Growing organically is a choice.
In ancient times it was a necessity. There were very few synthetic fertilizers available and there was no plant research.
The discovery of what makes plants grow NPK and particularly the role of nitrogen as being the key to life, led to advances in fertilization techniques
https://www.brmconservancy.org/article-n ... radox.html
Synthetic fertilizers made it possible to feed many more people on much less land. It did however come with a price, over fertilization and runoff damaging the environment and dependence on synthetic fertilization does not build soil.
Going back to nature and incorporating organic materials back into the soil builds and nurtures the soil.
We should all be doing it!
We should also practice conservation tillage to protect the land from erosion and runoff of even organic waste.
https://people.oregonstate.edu/~muirp/constill.htm
I do believe in adding organic matter to the soil, but I am also concerned of the source of that material
I do add compost, most of the literature supports that compost, if it is hot composted for the proper amount of time is safe to use. I also test my compost.
Cold compost and unfinished compost is another story.
Cold compost does not get hot enough to kill pathogens and I have had weed seeds survive composting that are very hard to get rid of. It would also not be hot enough to safely destroy pathogens
Unfinished compost, sucks up nitrogen. Plants will initially grow, but struggle after a while turn yellow and stunt without additional nitrogen.
I treat compost as an amendment to support soil microorganisms, improve soil tilth, plant health, and water holding capacity (sometimes the latter is a problem since my clay soil actually holds too much water). It adds fertility over time.
I prefer not to use manures, blood or bone meal because of the risk of pathogens. That is my choice. Most of the literature says that if they are properly processed they are safe.
I used to use a lot of fertilizer miracle grow, 10-30-10, 10-20-20, citrus food plus micros, iron supplements. I used miracle grow every two weeks on everything, and I routinely used 1/2 cup of lime every two years and 1 cup of granular fertilizer per 100 sqft. as a starter fertilizer.
I cut the use of fertilizer a lot. I use miracle grow mostly on seedlings and sometimes on orchids and only a few times a year. I use more slow release fertilizer in pots now and in potting mixes. I still used starter fertilizer, and I apply nitrogen in phases.
I also get occasional soil tests done. My last soil test only recommended nitrogen since the levels of every thing else was high.
I am adjusting my fertilizing, using more compost instead of starter fertilizer in my vegetable beds. The compost will still add phosphorus and potassium (which right now I don't need) but it will continue to build the soil. I will cut the nitrogen fertilizer as recommended by my soil test.
I also choose to use the least toxic pest control. I plant companions and tolerate a lot of damage before I will resort to spraying. I encourage beneficials to take care of the worst pests and if plants are doing poorly, I usually choose to yank them rather than try to save what is obviously a weak plant.
-
rainbowgardener
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 25279
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
- Location: TN/GA 7b
Nice post.
We all have to make choices about how many and what chemicals we put in our garden. I just keep trying to encourage people to make informed choices, to know what they are putting in to the environment and (as much as we can) about what the impacts of it are, for their own garden and for the broader environment.
It does get complicated to trace all those impacts (where does this stuff come from, how is it manufactured, where does it go after I apply it and what happens to it then).
Personally, I think a little bit organic is not a very workable compromise. People think they will be mostly organic, but as soon as any problem arises, they will run for the chemicals. Doesn't work like that. As soon as you add synthetics you are screwing with the balance of the mini-ecosystem you are trying to develop in your yard. Spray a poison for some insect pest and you wipe out some beneficial that was keeping it or something else in check. And foster resistance to the chemical.
Until just recently my compromise was I was totally organic in the garden, but the indoor stuff including seed starting operation was in MG potting soil. I finally decided that using the MG potting soil was not philosophically tenable for me any more and switched to home made potting soil. Still fine tuning that, but I feel so much better not to be giving my $$ to the MG company.
