Susan W
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Organic? or sorta

Organic can have several meanings, and as more people testing the waters may need some clarification, sorta.
There is Organic, strict, from seed to soil to any chemicals. (fertilizer, pest control etc)
Organic, more general, widely accepted. This would be sustainable, no harsh chemicals.

Of course to sell organically grown need certified, strict guidelines. If growing for yourself/family can go with more sustainable, or any direction you want.

I am not here to judge, pass comments, just laying it out.

imafan26
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I think a lot of people do not understand organic.

Organic inputs come from a once living source and can be plant or animal in origin, or can be a naturally occurring or allowed synthetic substance (like a mineral that may have been mined, synthetic, or manufactured. I.e. potassium sulfate (mined), bat guano (mined), gypsum (mined), zinc sulfate (allowed synthetic), magnesium sulfate (allowed synthetic), newspaper (allowed),elemental sulfur (allowed synthetic, vit B1,C, E (allowed synthetic), copper sulfate (manufactured), boric acid (synthetic), alcohol (manufactured)

Renewable, or sustainable...not always. Peat moss is organic, it is literally dead ferns from a peat bog. It is renewable naturally, yes. but it is not sustainable in the way it is currently being harvested. Peat bogs increase 1/4 inch a year and it is mined at 2 ft a year.

Many people believe that organic means no pesticides are used. NOT TRUE. Organic farmers use a lot of pesticides more frequently, they are just more limited by what they are allowed to use. Organic pesticides are still toxic, or they would not kill anything.

For something to be labeled certified organic, it needs to be certified and have met the requirement for certification. Some things can be grown organically, but if it is not certified, can't really be designated as organic officially unless they are legally exempt.

Most people have no clue what GMO really means.

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/FST-56.pdf

Mr green
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If synthetic fertilizer is organic then everything must be considered organic. Even GMO and Round Up... Its good with these regulations no doubt but I think they are still much too loose.

Just to make an example natural vitamin C is great for your body no one can say other than that, while its synthetic relative ascorbic acid is cancerogenic. On the "surface" they look the same.

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applestar
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Have you ever read the agricultural recommendation publications available from most university department of agriculture extensions for commercial farming? They generally start with "fumigating" the soil for fungal and insect pests and general herbicidal purposes, treating the seeds, then soil turning/churning preparations, chemical fertilizers, and sowing. Once the crop plants are up and growing, several times during growth, more insecticides, fungicides, and pre-emergent herbicides.... All the way up to as close as allowed for harvest.

...I read about but am not familiar with potato farming practice where they kill the upper foliage rather than waiting for natural die off so there will be an even maturing of the tubers, then the harvested tubers are stored for over SIX MONTHS so the residue of the herbicide will dissipate to human consumption "allowable" levels (I hope I'm not repeating a myth here -- it sounds too awful to be believed).

...but yes, transitioning from that kind of "norm" I think organic agricultural practices has a wide range of acceptable "organic" fungicide, herbicide, pesticide usage. And gardeners new to organic gardening will inevitably be overwhelmed by the marketing propaganda -- that you NEED to use this and that and other thing to grow plants and food crops, and wishing for *organic* alternative, will reach for what is considered "equivalent" without realizing there is an entirely different paradigm.

When you are outsourcing some of the growing materials, there's little you can do to control the level of "organic" quality of the "imported" goods.... But complete self sufficiency requires a certain amount of land and involves more than just growing plants -- people who are getting into "homesteading" with acreage might have that option. Living in a less than 1/2 acre development with restrictive residential "zoning" would prohibit even keeping chickens or ducks... (Or bees though that's not really germaine to this discussion).

It's also inevitable that even when you really really want to be chemical free and toxin free, there are some environmental influences that you can't overcome unless you can move to some -probably non-existent considering what they are finding in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and arctic ice- pristine area.

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rainbowgardener
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Ascorbic acid is carcinogenic is a very strong blanket claim. The reality is much more complex. Reading the literature is made more complicated, because they don't always make a distinction between synthetic ascorbic acid and natural ascorbic acid in food. (Vitamin C IS ascorbic acid, which is not to say there aren't differences between taking synthetic ascorbic acid in pills and eating natural ascorbic acid in foods where it is accompanied by bioflavonoids and lots of other substances.)

The role of ascorbic acid in carcinogenesis.

