caters
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New Gardener I am

I have grown maples for 3 years and 1 of them had an injury to the bark but it did not go into that growing part so it could heal itself and it did. However I haven't grown fruits or veggies or herbs or grains and I want to grow all those since my mom and I are pretending to be on this new earth. I found out the minimum distance between plants for the standard grown from seed fruits and veggies and here they are:
Apple: 30 ft
Orange: 25 ft
Lemon and Lime: 8 ft
Blueberry: 5 ft
Raspberry: 2 ft
Blackberry: 4 ft
Strawberry: 1 ft
Cherry: 10 ft(this works for both sweet and sour)
Grape: 6 ft
Asparagus, cabbage, broccoli, and cucumber: 1 ft
beets: 5 in
green beans, leeks, and sweet potato: 6 in
carrots, garlic, and shallots: 4 in
cauliflower and eggplant: 1.5 ft
celery and peppers: 10 in
corn and lettuce: 8 in
onion: 2 in
peas and radishes: 1 in
potato: I don't know, perhaps same as sweet potato
pumpkin: 16 in
tomato: 15 in

Now I have a few questions.
1) What are the minimum distances between plants of these herbs and grains:
Herbs:
Thyme
Oregano
Basil
Parsley
Mint
Grains:
Oats
Wheat
2) My momma and I want a bountiful harvest of all of these so what is the minimum number of plants of each type I need?

3)Do I even need to take the maximum into consideration?

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Meatburner
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Re: New Gardener I am

Please please please go back to your profile and put in your zone and/or general location. That is so important for anyone to try to help. Also, where did you get the information on planting spacing? How big of an area do you have space for a garden? Not quite sure what your quote, "I want to grow all those since my mom and I are pretending to be on this new earth." means either. Is your post being translated? Just trying to be helpful.

caters
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Location: Hardiness Zone 7, Memphis, Tennesee

Re: New Gardener I am

For the fruits I got the minimum spacing online.

For the veggies I got it from an organic gardening book.

My sentence isn't being translated.

Because of how my momma and I are pretending to be on New Earth it means we have to grow our own food and we want a bountiful harvest. We have a lot of area. I don't know exactly how much but I am more concerned about spacing and yeild than the area we have.

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Meatburner
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Re: New Gardener I am

Where in zone 5 are you located? It makes a big difference in order to address your questions. Growing oranges in zone 5 might be a challenge so what is your plan to do that? Just curious.

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Meatburner
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Re: New Gardener I am


imafan26
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Re: New Gardener I am

The easiest book to get for growing compactly a lot of vegetables is Square foot gardening. This site explains it and does have minimum seed spacing guidelines.

https://www.suwanee.com/pdfs/Square%20Fo ... 031610.pdf

If self sufficiency is your goal and you have a lot of space. Consider including some permaculture techniques.
https://www.growveg.com/growguides.aspx

To be self sufficient you cannot do this in a day or even a year. You will have to learn a lot of things and there will be trial and error.

Start small and work your way up.

Permaculture design always takes into consideration your environment which it why it is important to know your zone and more importantly, your microclimate. If you are marooned on an island, and had to survive, you would have to work with what is there. Look around you, what is native and edible, what do your neighbors plant that do well. Ask them about how they grow things.

To be the most self sufficient you want to take advantage of your terrain and natural resources. Do you have access to water. How can you use water more efficiently and not waste any.
Learn about aquaculture. Water from fish tanks feed vegetable beds and are recycled back to the fish, and you have fish to eat as well. Learn all you can before you start any project.

https://backyardaquaponics.com/Travis/Aq ... _Guide.pdf

Chickens, goats and beneficial insects are important adjuncts to a permaculture design. You definitely need the beneficial insects but chickens or goats provide meat and eggs for self sufficiency and

Chickens eat bugs, provide manure to enrich the soil
goats: Will eat weeds and leftovers, but they should get grain too.

Before you include the animals in the system you would need to learn about what how to take care of them and keep them out of the garden.

You would also have to provide grains like corn, oats, rye for them as well as for yourself.

Fish need fish food.

To attract beneficials you will need to plant host plants. The best host plants will be the flowering plants like alyssum, marigolds, sunflowers, lavender, and herbs in flower like basil, borage, fennel, dill. You would need to preserve habitat for them as well.

Beekeeping: Bees are necessary to polinate some vegetables like squash and pumpkins. Bees are on the decline so you may consider the need for an apiary. You would have to learn about this too before you start.

Bees will need to have a steady supply of nectar plants for forage. The hives need to be managed to protect them from varoa mites and hive beetles and to keep them healthy. In winter, you would have to provide a food source for them so they will not starve.

