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rainbowgardener
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Re: Please read before you spray poisons! INFO

You are right that RoundUp being glyphosate + surfactants and other "inert ingredients" is significantly more toxic than glyphosate alone. And you are also right about the shikimic acid pathway. It is on that basis that RoundUp was initially touted as the ideal herbicide, toxic to plants and harmless to animals. But that turns out not to be totally true. It is a complex bioactive molecule and biosystems are complex, so there is more than one mode of action. And there are lots of ways animals can be affected.

For example: " its broad spectrum of herbicidal activity has led to the destruction of habitats and food sources for some birds and amphibians leading to population reductions(25). The Houston toad is an extreme case in that it is now an endangered species due to destruction of its habitat by glyphosate(26)." also " Fish and aquatic invertebrates are more sensitive to glyphosate and its formulations. Its toxicity is increased with higher water temperatures and pH. Some soil invertebrates including springtails, mites and isopods are also adversely affected by glyphosate. Of nine herbicides tested for their toxicity to soil microorganisms, glyphosate was found to be the second most toxic to a range of bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and yeasts(27). However, while glyphosate alone has low toxicity, the formulation of glyphosate with the surfactant polyoxyethylene amine (POEA), which is widely used, is significantly more toxic." https://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/glyphosa.htm

One reason that glyphosate can cause sub-lethal problems in animals including humans, even though we don't have the shikimic acid pathway is that many microbes do have it. So the glyphosate is disruptive to beneficial gut bacteria and others. This may be key to understanding how it causes harm in both humans and animals.

The bacteria in your body outnumber your cells by 10 to 1. For every cell in your body, you have 10 microbes of various kinds, and all of them have the shikimate pathway, so they will all respond to the presence of glyphosate!

Glyphosate causes extreme disruption of the microbe’s function and lifecycle. Glyphosate appears to preferentially affect beneficial bacteria, allowing pathogens to overgrow and take over.

"Celiac disease, and, more generally, gluten intolerance, is a growing problem worldwide, but especially in North America and Europe, where an estimated 5% of the population now suffers from it. .. Here, we propose that glyphosate, the active ingredient in the herbicide, Roundup®, is the most important causal factor in this epidemic. ..Celiac disease is associated with imbalances in gut bacteria that can be fully explained by the known effects of glyphosate on gut bacteria. Characteristics of celiac disease point to impairment in many cytochrome P450 enzymes.. Glyphosate is known to inhibit cytochrome P450 enzymes. Deficiencies in iron, cobalt, molybdenum, copper and other rare metals associated with celiac disease can be attributed to glyphosate's strong ability to chelate these elements. Deficiencies in tryptophan, tyrosine, methionine and selenomethionine associated with celiac disease match glyphosate's known depletion of these amino acids."

Interdiscip Toxicol. Dec 2013; 6(4): 159–184.

Published online Dec 2013. doi: 10.2478/intox-2013-0026
Glyphosate, pathways to modern diseases II: Celiac sprue and gluten intolerance https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/

also Glyphosate’s Suppression of Cytochrome P450 Enzymes and Amino Acid Biosynthesis by the Gut Microbiome: Pathways to Modern Diseases Entropy 2013, 15(4), 1416-1463; doi:10.3390/e15041416 https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416
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rainbowgardener
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More update on RoundUp

Now that billions of pounds of RoundUp have been sprayed on our environment, we are finding out more about its many and complex effects.

"Glyphosate, the controversial main ingredient in Monsanto’s Roundup and other herbicides, is being connected to Lake Erie’s troubling algae blooms, which has fouled drinking water and suffocated and killed marine life in recent years." https://ecowatch.com/2016/07/05/monsanto ... gae-bloom/ Algae "blooms" (i.e. massive overgrowths of algae at the expense of everything else) have long been known to be related to excess phosphorus. In the mid 1960's algae blooms were becoming a huge problem, many of the nation's rivers and lakes were rapidly turning green and choking with aquatic plant growth. The US had only fairly recently switched from mostly soap based laundry products to mostly detergent based with phosphates.

"By the late 1960s, nearly 10,000 public lakes had been affected by excessive nutrient enrichment by human activities (ReVelle and ReVelle 1988). Lake Erie's deteriorating condition was of particular concern, and it had been said that it had aged 15,000 years in the last 50 (Congressional Report HR 91-1004 April 14, 1970). The approximately 20,000 lbs of phosphorus per day going into the lake resulted in about a 2,600 square-mile area of the lake with no oxygen within ten feet of the bottom (Beeton 1971). As of 1967, mats of attached algae covered Lake Erie's shoreline, and desirable fish such as whitefish, blue pike and walleye had either severely declined or disappeared altogether (Congressional Report HR 91-1004 April 14, 1970)"
https://www.colorado.edu/conflict/full_t ... /94-54.htm

The detergent industry resisted change, denied the importance of laundry phosphates, tried to minimize its role in eutrophication process (death of lakes through excess nutrients), sued various governmental agencies to prevent enforcement of regulations, etc. (Any of this sound like familiar patterns?) Despite all this, in 1994 there was a nationwide ban on phosphates in laundry detergents (but not dishwasher detergents). Since then the algae blooms had been reduced.