The Carcinogenic Potency Database (CPDB) is a unique and widely used international resource of the results of 6540 chronic, long-term animal cancer tests . Their studies in rats and mice found no connection between l-Ascorbic acid and tumors. https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cpdb/chempage ... 0ACID.html

No evidence of carcinogenicity for L-ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in rodents. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6512885
Carcinogenesis studies of L-ascorbic acid were conducted by offering diets containing 0, 25,000 or 50,000 ppm L-ascorbic acid to groups of 50 F344/N rats and 50 B6C3F1 mice of each sex for 103 wk. Survival of dosed and control female rats and of dosed and control female mice were comparable. Survival of high-dose male rats was slightly greater than that of the controls, whereas survival of high-dose male mice was significantly greater than that of the controls. There was no observed differences in neoplasms between treated and control groups . In female rats, several lesions usually seen in aged animals showed a dose-related decline. Under the conditions of these studies, L-ascorbic acid given at 2.5% or 5.0% in the diet for 103 wk was not toxic or carcinogenic for male and female F344/N rats or for male and female B6C3F1 mice
J Toxicol Environ Health. 1984;14(4):605-9. [Note that in in this study of synthetic ascorbic acid it was actually protective with higher survival rates and slower aging. ]


L-ascorbic acid is an essential dietary vitamin in humans, primates and certain mammals and is endogenously synthesised in some species. Epidemiological and ecological studies have shown that L-ascorbic acid has a protective effect against cancer, in particular non-hormone-dependent malignancies, such as oropharyngeal neoplasms. Experimental in vivo and in vitro studies, however, have yielded more controversial results, suggesting that the effects of L-ascorbic acid are dose- and perhaps, time-dependent with different effects depending on the species or organ studied.
Oral Dis. 1998 Jun;4(2):120-9.
The role of ascorbic acid in oral cancer and carcinogenesis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9680901

Vitamin C's anti-cancer effects may be compromised by fat
Vitamin C may raise the level of carcinogens in the stomach rather than lower them as previously thought, UK chemists have found using a new model that for the first time includes the vitamin's interactions with fat.

Vitamin C or ascorbic acid secreted in gastric juice was thought to protect the stomach from cancer by suppressing the formation of carcinogens called nitrosamines. Taking supplements or eating a vitamin C rich meal can boost its level in the stomach, but clinical studies have shown little evidence that vitamin C pills help to stave off cancer.

Now, Kenneth McColl and co-workers at the University of Glasgow have shown that in the presence of fat the vitamin can lead to more - not fewer - cancer-causing molecules being produced.
While the results demonstrate the principle, it's difficult to say exactly how closely this mimics what is happening in the stomach, McColl told Chemistry World. For example, it is very difficult to measure the relative concentrations of amines dissolved in the lipid and in the stomach acid in a real stomach Royal Society of Chemistry https://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ ... 090701.asp

Even trying to study it in natural situations is difficult since humans and many animals can produce Vitamin C in their own bodies, so effects of administered synthetic ascorbic acid is hard to sort out from effects of naturally produced ascorbic acid in the body. They are identical compounds and cannot be differentiated. Effects vary depending on dosage, timing, organs studied, presence or absence of other dietary substances such as fats, etc.

Would you care to cite any actual evidence for your statement that ascorbic acid is carcinogenic?

It's just silly to suggest that anyone would consider Round-Up as organic.

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rainbowgardener
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Meanwhile, back to the topic....

I think that we are really talking about three different models of gardening farming, not two (organic or not):

What we tend to call conventional/ traditional, but has only become "traditional" in my lifetime, since WWII. I call it chemical gardening: Gardening in monocultures ( a field that is all one crop, e.g. corn), plowing/tilling, synthetic fertilizers, chemical herbicides and pesticides.

Organic gardening (especially commercial organic farming)- Probably still monocultures, probably still plowed/ tilled, uses things like compost / manure/ compost tea instead of synthetic fertilizers, uses hand weeding or things like vinegar, citrus for herbicide, Bt and things like garlic-pepper spray for pesticides, no synthetic herbicides and pesticides.

What I call ecological/ natural gardening, related to things like permaculture and biodynamic gardening: No monocultures, very diverse plantings, no tilling, composting in the field, mainly using only what comes from the field and mulch and cover crops, companion planting, trap crops, interplanting, relying on beneficial insects, use of birds, toads, ducks etc to control pest populations, chicken tractors for fertilization...

So the chemical gardener sees the pest and reaches for some kind of poison spray. The organic gardener sees the pest and reaches for something like Bt spray. The ecological gardener sees the pest and tries to figure out how to adapt the garden ecology to keep everything in balance, and probably doesn't spray anything except water.

Of course most of us exist somewhere along this continuum and are not perfectly any one 100% of the time!

What I work towards being is the natural, sustainable gardener. I try to garden as much as I can in a closed loop - where the only thing that goes into the garden is what came off the property, compost, compost tea, mulch, including wood chips I grind from my own downed branches, etc. I buy the materials for my homemade potting soil (mushroom compost, rice hulls, coconut coir, all sustainably produced) for seed starting. Otherwise, I buy pretty much nothing but seeds and sometimes started plants and trees. I work towards making my tiny patch as close to an actual functioning ecosystem as I can.

