding around cabbages and onions, culling of spent peas, then mulching)

We had a nice rhythm going in which I would work around the cabbages until a wasp came back, then step away and work on another part of the bed until she finished and flew off, then I would go back to the cabbages.... Then a lone paper wasp showed up and disrupted our little dance.

I had decided to cull two little cabbages that were not growing as well and had cut at soil level, removed the yellowed and ragged leaves, and laid the harvestable remaining immature heads off to the side. The wasps noticed they were missing and flew around until they found them, then crawled and patrolled those leaves, too.

Over In another bed, there was a 4th instar (almost fully grown) black swallowtail caterpillar on a 2nd year celeriac root in bloom (it had eaten an entire flower stalk) -- and right in front of me there ensued a battle when a yellow jacket attacked it. The caterpillar stuck out its stinky orange horns and fought back. The wasp seemed to give up and flew off-- I really thought it was already too big for the wasp to take it on... But only 10 minutes or so later the caterpillar was missing, so it may have been taken after all. But I don't think it would have lived anyway because it had a telltale bruise on its head -- I think it was already infested by parasitic wasp or tachnid fly larvae.

[pepperhead212]

Though I don't do it specifically for these types of bugs, I cover my brassicas and lettuces when I first plant them with a light Agribon, to keep them safe from rabbits! I sprinkle with a generous dose of sluggo, as slugs are my worst pest, after rabbits, then plant and cover, sealing the edges on one side entirely with soil, then along the other side with anything available! I check them out about three weeks later, maybe harvesting a few early ones, then cover again, and uncover for good when the fabric is being pushed up. When I uncover for good, there may be a few holes here and there, but, for the most part, they are clean as can be, and I don't have a problem the rest of the season (I won't really notice if a rabbit takes a bite or two at this point!). If the pests you have are coming up out of the ground as with slugs, this will not help, but if it is caterpillars, it will help greatly. Maybe try half covered and half uncovered?

[rainbowgardener]

It can be tough. Last year my brassicas got hammered, but it was my first year. Sometimes when we change the biome we need to give the parasites a free pass so that the predators can react to the new crop of parasites, just like the parasites responded to a change in the flora.

I agree - it's what I meant by balance and applestar meant by transitional. When you are starting new gardens and after you have wiped out all the beneficials with "just once" Sevin dust, then it takes awhile for everything to come back in to balance.

Work with planting stuff to attract/keep beneficials and with creating habitat and next year should be better and the year after better still. The idea of the bird feeders is that many birds eat mostly insects, grubs etc in summer. But in winter, with limited supply of those, they switch to seeds. You want to keep them in your garden for the next year, so you need to feed them. It's another e.g. of "habitat." My yard is National Wildlife Federation certified "backyard wildlife habitat." You can check out their website https://www.nwf.org/how-to-help/garden-f ... ite_Main_3 for how to do this - it is part of what I am talking about, about creating an ecosystem.

[ucan]

Don I have a couple ideas .. a horse trough NEXT TO THE GARDEN with SOME flat head minnows.. They love bugs .. And the fry are easy to sell also..

I would think if you put a add in the paper that your wanting males duck the drakes
you would get them for free as most people have to many drakes per the amout of ducks they have. Drakes also cant quake loud at all ,, so they would not bother the neighbors and they love insets stink bugs are like candy to them .. you could propably even rent some for a few dollar or so a month and give them back after the growing season..

[imafan26]

Be careful with birds ducks or chickens are really good at getting rid of snails and slugs but they also have a penchant for munching on lettuce seedlings too. That is why the chicken tractors work, but you have to have the space for them.

[InvasiveCreeper]

Synthetic chemical gardening can be fun

[applestar]

...especially the second picture.

[StevePots]

The second picture is from Breaking Bad - Gardening edition.

[skelts39]

Have been looking around in this forum quite a bit and just wanted to add that I really appreciate all the specific information people are leaving for OP. Lots of good points, I'm glad I read it.

