New to gardening! Help with my first attempt PLEASE

[Greens]

Hi

So I'm starting my first garden this year and was planning on growing 3 different vegetables in a 10'x10'x2' plot. What I actually did was dug 2'x2'x2' holes in rows of 3 with 2' spacing between each hole (if you can visualize that...may take pictures tomorrow if it would help everyone here). The vegetables I chose are tomatoes, cucumber and either carrots or green bell peppers (which of the latter would be better in my garden?). Earlier tonight, I planted the Celeb. Hybrid tomato seeds in plastic Solo cups with peat and some EWC. This is what I was planning on using as my starter mix (should I be adding any fertilizer to my starter mix?). I plan to grow the Celebs. under fluorescent light for the first month then transplanting outside around May 10th. Thats also when I plan on sowing the cucumber and, as mentioned above, either carrot or green bell seeds straight into the ground.

...phew...

Anyways, so far it's been an experience starting my first garden and I've only just begun. Please if there is anyone out there who would be willing to help me out it would be much appreciated I'm looking for advice in almost every department here so don't be afraid to ask away!

[ReptileAddiction]

It would be a lot of help if you gave us your location because gardening varies on your location.

As to what would grow better between carrots and bell peppers depends on your area. If you have hard rocky soil then carrots will not do well.

No you should not add fertilizer to your starter mix. Once you up pot the plants into a larger pot then you plant them in a mix that has fertilizer.

Goodluck!

[Greens]

Hey thanks for the quick reply Reptile!

I live in Lawrence, Indiana. A suburb east of Indy. Ground here is lots of clay. I have dug 2'x2'x2' holes in the ground though, removing the dirt and replacing with:

1/3 perlite
1/3 EWC
1/3 Topsoil

I also took all the fertilizer I bought and mixed into a bucket:

3 Cup of Garden Tone
3 Cup of Bat Guano
6 Cups of Kelp Meal
2 Cup of Fish Emulsion
3Cup of Lime

After tossing it around real good I added 3 cups of this mix to 3 of my holes. I was planning on doing this for the other six as well.

EDIT: Since ive got another month before the last frost, this will hopefully give the soil some time to cook

[ReptileAddiction]

Digging big holes like that is generally not recommended because it creates a bath tub like effect and doesn't drain. I would recommend going out and filling back up those holes and spreading whatever you want to mix in over the entire area then working it down in preferably by roto tilling it. I would mix in a lot of compost plus the amendments you listed before if you want. Btw what in the world is EWC? I have never heard that abbreviation before.

[cynthia_h]

EWC *may* refer to earthworm castings. If so, using it in a 1:1:1 mix with perlite and topsoil is a strong mix for organic gardening, since castings themselves are fairly intense (or, at least, thought of and treated in that way).

Agree with the "bathtub effect" by previous poster; designate walkways, maybe with string and small posts, then upgrade the soil where the plants will be placed.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[Greens]

Digging big holes like that is generally not recommended because it creates a bath tub like effect and doesn't drain. I would recommend going out and filling back up those holes and spreading whatever you want to mix in over the entire area then working it down in preferably by roto tilling it. I would mix in a lot of compost plus the amendments you listed before if you want. Btw what in the world is EWC? I have never heard that abbreviation before.

About the bathtub like effect...My the plot is located in an area where it receives a lot of direct sunlight. I'd say around 9 hours or so. I imagine it will be even more later in summer. Should I keep the holes in THIS case. Last year temps were soaring and there was a shortage of water. Maybe the bathtub effect could be a good thing? Also I havent added any vermiculate so water retention could be low.

[ReptileAddiction]

I still say no. You *almost* never want plants sitting in water which is what they would be doing. If you dig down to the bottom with a garden fork and put a bunch of holes in the bottom about a foot deep then it might help but the best way would be to rototill your beds.

[Greens]

alright well advice taken. Thanks.

On another note, I had a question about watering. Would it be alright to just setup a sprinkler system? I could turn it on every morning and let the sprinklers to their job for an hour or two. Also, What is potting up or up potting?

[Greens]

EWC *may* refer to earthworm castings. If so, using it in a 1:1:1 mix with perlite and topsoil is a strong mix for organic gardening, since castings themselves are fairly intense (or, at least, thought of and treated in that way).

Agree with the "bathtub effect" by previous poster; designate walkways, maybe with string and small posts, then upgrade the soil where the plants will be placed.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

By saying its a strong mix thats a good thing right? or is it a strong mix that would burn new plants?

[applestar]

2x2x2' deep? That sounds like a lot of work!
What did you do with all that clay soil you removed?