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applestar
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That's a great way of differentiating those concepts, rainbowgardener :D

...I think I was headed that way but maybe didn't complete my thoughts or make them clear.... :>

Mr green
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Yes thats quite spot on rainbowgardener! Natural gardening would be a great term for what I am practicing.

Ive burnt the papers long time ago, but if I get time over to search for information might to it. Also you must know that companies like Monsanto for example owns Pfizer so gets obvious they make money out of sick people.

Another problem with the "scientific" community is that it is not very scientific at all. Monsanto payed scientists to make a study that shows their corn aint cancerogenic. Thats how science work they get payed before hand to make certain results, thats how their funded, not very trustworthy all the time. If they would have shown the opposite they will be without funds. Thats the sad truth and doesnt take much own research to find for your selfs that is how it works.

I can remove my claims if source is needed until I find if I ever will thats no problem for me.
And if someone wants to eat synthetic vitamins instead of real ones thats fine by me, but to think that it is equally good is not very sound thinking in my humble opinion.

And I'm sorry if step on anyones toes but these subjects really irritates me because the general public are being lied to on purpose to protect commercial interests.

Susan W
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This is a good discussion.
Style of gardening, like everything else, can't be put into strict categories, but more generalized.

We also need to be mindful that it isn't 'My way or the Hiway' approach. This is especially true as I see it, if one has developed a multi-step system with equipment, space and time, may not be the approach for a beginner who wants a few tomatoes, peppers and herbs, and works full time and/or has limited space.

And perhaps most important, like other things, keep growing and morphing.

I may be more aware of the discussion than some as I am at the farmers market, have a few plants. People who don't have a garden, very limited space and time, asking questions. Words and phrases are so prevalent in the media we are bombarded, and then confused. We certainly are face to face with the whole question here on the board as new people ask and want to do the right thing.

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I like the way you put it Rainbow. There is actually so much propaganda attached to the words organic and conventional, I don't think the average lay person really understands what they mean.

I think most Vitamin C is manufactured now, but acerola was once the commercial source of Vitamin C. I think if everyone ate one acerola a day, they would get their daily Vit C dose, they would pee the excess since it is a water soluble vitamin, and have little cancer risk. Unless you like things that are really sour. It really is hard to even eat just one. BTW the birds love them and will strip the trees of ripe ones if they are not netted. It is only when a "natural" source is concentrated artificially and people consume concentrated doses that exceed what the body needs, on a regular basis, that causes most of the health risks.

To clarify, synthetic fertilizers for the most part are not considered organic. There are allowable synthetics, mined and manufactured substances that are approved for organic use and meet national organic standards and are OMRI approved. Most of the things on the list are sometimes necessary and cannot readily be obtained organically in reasonable quantities. Example: Plants needs minerals too, and if the minerals are not naturally occurring in the soil in sufficient quantities, they are mined and added.

Even approved organics can be environmentally devastating and unethical as greed seems to be the driving force. Bat guano created the island republic of Nauru. Organic enthusiasts touted this product, but few realize that this island was mined until the rock phosphate was exhausted, the strip mining caused serious environmental damage and the once richest per capita country in the world has sunk into insolvency. Synthetic fertilizers are criticized for the environmentally harmful way they are manufactured (BTW synthetic urea is manufactured cleanly, the byproduct is water, it does however, use large quantities of natural gas to produce), or their effects on the soil microbia, but organically acceptable products can still be harmful in the way they are obtained or mined (bat guano, peat moss, azomite).

The truth is that organics require a lot of inputs, just as conventional fields do. What is taken out of the soil needs to be replaced. Most commercial farms and even organic farms by harvesting fruit, leaves, and roots remove nutrients and minerals from the system. Even permaculture and organic farms that use bio-intensive farming methods still remove more than they can replace without more inputs coming from somewhere else. It is still robbing Peter to pay Paul, at some point Peter will be impoverished and Paul will still want more.

Recycling as much of the nutrients back where they came from, is the most responsible thing to do. Using renewable and sustainable inputs is the ethical thing to do. We live in a world that is getting smaller every day. Whatever is added to make a field richer in one part of the world, makes another part poorer for what was taken from it.

Conversely, concentrating herds of animals into small spaces, over application of fertilizers beyond what is necessary either organic or conventional also causes environmental damage from runoff. Even organic and sustainable animal farms are not natural. Nature would not have spread out the animals over a much larger area, they would not have to have feed brought in because the land could not support enough grazing, and their wastes would have been spread out too.

Composting, tilling in crop residues, green manures and balancing the crops (less monoculture), incorporating permaculture principles, preserving open space and wild places, allowing beneficial insects to control pests as much as possible and being aware, and using all inputs wisely and responsibly to maximize their benefit and minimize their waste.

I like the idea of natural gardening. But most of us still do not practice that, I think permaculture comes the closest to natural gardening as they do try to recycle all their inputs and the goal is to not have to bring inputs in from outside the system.