[rabbiavero]

Dude. Organic gardening is NOT a walk in the park. It is NOT a sow, sit back and relax, and reap the benefits kind of hobby. Organic farming and gardening is A LOT of work. But, the result in the end if done right is healthy, large, and extraordinarily tasty fruits, veggies, and herbs. Last season (2015), I spent 4 weeks at the very beginning of spring hand tilling my 5 gardens, covering a total of .5 acres. I do not own a rototiller, nor any other tools besides my shovels, rakes, and hand tillers. I spent 7 hours a day for 4 weeks preparing the ground to plant. And that was just the beginning. People who want to grow organic do so because they want quality in their product. But, they are also willing to bust their a** to get it. Gardening is NOT something to get into to relax, but it is most certainly worth the effort and work.

[rainbowgardener]

Well, there are lots of different philosophies about gardening, even within the big tent called organic gardening.

You might want to try reading Ruth Stout's No Work Gardening books. It can be work getting started with organic gardening, building your soil to a point where it is rich and loose, building compost piles, etc. But practicing no-till, keep everything heavily mulched, natural gardening methods, planting a diversity of flowers and herbs to attract beneficial insects, etc., after the first few years, it really can be next to no work. I had a community garden plot, that I worked on some at the beginning of each season getting the soil ready, adding more compost, planting, mulching, etc. After that I mostly only visited it a couple times a month, to harvest things. I would pull the few weeds that made it through the mulch, add more mulch to make up for what was breaking down, water deeply and harvest and not see it again for awhile.

Half acre of actual garden space is a lot and it would be a lot of work at the beginning of the season. But I think you could cut down on the amount of work with no-till methods and borrowing some permaculture ideas. One of those is to let more of your crops go to seed. They can seed themselves and come up on their own next year. Grow lots of perennial stuff (asparagus, strawberries, rhubarb, etc). Leave some of your potatoes and onions in the ground and they will multiply themselves. Keeping a thick layer of mulch on your whole garden at all times, nearly eliminates weeding and watering (at least in the humid rainy climates where I have gardened).

[ButterflyLady29]

Safer works only when applied directly to the insect in question. It doesn't work on cucumber or bean beetles. I've had serious problems with spotted bean beetles eating my cucumber flowers (and yes they are spotted bean beetles and yes they eat cucumber flowers, despite what all the stuff on the internet says. Mine don't read stuff on the net.). The only thing that works is going out early every morning before the dew dries and knocking the bugs into a bucket of soapy water. Later in the day and they fly before hitting the water.

I have had good Japanese beetle control by hanging traps far away from the garden and making sure the beetles caught in the trap are smashed or drowned. You won't see many results the first year but it sure affects future populations. Supposedly yellow four o'clock flowers attract the adults which then eat the plants which are supposedly poisonous to them. Note the emphasis on supposedly. I haven't tried the yellow flowered ones. I had a bunch of pink ones growing near my butterfly bush in the front over the summer and never saw any Japanese beetles in that area. Come to think of it I never saw any in the whole front yard last summer. June bugs were another story. I had tons of grubs in my flower pots. They ate the roots of many plants. I ended up having to dump the pots and sift through the soil to pick the grubs out.

Organic gardening isn't easy and there is a learning curve. I believe the benefits are worth the effort. I've spent many morning hand picking grubs and slugs and knocking beetles into soapy water. We're not permitted to have livestock here but if we could I would have a couple ducks just to eat some of the bugs. But I have watched the resident wrens picking through the cabbages and seen wasps gleaning sawfly and asparagus beetle larva off my plants.

Wasps are great larva predators but they have to be left alone to do their work. If you have a "kill all wasps" attitude you are eliminating your best organic pest control. Unfortunately the wasps take a lot of pretty butterfly caterpillars but that's just the way nature works. I've seen them take Monarch caterpillars in addition to the sawfly larva. Songbirds are good pest control also. Most of the seed eating species feed insects and spiders to their young. If you make your garden area appealing to birds and wasps you will definitely gain some great garden helpers.

[Gary350]

Is there any type vegetable garden that is NOT organic? As a gardener it is a learning experience to learn what you can grow in your geographical location. Some plants attract lots of bugs while other plants have few bugs. I don't plant things I don't eat. I don't plant things that require lots of space. I don't plant things like cabbage that are so cheap at the grocery store it is a waste of time to grow. I always grow tomatoes you can not buy good tomatoes at the store. I have 25 bird houses, birds are my best friend I never spray for bugs, I don't have bugs the birds eat the bugs..