But in the past decade Lake Erie blooms have increased at record levels, according to the U.S. EPA and are expected to become more common due to warmer temperatures and heavy rainfall that feed algae growth. It also appears to be related to continually increasing use of RoundUp, which is a phosphonate. (Any salt or ester of a phosphonic acid) In February this year, the U.S. and Canada announced a goal to reduce the amount of phosphorus entering affected areas of Lake Erie by a total of 40 percent by 2025.

"Phosphorus has long been known to act as fuel to blue-green algae, and efforts in the 1970s reduced harmful algal blooms and nuisance algae by limited phosphorus loading in the Lake Erie watershed. However, the last 15 years have seen an increase in the growth of the toxic blooms, contributing to an ever bigger Dead Zone in the lake’s Central Basin and massive fish kills each summer." https://ohioseagrant.osu.edu/news/2009/ ... mful-algal These researchers found glyphosate in Lake Erie at peak farming application times, particularly in the spring. It turns out that many cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) present in Lake Erie have the genes allowing the uptake of phosphonates, and these cyanobacteria can grow using glyphosate and other phosphonates as a sole source of phosphorus,” Bullerjahn says.

Here's what algae bloom looks like:
dead-fish-algal-bloom-.jpg
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rainbowgardener
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Re: Please read before you spray poisons! INFO

Another RoundUp update:

"Monsanto suffered a major blow with a jury ruling that the company was liable for a terminally ill man’s cancer, awarding him $289m in damages.

Dewayne Johnson, a 46-year-old former groundskeeper, won a huge victory in the landmark case on Friday, with the jury determining that Monsanto’s Roundup weedkiller caused his cancer and that the corporation failed to warn him of the health hazards from exposure. The jury further found that Monsanto “acted with malice or oppression”.

Johnson’s lawyers argued over the course of a month-long trial in San Francisco that Monsanto had “fought science” for years and targeted academics who spoke up about possible health risks of the herbicide product. Johnson was the first person to take the agrochemical corporation to trial over allegations that the chemical sold under the brand Roundup causes cancer. ...We were finally able to show the jury the secret, internal Monsanto documents proving that Monsanto has known for decades that ... Roundup could cause cancer,” https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... son-ruling

Note that Johnson was a groundskeeper, who probably was exposed to RoundUp most every day for years. That does not mean that the average homeowner who uses it once a year is at risk. Still it is further information.
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applestar
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Re: Please read before you spray poisons! INFO

rainbowgardener wrote:
Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Some soil invertebrates including springtails, mites and isopods are also adversely affected by glyphosate. Of nine herbicides tested for their toxicity to soil microorganisms, glyphosate was found to be the second most toxic to a range of bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and yeasts(27).
How Rain Evolved Its Distinct Scent—and Why Animals and Humans Love It — Smithsonian Magazine

https://apple.news/AfoWSjfb3Sdyi_G9F4knWbg

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180974692/
these organisms evolved alongside one another to form a symbiotic relationship. Streptomyces uses geosmin to ring the dinner bell for hungry springtails, which eat the bacteria, and in return the arthropods spread the bacteria’s spores far and wide.

...these bacteria specifically prefer springtails to convey their spores. Of the myriad compounds produced by Streptomyces, many are deadly to fungi, insects and nematodes. Springtails [...] possess enzymes capable of coping with the many chemical cocktails of Streptomyces

[...] “So, these small primitive animals have become important in completing the lifecycle of the Streptomyces, one of the most important sources of antibiotics known to science.”
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imafan26
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Re: Please read before you spray poisons! INFO

Glyphosate effects a phosphate pathway that only exists in plants and some microorganisms. So it is true some micro organisms are affected. For the most part mammals, most micro organisms, invertebrates, birds, and fish are minimal. Glyphosate binds tightly with soil and is broken down by micro organisms in the soil. Glyphosate in water does last longer and can be bound in soil carried in the water. It has been determined by science and many studies that glyphosate has low to no carcinogenic potential when used in accordance with the label.

Glyphosate is one of the safest and weakest non-selective herbicides that breaks down relatively fast. You do have to pay attention to what it added to it as the other components that enhance the effects may be the real problem. Other non-intentional or otherwise issues are that when glyphosate kills non-selectively or selectively, it does affect the food chain for other life forms that feed on those plants.

Personally, wiping out weed hosts of white flies are not a bad thing or getting rid of tansy which can kill goats isn't either. These things are hard to control when there is a lot of it. Killing nectar plants for butterflies and bees are plus minus. I try not to kill nectar plants I can control because I don't mind the bees coming around. I do mind the butterflies because the caterpillars cause a lot of damage to my plants if I don't eliminate nectar sources that attract them. Unfortunately the best sources for bees and butterflies are weeds.

If the weeds were easy to get rid of by just cutting them off, I would do that, but some weeds have deep roots and digging them out is not an option. Any piece left behind grows back. I am too far behind on invasive weeds to be able to keep up with them without using herbicides. I don't like to use diquat or triclovir unless I really have to because they are even more toxic.

https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/archive/glyphotech.html
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_se ... Sep-93.pdf
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