If it was indeed very clay, the sides of the holes were smoothed from the shovel, and the result after filling with the new mix is level with the rest of the ground rather than raised, then they could indeed be like water tight containers -- as if you buried tubs or buckets in that shape and filled with the soil mix.

Before filling them in, did you try filling the holes with water to see how well the water would seep out/drain? --- are you up to digging out of of the holes to try this?

If the holes fill up with and hold water, that would drive air out of the soil and drown the plant roots (they need air in soil). Another possible problem is that the plants will not grow their roots past the clay walls. Whenever you dig planting holes in clay soil, you want to make scratches in the side walls with a garden fork and also fracture the soil so that the roots will gain purchase into the surrounding soil rather than circling around.

Also, the fractures and fissures will allow the moisture to drain and fertilizer and compost to seep into the surrounding soil, enriching it and breaking down the clay structure so that eventually, the clay subsoil will be improved.

Before you commit the expensive fertilizer mix to the remaining holes, it's probably a good idea to make sure you don't need to modify the area. I'd like to try to think of a way to make this work. Luckily, it sounds like you have time to work it out before planting.

...referring to the "strong mix"...
I asked about the removed original clay soil -- especially the upper layers of better soil because I think you could mix that into the mixture you made of topsoil, EWC, and perlite to make 1:1:1:1 or 1/4 each mixture and still have good garden soil.

[imafan26]

I don't know about mixing all of the fertilizer. Especially lime. 3 cups of lime is a lot. Did you get a soil test? You should only add the fertilizer that you need.

If you are adding compost and earth worm castings, you may not need a whole lot of fertilizer but you may need time for to reap the benefit.

You can still over fertilize even with organic fertilizers. It can upset the balance in the soil and cause leaching as well.

10x10 is big enough but tomatoes take up a lot of space. Two feet between holes is o.k. if you are training tomatoes. Celebrity is a determinate so you really don't prune those as much as you would an indeterminate. I prefer more space for air circulation.

Cucumbers do fine on tomato cages. Carrots can grow between the rows.

And bell peppers on the south side.

How are you planning to get to the center of the bed to weed or harvest? Most people with 10x10 plots still have to have some way to get into the middle by pathways. If You have the space, make the bed longer but narrower. 4x25 if you can access it on all sides. It will end up being the same sq. ft. but easier to manage without having to step in the beds.

It would also be better to amend the entire garden area, rather than just the planting holes. As has already been mentioned, plants like a homogeneous soil. The roots will not really want to go out of the artificial pot you have created and into the surrounding soil. The soil with different compositions may not drain evenly. You also would not have to go down quite two feet.

A soil test would be a good place to start. Especially since it is a new garden.

Add compost and mix it well into the soil and apply the recommended amounts of fertilizer. You only lime if the test recommends liming. The soil test will give you organic recommendations if you ask for it.

There are other methods for creating vegetable beds that don't require so much digging, like lasagna gardens. You can find threads by using the search function.

You only need to water as much as the garden needs to be watered. If you add compost to the garden and mulch the top, water will be retained. Dig down a few inches or watch the plants. If they are not wilting they can go another day. Water deeply but infrequently to promote deep roots. Dig down in the soil about 3-4 inches, if the soil is moist after watering, you have watered enough. You don't need to water again until the soil is almost dry. How often that is depends on how big the plants are, time of year, rain, and the moisture holding capacity of the soil. Over watering kills more plants than under watering. It is better to use a drip or soaker system rather than overhead watering. You will waste less water and the tomatoes especially will have fewer problems with mildew.

[ReptileAddiction]

You are watering way to much. In your area you right now you should only be watering 1-2 times per week in containers. It is not that hot yet and you don't want them constantly wet.

[Greens]

2x2x2' deep? That sounds like a lot of work!
What did you do with all that clay soil you removed?

If it was indeed very clay, the sides of the holes were smoothed from the shovel, and the result after filling with the new mix is level with the rest of the ground rather than raised, then they could indeed be like water tight containers -- as if you buried tubs or buckets in that shape and filled with the soil mix.

Before filling them in, did you try filling the holes with water to see how well the water would seep out/drain? --- are you up to digging out of of the holes to try this?

If the holes fill up with and hold water, that would drive air out of the soil and drown the plant roots (they need air in soil). Another possible problem is that the plants will not grow their roots past the clay walls. Whenever you dig planting holes in clay soil, you want to make scratches in the side walls with a garden fork and also fracture the soil so that the roots will gain purchase into the surrounding soil rather than circling around.

Also, the fractures and fissures will allow the moisture to drain and fertilizer and compost to seep into the surrounding soil, enriching it and breaking down the clay structure so that eventually, the clay subsoil will be improved.