I do question a bit: Synthetic fertilizers made it possible to feed many more people on much less land
When I talk about organic farming, people always say that about we have to use the chemicals because we have to feed 7 billion people. It is just not true. The big ag companies come in to poor countries and convince every one to switch to the latest miracle. The people end up starving, because the miracle hybrids won't grow without chemicals including pesticides and herbicides that the people can't afford. Their soils get destroyed. The companies want them to grow plants that won't produce their own seeds, so they have to keep buying seed....
Research (which I posted here at one point, it is just too hard to find things these days with search limitations), shows that that in good years organic and chemically grown fields produce about equally, but in drought years the organic does produces much better yields, because the enriched and mulched soil, holds water so much better.
What the chemicals do is allow much more to be produced with much less labor. Labor is the biggest cost in producing anything including food. So the less labor, the more profit for ag co's. So we moved everyone off the farm into the cities. If we were willing to go back to old time human and animal labor intensive methods, give people farm jobs again, we could rebuild our soils, reduce pollution, reduce petroleum dependence ....
We all have to make choices about how many and what chemicals we put in our garden. I just keep trying to encourage people to make informed choices, to know what they are putting in to the environment and (as much as we can) about what the impacts of it are, for their own garden and for the broader environment.
It does get complicated to trace all those impacts (where does this stuff come from, how is it manufactured, where does it go after I apply it and what happens to it then).
Personally, I think a little bit organic is not a very workable compromise. People think they will be mostly organic, but as soon as any problem arises, they will run for the chemicals. Doesn't work like that. As soon as you add synthetics you are screwing with the balance of the mini-ecosystem you are trying to develop in your yard. Spray a poison for some insect pest and you wipe out some beneficial that was keeping it or something else in check. And foster resistance to the chemical.
Until just recently my compromise was I was totally organic in the garden, but the indoor stuff including seed starting operation was in MG potting soil. I finally decided that using the MG potting soil was not philosophically tenable for me any more and switched to home made potting soil. Still fine tuning that, but I feel so much better not to be giving my $$ to the MG company.
I do question a bit: Synthetic fertilizers made it possible to feed many more people on much less land
When I talk about organic farming, people always say that about we have to use the chemicals because we have to feed 7 billion people. It is just not true. The big ag companies come in to poor countries and convince every one to switch to the latest miracle. The people end up starving, because the miracle hybrids won't grow without chemicals including pesticides and herbicides that the people can't afford. Their soils get destroyed. The companies want them to grow plants that won't produce their own seeds, so they have to keep buying seed....
Research (which I posted here at one point, it is just too hard to find things these days with search limitations), shows that that in good years organic and chemically grown fields produce about equally, but in drought years the organic does produces much better yields, because the enriched and mulched soil, holds water so much better.
What the chemicals do is allow much more to be produced with much less labor. Labor is the biggest cost in producing anything including food. So the less labor, the more profit for ag co's. So we moved everyone off the farm into the cities. If we were willing to go back to old time human and animal labor intensive methods, give people farm jobs again, we could rebuild our soils, reduce pollution, reduce petroleum dependence ....
-
kimbledawn
- Senior Member
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:18 am
- Location: Memphis
I completely agree with rainbow. There isn't a middle ground when you are considering organics. I liked a few videos that can be helpful if you want to watch.
https://www.ovguide.com/food-fight-9202a ... 00177f8ba3
This one talks specifically about Big AG and their claim to feed more people.
https://www.truththeory.org/dirt-the-movie/
This one talks about why fertilizers and pesticides were used to begin with and it wasn't some altruistic move to feed more people it was so big chemical companies could have a way to make money off of left over chemicals.
https://www.ovguide.com/food-fight-9202a ... 00177f8ba3
This one talks specifically about Big AG and their claim to feed more people.
https://www.truththeory.org/dirt-the-movie/
This one talks about why fertilizers and pesticides were used to begin with and it wasn't some altruistic move to feed more people it was so big chemical companies could have a way to make money off of left over chemicals.
I am in agreement with you. I am trying to be a better steward of the earth.