[imafan26]

I plant cole crops but not many. Last year was the only time the cabbage worm found it. I treated it early and I think the geckos helped eat them because they did very little damage. Right now I have broccoli and Brussels sprouts in the garden. I had a little damage but I think they were from snails since I have not seen any cabbage butterflies. I do have dipel ready if I do.

When I lived on the ravine, I had locusts that came and ate everything to the ground and the leaf footed bugs were everywhere. I could only hold them at bay with netting. I built a frame with pvc and put the netting over it. It has to be well sealed at the bottom to keep the bugs from crawling under. It worked as long as I could keep the bugs outside. Everyday, I was squashing leaf footed bugs hanging on the netting.

However, I have not had an aphid problem in years except on one weak kale which was pulled out sicne I have so many flowering nectar plants to attract the beneficial insects and I don't use pesticides except as a last resort. I do get the nuisance spittle bugs and I have to move my peppers so the pepper weevils won't ruin my peppers. Fruit has to be picked before the birds get to them. I haven't seen a caterpillar but I did see a butterfly this year.

I disbudded the buddleia. I will have to find a new home for it since I don't want to attract butterflies to the vegetable garden.

There are mice in the garden, but we have a deal, they stay out of the sluggo and my patio and I don't put out rat poison.

For now, I think the snails and slugs are in hybernation because it is cold, but I know they will be back, so I am just enjoying the respite for now. I have fruit fly traps out year round and don't have much of a problem there. The anoles must be eating the roaches and beetles as well as the earthworms and caterpillars because there are hardly any around in the garden. My cat takes care of the roaches in the house. The greenhouse frogs are eating the ants and while the frogs were an accidental import that came in on some plants, they are making an impact on the ant population. I have seen geckos on the screens catching gnats, mosquitoes and termites and I have a lot of anoles and skinks all over the yard.

I have a few holes in the beans from rose beetles but not too much damage and the beans will be coming out soon. They don't bother the roses in the back yard. Those things are bullet proof. I do treat Mr. Lincoln for fungal problems and blackspot, but I haven't had that much beetle damage there either. I have no overripe fruit so there are no Asian beetles around.

What I am trying to say I guess is that if you notice what the pests are going after and you stop planting it for a while, use some protection like netting, the bugs will go after an easier target, or plant to attract beneficial insects. If you have the right habitat to nurture predators, they will take care of the problem for you and you only have to resort to chemical controls as a last resort. I get a lot of snails, I have to bait every two weeks to keep them at bay as well as go on daily snail hunts because I don't have good predators. Actually a chicken would work, but they would eat the plants too. Now, if you could train a chicken??????

[aaronv]

I'm glad I read this, thanks everyone.

Question.

Suppose I want to not only bomb my yard with ladybugs and lacewings - I want them to take up residence. Supposedly this means planting a wide variety of white, yellow, orange, and magenta flowers in addition to my vegetable garden?

I always avoided planting flower beds because to me they did not seem to serve a purpose. But if there is a way to control pests and minimize crop damage without spraying, well, there's my purpose.

I guess veering off into discussion of how to plant flowerbeds for attracting insects, well that's a bit off topic.

[applestar]

...ummm -- just a bit ... You might find your answers in thIs thread Subject: Beneficial Insects

Here's how it starts out

I guess the crux of organic gardening is the ever battle with insect herbivory in your garden. (Especially your vegetable Garden) Anyway, here is an excellent website that uses Apple Orchards as the example but, has information that can be applied to any garden:

https://www.earthworksboston.org/urbanor ... icials.htm <<broken link

Here's a link to an archived copy of the old web page that Opa had linked to.

This is a REALLY cool site, opabinia.

...

[imafan26]

I you pick the right vegetables it is easier. Insects and disease attack unhealthy plants first because they are weaker. If you select plants and cultivars that are best for your location and you keep them healthy they do not make good targets. If you have a robust garden patrol, they can keep bugs from invading.

I have whiteflies, but they like the hibiscus the most, so I use it as a sentry and trap plant...that way they leave the peppers alone and I hose down the undersides of the pepper leaves every time I water.

I plant corn because it attracts purple lady bugs and they really like white flies. I also like corn even though it takes up a lot of space in my small garden.

Choosing the right combination of plants helps in controlling bugs too. A trap plant, a plant that attracts beneficial insects, and choosing the best cultivar that will stay healthier.