Before you commit the expensive fertilizer mix to the remaining holes, it's probably a good idea to make sure you don't need to modify the area. I'd like to try to think of a way to make this work. Luckily, it sounds like you have time to work it out before planting.

...referring to the "strong mix"...
I asked about the removed original clay soil -- especially the upper layers of better soil because I think you could mix that into the mixture you made of topsoil, EWC, and perlite to make 1:1:1:1 or 1/4 each mixture and still have good garden soil.

Earlier today I dug up all the holes again and set aside for now. I also used a garden fork in all the holes to help with drainage. There is draining happening but not very quick and a couple holes drain less then the others. Oh yeah and I sectioned off an area to throw all the clay so if I needed to use it again. Ive mixed some of the clay in with my mix to save on having to buy more top soil.

[bowhuntaz]

Given your situational challenges, you have essentially two choices. Raised beds or tilling a bunch of organic matter, gypsum, and sand into your existing soil.
Given that you're just getting yourself started, I would advocate raised beds for two reasons. First, easy to work with, and second, less maintenance.
You may want to look at a process called square foot gardening, which is pretty easy to start with and very simple to get good results from your first time out.
I've been down the hard pan clay infused concrete like soil route, and it gave Mr fits until I figured out what was happening.
Fifteen tons of manure, 200 pounds of gypsum, 2 tons of sand, and 6 hours of tilling got me a decent area to plant last year.
Can't say I want to ever repeat that endeavor in this lifetime.

[Susan W]

Glad you are starting a garden!
Now, the more difficult parts. Is this in your yard? community garden? If your yard will be checking fairly often.
Just sayin', if this were mine, which it isn't, and guessing long distance, and encouraging small successes before large failures....
I would dump bags of this and that on it and till, and that would till in your ultra enriched pits. This and that mostly organic. Compost, mushroom, cotton, manure, manure mix, whatever. If you don't have a tiller, surely have access to one, or can easily rent for a few hours.
Watering? after the babies are up and running, should only have to water about 2 x week if no rain. The organic matter will help moderate the soil in temp and moisture.

After adding stuff and tilling, the level will/should be raised. You can help contain that by edging with mulch such as shredded hardwood. In time that breaks down, and next season refresh.

[Greens]

Alright I now have all 11 holes dug. ive made some minor changes as far as what I'm growing and plan to act on some other changes ive made. Let me just list (hopefully in short) what I'm doing:

In the beginning I planned to get some bags of compost and manure, perlite, worm castings, peat, kelp meal, garden tone organic fertilizer, bat guano, and fish emulsion. I was to dig 11 holes and amend the existing clay (removing a little) and dig 2x2x2' holes, rows spaced 2' apart and refill ea. hole with the amended mix. Ive done this and the soil is cooking in the isolated holes (ive also punched in holes in the bottom and sides of ea hole with the fork end of a hammer before refilling). Now lets look at what I'm planning on growing:

Brandywine Pink tomatoes
Garden Sweet Hybrid cucumbers
Hot Peppers: Hot Salsa Mix...5 different variety pack

Those are my main 9 holes. 3 holes for ea veggie. The other 2 holes are for Ozark Strawberries (planted those today). The soil here was not amended quite as much.

I'm still considering tilling rows leaving my mix in the holes. Also I was thinking about staking some black plastic down through my 2' walkways to keep the grass from growing in the garden.

So...I'm sure ive missed something but I'm starting to relax knowing that a good chunk of the work is done. Been an exciting 3 days for sure but its not time to quit yet. What's everyone think and any suggestions, comments, or advice is always appreciated. (Again, I'm considering tilling rows. Ill need to rent one for a few hours, most likely from this local rental shop only a mile or two down the road. ) Thanks again for all the help so far. I'm hoping to learn more from all of you!

EDIT:Sorry, I forgot to take pics of my plot again today but I will make sure I do tomorrow...for anyone who was waiting for those

[imafan26]

Make sure that you put the trellis for the tomatoes and cucumbers in when you plant them.

Plant the tallest plants on the north side so they don't shade the smaller plants.

I hope you are skinny and have good balance. Two foot paths are a little tight but doable.

Mulching will preserve moisture and help control weeds.

You have done a lot of work. Frankly, instead of digging 2 ft holes, I would have just put everything in containers or raised beds. (It is what I do ). My soil is compacted clay too, it would take a jack hammer to get through it. When it rains, it is slip and slide and mud between the toes time. When it dries it is cracked and hard. When it is wet it sticks to everything.