Start small and add on as you learn more. Start with a plan

Choose a site for the vegetable garden that is close to the house for easy access and close to a water source. Make your garden as self sufficient as possible. Recycle water from the roof (rain barrels) and recyle all the water you can inside the home.

Start a compost pile from kitchen vegetable scraps and garden residues.

If you don't want to spend all day watering. Put in an irrigation system, preferably drip, which will waste much less water.

Choose what you like to eat, but choose what grows well in your area and if you are a beginner, leave the challenges for later. To get the biggest return from the garden select plants that will give you a long harvest. Collards, kale, swiss chard and herbs give you long harvests as well as eggplant and tomatoes.
You can get a lot of produce from zucchini, and squashes even though they have a relatively short production time. Learn to preserve and freeze for later.

Squash, sweet potatoes, peas also have edible shoots so finding plants that give you more than one crop extends the harvest.

Herbs add flavor but also attract some pollinators and repel some bugs and are good plant companions
https://www.organicgardening.com/learn-a ... n-planting

You will find that living on EarthII is not so easy after all. There is a lot more involved than just planting a few vegetables and fruit trees. It can be fun as well as rewarding to work toward a self sufficiency goal.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

caters
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Location: Hardiness Zone 7, Memphis, Tennesee

Re: New Gardener I am

I was thinking "How many can I have per square foot given the minimum spacing between plants and the row spacing" so I was kind of thinking on the side of square foot gardening. I was also thinking about planting all the seeds at once and doing what I need to do to some plants like pick the blossoms off of the blueberry and blackberry bushes, and grapvines. in Zone 5 there is no last frost after march 21 so that means that oranges are going to be easier to grow than they would in ohio for example which is in Zone 4 I think. Besides they are trees, how could they get damage from the cold when it is like 40 degrees or 20 degrees? My maples survive that. All trees have bark as a defense against things like the cold so why wouldn't my oranges survive it or would but decrease the yeild?

Susan W
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Re: New Gardener I am

Memphis is zone 7. (last frost about mid April)
I applaud your ideas to want to grow all your own food, but this will take time not only months and years to build up the garden/orchard, but everyday time. How much space do you have? What is there now? What part of town are you in? Given our climate and rainfall, one could grow much of food eaten, and with orchard space some fruit. Citrus doesn't do. Another big question is have you or your Mom had a garden?

I suggest breaking this project down into workable parts. Start on the small side and grow as you can.
Have fun!
Susan

caters
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Location: Hardiness Zone 7, Memphis, Tennesee

Re: New Gardener I am

I looked at a last frost map of tennesse and in memphis that is in the 3rd week of march and in ohio it is mid april. Yes my mom has had a garden. I have lots of space. I want to grow citrus because I love oranges and lemonade and limeade and want to have my own citrus instead of having to buy them from the store.

imafan26
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Re: New Gardener I am

If none of your close neighbors are growing citrus, it may not be possible unless you keep them in pots and have a greenhouse or are going to move them indoors when it gets too cold. Only some citrus varieties will even tolerate near freezing temps.

As for planting everything in the garden all at one time. That may not be the best idea. It is better to only plant as much lettuce you can eat in a one or two week period and then succession plant to get a steady supply. If you plant a whole packet of lettuce and cannot eat a twenty foot row in time, it all becomes compost. If you plant too many things that mature about the same time, you will be loaded with a lot of produce that has to be eaten, frozen, canned or preserved. It is better to space plantings so you will have something fresh to eat for a longer time. That means planning when to plant, how much and knowing how long the harvest will last.

This is a guide for Iowa but it will give you an idea on when to plant and harvest things. If you get Mel's book the New Square Foot Garden or even the older version, it has a similar planting calendar for each listed vegetable.

https://store.extension.iastate.edu/Pro ... f%E2%80%8E
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

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Meatburner
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Location: SW MO zone 6b

Re: New Gardener I am

caters, what do you think about the advise you have been given so far? Has it been informative to your zone and ambitions? We all really want to help fellow gardeners from experienced to novice. Interested in your thoughts about the follow up posts to your initial post. Wishing you the best garden ever!

caters
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Location: Hardiness Zone 7, Memphis, Tennesee

Re: New Gardener I am

It has been informative. So has the advice on other forums.

I really don't want to have to go to the store just to get citrus when the rest I get from my home garden.

Okay I can see why now. I want a bountiful harvest of all of the things I will be planting.

I do have chickens, cows, and pigs.