What we find in supermarkets were designed to look good and travel well, but we've forgotten what real food should taste like.
I think getting back to working with the soil and growing food we want to eat is why we do all of this work.
We want to know what went into our food. A label on a package does not guarantee freshness or taste. How do we know if it has not been adulterated by preservative sprays, artificial coloring, or been sprayed with pesticides, given hormones, or even if it really is what it says it is on the package.
I am pretty much now tolerating insect damage and depending on planting companions and nectar plants to bring in beneficial insects.
I only use insecticidal soap, alcohol, and occasionally ultra fine oil. I use iron phosphate for slug control and I bait ants with boric acid in a container so the bait does not get into the ground.
I am finding that I am saving a lot of money by not using chemicals.
I have a massive thrip problem, but I can still get decent harvests. I have very good control of aphids.
I am adding more organic material to the soil. I am not getting great results with that alone and that is probably because I do not use manures, blood, bone meal, or seaweed extracts for fertilizer.
My plants look healthy except they are very short and not as productive as they are with synthetic fertilizers.
That is why I still use synthetic fertilizer. In particular, I use sulfate of ammonia. The alkaline plots can use the sulfur as well as the nitrogen.
My soil is planted 365 days a year (no snow here) so it does not get a rest.
I did use fish emulsion and I like the results but the neighbors complain about the smell and it draws every fly and cat in the neighborhood
I did try an organic lawn fertilizer from Scott, but I did not see great results. Organic fertilizers do release slowly.
It is probably why I did not see the results improve with that first crop of corn which was two feet shorter and did not produce as many second ears as I would have gotten using synthetic fertilizer.
I don't grow many legumes, mainly because I don't really like to eat them, but I can try growing more legumes for green manure. I have a lot of cowpea and sun hemp seeds and that may help with the nitrogen issue. I'll find out if I have enough rhizobacteria, if not then I will have to inoculate the seed. It would mean giving up a crop cycle, but it can be worked in, it is only for 7 weeks.
I can try doing that to see if it weans me off the synthetic cycle. My last soil tests that I did on the three plots all say that nitrogen is all they need and sulfur for the alkaline plots.
What we find in supermarkets were designed to look good and travel well, but we've forgotten what real food should taste like.
I think getting back to working with the soil and growing food we want to eat is why we do all of this work.
We want to know what went into our food. A label on a package does not guarantee freshness or taste. How do we know if it has not been adulterated by preservative sprays, artificial coloring, or been sprayed with pesticides, given hormones, or even if it really is what it says it is on the package.
I am pretty much now tolerating insect damage and depending on planting companions and nectar plants to bring in beneficial insects.
I only use insecticidal soap, alcohol, and occasionally ultra fine oil. I use iron phosphate for slug control and I bait ants with boric acid in a container so the bait does not get into the ground.
I am finding that I am saving a lot of money by not using chemicals.
I have a massive thrip problem, but I can still get decent harvests. I have very good control of aphids.
I am adding more organic material to the soil. I am not getting great results with that alone and that is probably because I do not use manures, blood, bone meal, or seaweed extracts for fertilizer.
My plants look healthy except they are very short and not as productive as they are with synthetic fertilizers.
That is why I still use synthetic fertilizer. In particular, I use sulfate of ammonia. The alkaline plots can use the sulfur as well as the nitrogen.
My soil is planted 365 days a year (no snow here) so it does not get a rest.
I did use fish emulsion and I like the results but the neighbors complain about the smell and it draws every fly and cat in the neighborhood
I did try an organic lawn fertilizer from Scott, but I did not see great results. Organic fertilizers do release slowly.
It is probably why I did not see the results improve with that first crop of corn which was two feet shorter and did not produce as many second ears as I would have gotten using synthetic fertilizer.