[Greens]

Yes I am thin and great balance also sorry to hear you got clay too. I always thought it was tough but my dig wasnt nearly as stressful as I was thinking it was going to be. Maybe its because its early spring or something. Depending on how this goes, I may container everything next year (didnt realize that was a thing ). Got a question for ya...What are treils?

[Greens]

As promised here are some pics of what ive done so far. Not 100% done yet but very close. Also, I know only 2 strawberry plants wont yield much but we just wanted to try a fruit and thought strawberries would be nice

[Royiah]

A trellis is something you use to hold up your plants like a stake for tomato's and a fence of sorts for cucumbers and or vining plants. I used a chain linked fence for mine because I had a ton of spare stuff at my house. You can really use anything to hold them up just depends on what kind you want and for what plant.
You'll want to put the cucumbers on one end of your garden because they are probably going to be the largest of your plants. Mine went all the way up my trellis and fell over it and reached about halfway down before they died. And that was my first year growing them.
Tomato's will be the next tallest followed by the peppers and strawberries in that order. All of these plant are sun lovers so you want to make sure all of them get plenty of it. So sticking a tall plant in front of a short one wont be a very good idea.

[Greens]

ok I see. so I have setup these tomato cages for all my plants. I suppose these would be my trellis then. Hey, btw I noticed in your pics that those plants are real close together. Will you have issues with that later on? Ive had discussions on this thread about roots a bit already and have been curious about other people's setup here @ HelpfulGardener Unfortunately I have not seen many gardens and the ones I have seen I most certainly was not interested at the time. Looks nice though. I like the 1st pic ya got there. What are those plants you have growing down the sides of your bed? Not the tomatoes...I think youre showing me tomatoes

[Royiah]

I never had that problem with them this close. Its actually not all that close to me. Though it may seem like they are in the pic. The bed is a 4x12 and most people like to have 4x8. I don't really worry as much about roots though I do make sure to give each plant a bit of room. Bit of a guessing game really.(I tend to guess right. ) I found that the 2 1 2 1 with tomato's is good and gives all the plants plenty of air circulation and easy to get to. (Plus it looks nice. ) I do the same with peppers except I can put them closer and in the end have more peppers then tomato's in each bed.

Yep a trellis for each tomato. I'm still experimenting on what I like best this year I'm going to combine the poles I have now and a round tomato cage for the base so I can let it produce more per plant. I tend to keep mine pruned.

Yeah their tomato's! Those are basil plants Their really good as a companion plant with tomato's. And their good for cooking with too.

I'm going to take some more recent pics soon and post them later on a new thread. It might give you a better Idea of what you might like to do in the future.

[imafan26]

Check out the sticky on the tomato forum on tomato support methods.

Plant spacing can depend on variety and type of plant. The seed packet will be your guide to plant spacing.

Determinate tomatoes like celebrity are not pruned. If you prune off the leader, you will not have many tomatoes. Determinates are short, spread sideways and produce most of their tomatoes all at one time.

Indeterminate tomatoes produces tomatoes over a longer span of time. They are very big plants and can be 7-8 feet or more. Indeterminates produce more suckers and can be pruned.

Square foot gardening spacing allows one vine per sq. foot on a trellis with suckers pruned off weekly.

Most recommend 2-3 ft spacing depending on the variety.

Root competition is not as much of a problem if you provide enough nutrients. Tomatoes are heavy feeders and are usually side dressed anyway.

What becomes more important as the plants fill out will be air circulation. Tomatoes are very prone to fungal and bacterial diseases. Making sure they have good air circulation helps with controlling that. Trellising tomatoes keep the fruit off the ground and take less space than tomatoes that are allowed sprawl.
Taking the leaves off the bottom of the vines can help slow down some of the fungal problems. Pruning suckers helps to circulate air and allows for closer plant spacing.

I have problems with fruit flies and birds so I have to bag fruit and use bird netting especially on large tomatoes.

I grow one tomato in an 18 gallon container. My trellis is 7ft tall Concrete reinforcing wire that is wrapped around two of the tomato containers and a third container is placed between them. The length if stretched out would be about 3 containers in an eight (8) foot row.

The photo is of my Cherokee Purple tomatoes that I grew in 2011. I made the bags from tulle from the fabric store. I was told some people use paint strainer sacks instead. That year I had one Cherokee Purple, one Sungold, and one unknown cherry. I got over 50 lbs of fruit from the one plant. The birds got a lot of them too. I had to pick them at first blush.

https://s1325.photobucket.com/user/imafa ... ple?page=1

[Greens]

Good looking plants all around. I plan to mess around a bit with training to maximize my yield as well. Good to know its possible to get 50lbs of tomatoes off 1 plant!