When is it best to get the meat from them? I mean I was thinking when they naturally die but what if they naturally die because of a disease that got into them via natural processes?

On the New Earth there are more of each species than on the Old Earth and so I don't think the bees there are too much of a worry.

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!potatoes!
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Re: New Gardener I am

there are some citrus that are fairly hardy, but no oranges, limes, or lemons that will survive in your area outside. maybe. even hardier citrus like yuzu and trifoliate orange (be warned in advance - does not taste like orange) usually aren't rated better than zone 6. no, i don't think your oranges would survive it, let alone yield. tropical trees have bark, too, but most can't handle freezing AT ALL.

you should not have to remove flowers from blackberries.

also, waiting for animals to naturally die will ensure you have the toughest, stringiest meat possible, and depending on when and where they go, might not much salvageable anyway. chickens grown mainly for meat are usually harvested at 9-12 weeks old. pigs and cows can at least be mature.

imafan26
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Re: New Gardener I am

Pigs can be slaughtered at 3 mos of age or younger if you want sucklings. Most of the time it is by weight 100-150 pounds. You would only keep breeding stock longer.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

caters
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Re: New Gardener I am

They say to remove flowers from blackberries and blueberries during the first year to strengthen the plants. Same for the grapes. Than after that 1 year you don't do it for the blackberries and after 2 years you don't do it for blueberries and grapes. Also I have heard a lot on when to pick the raspberries and some say "Oh fine in the first year just not as flavorful" and some say "Wait until the second year when you pick the blackberries." Does it like depend on the type of raspberry? Is that why I am hearing these 2 things for picking raspberries?

Practically every fruit I am planting is a perennial and perennials don't have a lot of flavor at the beginning but get more and more flavor each year.

And yes I know tropical trees are used to that temperature range of 45-100+ degrees
But Why wouldn't they survive colder temperatures than 40-45 degrees?

I mean for example apples trees are used to ohio temperatures. So What? They perfectly survive in both hot and cold places. Why isn't it the same for citrus?

Also I like citrus so much and I don't know if I can have a 20-40 ft tall greenhouse because I am planting standard size oranges, lemons, and limes from their seeds. I mean I think that having no room to grow new roots in a pot is worse than the trees being in the cold.

imafan26
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Re: New Gardener I am

Citrus are native to Australia, Burma, S.E. Asia. and some parts of southern China. These are places that are in a more temperate zone. You can grow some citrus varieties but they must be the ones that are cold hardy. Not all citrus are created equal.

https://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/crops/az1222.pdf
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

caters
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Re: New Gardener I am

Well that narrows it down out of the hundreds of types of oranges, lemons, and limes.

Susan W
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Re: New Gardener I am

OK lets talk garden and gardening. People have been cultivating for, well since forever. What and how cultivated depends much on climate and geography. Duh! On a day to day basis, people garden whether a few flowers, herbs and patio tomatoes or stuff in the ground, large family size plot or larger and have produce to sell. All have a common thread of growing the flowers/herbs/produce.

This can be studied in books and the 'puter. Or just digging in the dirt. Most find a combination of books/net, what others do and own experience works (or not!). If you check through some of the threads and messages on this board, you see a wide range of agendas, time alotments, goals (a few flowers or ton of veggies), not to mention geography.

A gardener, be it a few flower pots to the larger family farm is always learning. This is one of the main challenges that keeps one going. Also mother nature doesn't always get the memo on temps and rainfall.

You can't learn gardening from a book. Books, assist, but getting hands dirty is key. Trial and error. Being grateful when something does well, and know there will be failures. Saying thanks to those who offer suggestions (can follow or not at your discretion!!)

Now a real question, caters. What have you put in for your early garden? (greens, spinach, broccoli, radish etc)
Next, what part of town or outlying area are you? (I'm midtown)
Have fun!
Susan

caters
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Re: New Gardener I am

I am in the more farmland part of the city and I have about 5 acres of land for my garden. I also have a lot of sugar maples. The rest of my space is taken up by pasture and what will be things to make maple syrup and maple sugar, pure water, food such as cheese, and flour from the wheat. And of course there is a house and it is right in the center of my property.

A lot I am going to be planting outdoors in march but some I will plant indoors in january or febuary and some I won't plant until april or may. Others I will have 3 or 4 plantings in intervals of 3-4 weeks until june or july. Some I might plant in the fall such as garlic.

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Meatburner
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Re: New Gardener I am

As a new gardener, you apparently know what to do. I would suggest planting at least one acre of oranges, and other citrus in your zone and definitely planting everything all at one time. I bet it will work out fantastic for you. Give it a try and let us know how it works out.

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