I don't grow many legumes, mainly because I don't really like to eat them, but I can try growing more legumes for green manure. I have a lot of cowpea and sun hemp seeds and that may help with the nitrogen issue. I'll find out if I have enough rhizobacteria, if not then I will have to inoculate the seed. It would mean giving up a crop cycle, but it can be worked in, it is only for 7 weeks.
I can try doing that to see if it weans me off the synthetic cycle. My last soil tests that I did on the three plots all say that nitrogen is all they need and sulfur for the alkaline plots.
Last edited by imafan26 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
I tend to take a more moderate view and think that there is middle ground. It is just like meat eater versus vegetarian. My wife is vegetarian and I'm a meat eater. Over the years, as much convenience as anything, my meat eating has significantly dropped. Now I would characterize myself as about 80% vegetarian, as breakfast is almost always vegetarian, lunch is usually vegetarian, and dinner is almost always vegetarian. So while I may continue to eat 1-2 pounds of meat per month, that is a far smaller amount than the 2-4 pounds per week that I used to eat.
In terms of impact on the planet, if everyone was 80% vegetarian, that would be the same as 80% of the people being true vegetarians, thus would represent a much smaller footprint than is currently the case.
WRT organic gardening, IMO the same concept applies equally well. We use lots of organic nutrients and keep a large steady stream of compost working each year. We keep a large colony of earth worms growing in the compost pile and in a worm bin. We only sparingly use pesticides, and only in very specific circumstances. We never put pesticides on any kind of greens or green beans and really haven't resorted to using pesticides at all in the garden for the past few years. But I would consider using pesticides on young plants that have not started to set fruit, if an unmanageable problem cropped up.
I look at organic gardening as an ideal. Sometimes practical considerations cause us to fall short of the mark. But with an emphasis toward organic techniques and a strong bias against using chemicals, our efforts are probably 80% to 95% improved, being less damaging to the environment and healthier in our diet, than was the case 30 years ago when most all of our gardening was done with the aid of chemicals.
In terms of impact on the planet, if everyone was 80% vegetarian, that would be the same as 80% of the people being true vegetarians, thus would represent a much smaller footprint than is currently the case.
WRT organic gardening, IMO the same concept applies equally well. We use lots of organic nutrients and keep a large steady stream of compost working each year. We keep a large colony of earth worms growing in the compost pile and in a worm bin. We only sparingly use pesticides, and only in very specific circumstances. We never put pesticides on any kind of greens or green beans and really haven't resorted to using pesticides at all in the garden for the past few years. But I would consider using pesticides on young plants that have not started to set fruit, if an unmanageable problem cropped up.
I look at organic gardening as an ideal. Sometimes practical considerations cause us to fall short of the mark. But with an emphasis toward organic techniques and a strong bias against using chemicals, our efforts are probably 80% to 95% improved, being less damaging to the environment and healthier in our diet, than was the case 30 years ago when most all of our gardening was done with the aid of chemicals.
-
Jardin du Fort
- Senior Member
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:59 pm
- Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Hear Here!
I'm in agreement with the organic growing program! I have long been an advocate of eating healthy food, and I believe that the healthiest food you can eat is that which is grown in an organic way. It is possible to grow vegetables (and fruits and grains, etc.) on "soil" that has absolutely NO nutrients in it by means of artificial fertilization. I don't want to eat that food. It is missing so many trace elements and vitamins and other generally healthy components that you may as well skip the middle man and just inject the artificial fertilizer into your own veins. Who wants to do that? OK, so there are probably some crazies out there who would....
I had a burger for dinner at a national chain restaurant and got a slice of "vine ripened" tomato for it. I asked for it on the side. It was pale. I tasted it, and it was tasteless. What is the point of food like this? It is obviously a "hot house" tomato, possibly even hydroponic. OK, so yes, vine ripened. HAH!
God has created such a complex and diverse system of agronomic biology that man's scientific approach to garden with merely a few basic nutrients is a criminal oversimplification. Fifty years ago we didn't even consider the nutritive value of "trace minerals". In another fifty years what will we have learned that we need that is missing from our artificially manufactured food factory?