Most people still have limited space and put in more plants than nature would have decreed. Because of the compactness of the space and the fact that chemicals (nutrients,minerals, carbon, etc) are removed by harvesting; additional inputs , composts, "organic fertilizers" or synthetics (if you are not 100% organic) are needed to replace what was lost and some of that comes from outside the system. Pest and disease becomes more of a problem when plants are put closer together and disease and pest pressure builds as time goes by and we plant the same things over and over again. Providing space for wildlife and beneficial insects by planting for nature, nectar and pollinator plants, using water and other "natural resources" wisely, and reducing the use of toxins organic or synthetic helps to try to move the balance more back toward the middle.

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ElizabethB
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TMI

My old, tired brain is completely boggled.

I like to keep it simple. I practice SFG for my vegetables and herbs. I use MM for my planting medium - make my own. In the yard I do apply 8-8-8 around the Satsuma twice yearly - mid February and early May. The back lawn gets treated with ammonium nitrate 2 or 3 times each year. It is seriously nitrogen deficient.

The garden boxes are amended twice each year with home made compost. I do have a soil test done at least every 2 years for nutrients and pathogens. Occasionally I need to add nitrogen if my compost is not rich enough. Using SFG makes it easy to hand weed.

There are exceptions. If Fire/Red Ants decide to reside in my garden the Ortho comes out. My feet are still swollen and covered with pustules from a fire ant encounter over a week ago. Screw organic - when it comes to those monsters the big guns come out ie poison.

I need to get off of the computer and into the yard.

Later all.

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rainbowgardener
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Wonderful post, imafan!

We all need to be more thoughtful in what we do. Where did this (fertilizer, mulch, herbicide, or whatever you are using) come from? How is it made? Where does it end up? What are the consequences of using this and is it worth it? What are the alternatives?

Maybe you will still decide to use it. I still occasionally use very small amounts of RoundUp painted on to the poison ivy stems, because I am so allergic to the stuff. I can't get near it to dig it out or anything. But at least you will have an idea of what you are actually doing and why.

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applestar
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I think it's all about delving further for information and not let the marketing and sales (and politicians) spoon feed you. The more you look around, the more you might say "Wow, I DID NOT know that." And stop mindlessly reaching for the nearest most conveniently available "product".

I'm in love - enchanted - with the idea of having a lot of the work taken care of by the experts. And by experts I mean critters that have evolved to do the very specific thing you as a gardener want done.

So I love seeing the ground spiders, already scattering every time I disturb the mulch and dead grass. It won't be long before the ground will be warm enought that I'll start seeing "worm signs" -- little tiny mounds of earthworm and nightcrawler castings.

Blackbirds and grackles are back as are robins and they are turning over the mulch. Grackles especially like to flick the leaves and mulch along the sides of the beds and take snails and hopefully slugs, too. As for slugs, all the fireflies I saw last summer evenings and the little pink shrimp-like firfly pupae In the ground should mean their larvae are feeding well on the slug eggs and baby slugs in the soil.

I mentioned elsewhere that my compost pile is waking up and I'm going to move it and plant onions and greens where the bin stood for the winter. The pile will cook more quickly for the moving and turning and will enrich the next bed for planting. (I decided THIS is my answer to not being able to have a "Chicken Tractor" in my suburban garden). :wink:

...this has nothing to do with the topic, really, but yesterday morning, DH and I had a mutual rant after seeing an ad for Krill-based Omega-3 supplement. WHY? ugh.

Mr green
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That was a very good read, very good post imafan!

And many of you others I admire the way your thinking.

Susan W
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Great discussion! Agreed a natural system is ideal, but difficult to attain, especially in small areas. And being in town have limitations of space and materials, livestock etc. Like many others I depend on bagged stuff and added fertilizers, and always morphing in the mixes.

For the large containers, trying for a natural living soil web, and in part successful. Both those and the in ground areas take time to work and build. As I'm finally finishing up the number crunching, have marked only $115 for fertilizer and chemicals for 2014. Most of that is Alaska fish and Johns Recipe, and some Epsoma Tone product. Well, there is a jug of ready to spray Round-up for the poison Ivy.

Getting good mixes in the ground and containers means less watering. We have a long hot summer, and just a few of the smaller (10-12") pots need spot water 2 times/week. The others go a week if no rain. Having over 50" rain does help to keep things green.

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I think as responsible gardeners we need to try to malama the aina (love the land), do our best to keep the soil and the environment as healthy as possible. Live and work with nature, not against it. Try to add only what is needed and return most of it back where it came from. Try to leave the smallest carbon footprint that is possible, and make the most use out of the things we grow and use. Share with others who actually appreciate it, and if we do have to bring in stuff from the outside, be aware of where it came from; make the best use of it, and recycle everything you can.



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