Ive just dug a small 6ft bed or so maybe only 4-5" deep for my lavender. Gotta get the garden smelling nice too How does lavender fair in the veggie garden? Any pros to having it out there? Also how does my bed sound for lavender 6'x6"x5". Real shallow small bed (at least compared to how much ive already dug).

[Greens]

Hey everyone! Got an update. Finally I get a chance to rest. don't think ill be doing much more to it today or for the next couple weeks...unless it needs a bit of upkeep. Here are some pics of my "pretty much" finished garden plot. Thank you all very much for all the advice, info, and conversation. I hope to keep this thread going so that way throughout the growing season here I can refer to it and ask more questions later. Again you have all helped me so much and wish me luck!

[imafan26]

Looking good.

check out the herb forum on growing lavender. There are several post on it. This is just one.

https://helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15744

[Greens]

Looking good.

check out the herb forum on growing lavender. There are several post on it. This is just one.

https://helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15744

very helpful thank you. since my bed is so close to my main plot of veggies, I most likely will not have to water my lavender bed at all. Well not "at all" but with the plastic down and the rain coming in soon and Indiana's humidity particularly in the summer, I shouldn't really ever need to soak the bed. Just allow them to absorb moisture from the air. Light water every now and again. Thanks imafan. Helpful link.

[ElizabethB]

Hi Green,

Welcome to the forum. I know I am late responding to your post but hopefully this will help you with future planting.

https://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/HO-32.pdf

The publication gives you planting dates for different crops. When I plant seeds I ignore the plant spacing recomendation and space my seeds for the mature size. Where it says "thin to" on the package.

In general I try to stick to recommended varieties. I have wandered off that course this spring by planting tomato varieties not usualy seen in south Louisiana. I did call the seed company first and asked for recommendations to meet my criteria - south Louisiana, indeterminate and meaty.

I may have shot my self in the foot but oh well. My garden is is small so it is only a few plants. No big loss if they do not work out.

Your garden looks nice. Good luck

[Greens]

hey everyone! Its been about a week now since the seedlings broke ground. Ive started them off in solo cups with a 1:1 mix of compost and peat (some were about a 1:1:1 mix manure, peat and potting soil). Just thought id make a quick update and hopefully keep this thread alive.

I planned to germinate 6 seeds of each of my veggies and to use the best 3 seedlings from each group for transplant around May 10th. (I used plastic ziplocks to cover cups and create a humidity dome "like" effect for germination only.).

Out of the 6:

-6 Brandywine Pink tomatoes have sprouted
-4 Burpless Garden Sweet Hybrids have sprouted
-2 Hot Pepper Variety seeds have sprouted (I think... tomato and pepper sprouts look similar to me.).

I'm waiting patiently for the rest. I have 18 of these cups all together under 2x40watt 4' fluorescent tubes (5500K). Hopefully, this will be enough light to rear them until transplanting outside (I suspect some of the cucumber seeds have failed to germinate, so as of today there are only 12 seedlings.).

Anyways, not a lot going on here but want to keep documenting for later. I wish the rest of you luck this season and Happy Gardening!

[Greens]

Hi Green,

Welcome to the forum. I know I am late responding to your post but hopefully this will help you with future planting.

https://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/HO-32.pdf

The publication gives you planting dates for different crops. When I plant seeds I ignore the plant spacing recomendation and space my seeds for the mature size. Where it says "thin to" on the package.

In general I try to stick to recommended varieties. I have wandered off that course this spring by planting tomato varieties not usualy seen in south Louisiana. I did call the seed company first and asked for recommendations to meet my criteria - south Louisiana, indeterminate and meaty.

I may have shot my self in the foot but oh well. My garden is is small so it is only a few plants. No big loss if they do not work out.

Your garden looks nice. Good luck

Hey Elizabeth thanks for the warm welcome. As for your tomato selection this season I'm afraid I don't know much about different varieties and when and where they should be grown...YET, but I commend you for trying something different. Also, thanks for the kind words about my plot After some researching a bit on whether or not to do beds or holes. I chose holes. For some reason it just seemed easier for me to do it that way (not that digging those holes was easy buuuuut...). I had some family and friends over last week and some think its not going to work. I had asked why and came to find out they had never seen anyone do it like this before and that was about it. I say they don't know jack So in a way we both are trying something different

Anyways, thanks for the replys and hope to hear from you again in the near future.

[gardeningwithe]

How did your garden turn out in the end? Do you think you'll do it the same next year or have you came across adjustments you would like to make over the course of the growing season? I have in ground beds, but notice every year I change a lil something. Gardening is an evolution for some and others find what works for them and stick with it . I'd love to see any photos you have of things growing! Neat looking garden!