I don't want to wait that long. In fact I won't last that long. But as long as I have the option, my choice is to eat as healthily as possible. That is why I am starting my own organic veggie garden. I just wish I had the resources to grow fruits, grains, and a few critters in an organic setting.
I'm in agreement with the organic growing program! I have long been an advocate of eating healthy food, and I believe that the healthiest food you can eat is that which is grown in an organic way. It is possible to grow vegetables (and fruits and grains, etc.) on "soil" that has absolutely NO nutrients in it by means of artificial fertilization. I don't want to eat that food. It is missing so many trace elements and vitamins and other generally healthy components that you may as well skip the middle man and just inject the artificial fertilizer into your own veins. Who wants to do that? OK, so there are probably some crazies out there who would....
I had a burger for dinner at a national chain restaurant and got a slice of "vine ripened" tomato for it. I asked for it on the side. It was pale. I tasted it, and it was tasteless. What is the point of food like this? It is obviously a "hot house" tomato, possibly even hydroponic. OK, so yes, vine ripened. HAH!
God has created such a complex and diverse system of agronomic biology that man's scientific approach to garden with merely a few basic nutrients is a criminal oversimplification. Fifty years ago we didn't even consider the nutritive value of "trace minerals". In another fifty years what will we have learned that we need that is missing from our artificially manufactured food factory?
I don't want to wait that long. In fact I won't last that long. But as long as I have the option, my choice is to eat as healthily as possible. That is why I am starting my own organic veggie garden. I just wish I had the resources to grow fruits, grains, and a few critters in an organic setting.
-
hendi_alex
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 am
- Location: Central Sand Hills South Carolina
Along the same lines, I was researching my latest interest, raising egg laying chickens. It seems a shame to have the birds exist 100% on commercial bird feed. So I was investigating ground covers that will serve well to supplement their diet. Several articles suggested that when various crops are grown for forage, that the amount of omega three present in the eggs is dramatically increased.
While my chickens will be kept in a large caged run. I'll try to divide it into sub sections and try to keep various grains and other crops growing for forage. Right now I'm looking at various strategies to give the chickens greater access to the yard. Perhaps will make a couple of portable cages that can be moved from one spot to another, so that the chickens can continuously be moved to fresh locations for foraging.
It may not be practical for our chickens to just have free range of the yard, but I'm sure that we can come up with strategies that allow much greater freedom than when locked in the coop.
While my chickens will be kept in a large caged run. I'll try to divide it into sub sections and try to keep various grains and other crops growing for forage. Right now I'm looking at various strategies to give the chickens greater access to the yard. Perhaps will make a couple of portable cages that can be moved from one spot to another, so that the chickens can continuously be moved to fresh locations for foraging.
It may not be practical for our chickens to just have free range of the yard, but I'm sure that we can come up with strategies that allow much greater freedom than when locked in the coop.
So true, organic pesticides aren't safer. I do try to avoid all pesticides unless I have no other choice. When I do use a pesticide, I spot treat and only after everything else has failed.
I guess the biggest issue I have with organic is that it is hard to siphon out the facts from the hype about organic culture.
Everyone agrees organic is better for building soil, but a lot of things are being called organic, but does the label imply they are actually better?
https://www.gracelinks.org/253/organic-agriculture
https://www.nature.com/news/organic-farm ... gh-1.10519
https://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2012/120904.html
https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html
I depend less on synthetic fertilizers now, but I would eliminate them if I had a safe, inexpensive organic substitute.
Right now, the organic sources available to me cost 50% more (I think part of that is because it says organic on the label, not that the product costs more to produce). I have to use 2-4 times the amount and I have to plan about 6 months ahead.
My yields have decreased when I have tried to use just organic inputs and the soil pH has gone up.
I guess the biggest issue I have with organic is that it is hard to siphon out the facts from the hype about organic culture.
Everyone agrees organic is better for building soil, but a lot of things are being called organic, but does the label imply they are actually better?
https://www.gracelinks.org/253/organic-agriculture
https://www.nature.com/news/organic-farm ... gh-1.10519
https://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2012/120904.html
https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html
I depend less on synthetic fertilizers now, but I would eliminate them if I had a safe, inexpensive organic substitute.
Right now, the organic sources available to me cost 50% more (I think part of that is because it says organic on the label, not that the product costs more to produce). I have to use 2-4 times the amount and I have to plan about 6 months ahead.
My yields have decreased when I have tried to use just organic inputs and the soil pH has gone up.
-
rainbowgardener
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 25279
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
- Location: TN/GA 7b
I was encouraged to use the new Google search bar. It's a little less obvious and more cumbersome, but by putting in organic yields + helpfulgardener.com + rainbowgardener and scrolling down past all the irrelevant "sponsored links" that come up first, I was able to get back to the thread I was thinking of.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... p?p=157592
You have to ignore my post at the top of this page which is relevant to a previous signature line I was using back then.
Imafan, I don't agree that organic pesticides aren't safer. I agree that they are not harmless. But in general organic pesticides biodegrade a lot easier and their degradation products tend not to continue to be toxic. So they are a lot safer in the environment, than the commercial poisons.
For your situation re not enough N, you do make it harder for yourself by not using manure and using your soil 12 months a year is more likely to deplete it. Do you keep your soil mulched all the time? I also don't use manure, just because I like to "import" as little as possible. I do have fallow winters and I do keep my soil mulched with organic stuff that breaks down to feed it. You might need to look for other sources of N for your soil or your compost pile. Coffee grounds would be one. Do you have Starbucks or the equivalent there? They will give you their used coffee grounds for free. One very high N source I have found is skimming the duckweed off my pond. Wow does that heat up my compost pile! Don't know if that is of any relevance to you there, but there might be other pond weeds that would do the same. Also, you probably have sea weed available to you.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... p?p=157592
You have to ignore my post at the top of this page which is relevant to a previous signature line I was using back then.
Imafan, I don't agree that organic pesticides aren't safer. I agree that they are not harmless. But in general organic pesticides biodegrade a lot easier and their degradation products tend not to continue to be toxic. So they are a lot safer in the environment, than the commercial poisons.
For your situation re not enough N, you do make it harder for yourself by not using manure and using your soil 12 months a year is more likely to deplete it. Do you keep your soil mulched all the time? I also don't use manure, just because I like to "import" as little as possible. I do have fallow winters and I do keep my soil mulched with organic stuff that breaks down to feed it. You might need to look for other sources of N for your soil or your compost pile. Coffee grounds would be one. Do you have Starbucks or the equivalent there? They will give you their used coffee grounds for free. One very high N source I have found is skimming the duckweed off my pond. Wow does that heat up my compost pile! Don't know if that is of any relevance to you there, but there might be other pond weeds that would do the same. Also, you probably have sea weed available to you.
-
kimbledawn
- Senior Member
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:18 am
- Location: Memphis
I think that this is a really good conversation. This week has been devoted to documentaries that I love. I love learning anything new about the environment. Anyway, I watched Back to Eden for the first time and although I practice a lot of his techniques in my garden, I never did it quite the way he does it.
https://vimeo.com/28055108
I have wood chips piled up in the yard so I won't turn the beds at all just pile everything up.
https://vimeo.com/28055108
I have wood chips piled up in the yard so I won't turn the beds at all just pile everything up.
I am going to try to mulch more.
I don't have a lot of leaves so I think I will try using newspaper. I use it for weed control now. It does not last long but it helps
I try to avoid even organic pesticides unless absolutely necessary. I have almost no aphids except on onions (different kind of aphid) and the citrus which can be controlled by pruning to open up circulation and ant control.
Nitrogen is the one element that is hard to get into the garden. I'll try some green manure again. I have the cow pea and sun hemp seeds and I can grow more legumes.
I do think the Jury is still out as far as the safety of organic pesticides are concerned. Even organic culture can be polluting and cause disease if proper procedures are not followed to manage fresh manures, compost to required temperatures and prevent contamination of water sources.
I have stopped using neem because other oils are just as effective. Neem may contribute to colony colapse disorder in bees. Neem does not harm the adult bees, but they feed the pollen to their young. Neem may kill larvae of some bee species.
More research needs to be done on organic pesticides. You cannot just assume they are safe. Pyrethrins in a flower is organic, concentrated a thousand times, is not.
Rotenone is an organic pesticide that can kill fish. Fresh manures and urine can contaminate waterways and can contaminate shellfish.
Organic pesticides may be just as carcinogenic as synthetic pesticides.
Since organic pesticides have to be applied more often than synthetics, the risks of exposure can be higher.
Most of the streams here that have been urbanized are unsafe even to wade in because of contamination by leptospirosis.
More and more we are hearing about contamination of lettuce, strawberrries, basil, spinach, and bean sprouts with salmonella or e.coli.
Contamination could have come from many sources on the farm and by workers processing produce, and after market handling. Some were linked to water contaminated by manures.
If it were a pesticide, everyone would have been up in arms. Just because the source of the pathogens could have come from more than just agricultural practices does not mean they are of any less concern.
I don't have a lot of leaves so I think I will try using newspaper. I use it for weed control now. It does not last long but it helps
I try to avoid even organic pesticides unless absolutely necessary. I have almost no aphids except on onions (different kind of aphid) and the citrus which can be controlled by pruning to open up circulation and ant control.
Nitrogen is the one element that is hard to get into the garden. I'll try some green manure again. I have the cow pea and sun hemp seeds and I can grow more legumes.
I do think the Jury is still out as far as the safety of organic pesticides are concerned. Even organic culture can be polluting and cause disease if proper procedures are not followed to manage fresh manures, compost to required temperatures and prevent contamination of water sources.
I have stopped using neem because other oils are just as effective. Neem may contribute to colony colapse disorder in bees. Neem does not harm the adult bees, but they feed the pollen to their young. Neem may kill larvae of some bee species.
More research needs to be done on organic pesticides. You cannot just assume they are safe. Pyrethrins in a flower is organic, concentrated a thousand times, is not.
Rotenone is an organic pesticide that can kill fish. Fresh manures and urine can contaminate waterways and can contaminate shellfish.
Organic pesticides may be just as carcinogenic as synthetic pesticides.
Since organic pesticides have to be applied more often than synthetics, the risks of exposure can be higher.
Most of the streams here that have been urbanized are unsafe even to wade in because of contamination by leptospirosis.
More and more we are hearing about contamination of lettuce, strawberrries, basil, spinach, and bean sprouts with salmonella or e.coli.
Contamination could have come from many sources on the farm and by workers processing produce, and after market handling. Some were linked to water contaminated by manures.
If it were a pesticide, everyone would have been up in arms. Just because the source of the pathogens could have come from more than just agricultural practices does not mean they are of any less concern.
Excellent conversation. Delicious food for thought!
Going organic has been a hard road for me. I grew up gardening with miracle grow, and all that other synthetic stuff. Lots of trial and error.
I have had the best luck with organic gardening when I've moved into houses where the yard had previously been neglected. If there was no lawn, no fertilizers, no pesticides, no plants using the nutrients, it's perfect. Ahhh, a fallow field! When I've been in that situation it has been very easy to build and enrich the soil organically in no time.
If I move somewhere there has been a green lawn or garden, it can take up to five years to build the soil up to where I want it. Consider it a labor of love.
Now I have only a raised bed and pots and have had to buy a lot of sterilized soils and have been enriching organically for a year and would have to say the soil is still far from desirable, though with lots of effort the garden does well. Like yours, my plants have been smaller than I'd like this past year, but as you build your soil the plants will respond in kind.
Lately I have been wondering how organic my garden can really be when I am surrounded by lush green lawns (in the desert...). The HOA sprays pesticides and herbicides on all but two condos (myself and one other girl who is starting a garden). We both hand pull little weeds diligently and use responsible pest control methods.
Yet, I wonder...when it rains all those chemicals are leaching into the ground water and are getting into the soil. I know they are not spraying my garden because the herbicide leaves yellow stains all over the dirt/gravel where they use it. I also have honey bees year round and have been overwhelmed by bugs like aphids, caterpillars, beetles. I can't help but wonder if they flock to our two small gardens because everywhere else is saturated by chemicals?
Going organic has been a hard road for me. I grew up gardening with miracle grow, and all that other synthetic stuff. Lots of trial and error.
I have had the best luck with organic gardening when I've moved into houses where the yard had previously been neglected. If there was no lawn, no fertilizers, no pesticides, no plants using the nutrients, it's perfect. Ahhh, a fallow field! When I've been in that situation it has been very easy to build and enrich the soil organically in no time.
If I move somewhere there has been a green lawn or garden, it can take up to five years to build the soil up to where I want it. Consider it a labor of love.
Now I have only a raised bed and pots and have had to buy a lot of sterilized soils and have been enriching organically for a year and would have to say the soil is still far from desirable, though with lots of effort the garden does well. Like yours, my plants have been smaller than I'd like this past year, but as you build your soil the plants will respond in kind.
Lately I have been wondering how organic my garden can really be when I am surrounded by lush green lawns (in the desert...). The HOA sprays pesticides and herbicides on all but two condos (myself and one other girl who is starting a garden). We both hand pull little weeds diligently and use responsible pest control methods.
Yet, I wonder...when it rains all those chemicals are leaching into the ground water and are getting into the soil. I know they are not spraying my garden because the herbicide leaves yellow stains all over the dirt/gravel where they use it. I also have honey bees year round and have been overwhelmed by bugs like aphids, caterpillars, beetles. I can't help but wonder if they flock to our two small gardens because everywhere else is saturated by chemicals?
I've had parts of this discussion elsewhere for the past few years. Here are some of them:
--factors, at least in California, making organic produce more expensive than its conventional counterpart
--my original decision to garden organically, right here
--details on the "must garden organically" decision, on page 2 of this thread
--references re. soil destruction in poor countries here
More later!
Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
--factors, at least in California, making organic produce more expensive than its conventional counterpart
--my original decision to garden organically, right here
--details on the "must garden organically" decision, on page 2 of this thread
--references re. soil destruction in poor countries here
More later!
Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9
This is a Great discussion!
Organic, no, mid, sometimes, sustainable.....It gets complex and complicated. Even Organic has several meanings. One most of us use is healthy, sustainable, and no harsh pesticides. To be certified is another category. As I am doing the farmers market (fresh cut herbs) am with other produce vendors. Most of us don't claim 'Organic', but more like sustainable, no harsh chemicals etc. A couple of vendors are certified 'Organic'. Even though I don't use harsh chemicals, couldn't be certified. I can't gift a plant start to a cert. farmer as my start isn't certified.
Just as a note, was working on the # crunching for the (very ) small business. In breaking down categories, one I have is chemicals, fertilizer. I think most all of that for 2012 was fish emulsion. I still have small spray containers of copper (rust, fungus) and pyrethrins purchased previous yr. Yes, I do have a jug of Round-up 'poison ivy' container with sprayer, going on 2 yrs old. (I have no quams about spraying poison ivy in the privot hedge and sometimes eye the whole hedge!) I use the 'deodorized' fish that is not organic certified. I plan to use more this season, especially for the basil.
As mentioned, good discussion, and also many green and light green areas. As for me, don't have a goal to be 100% certifiable. I am just working on workable. FWIW, our farmers market customers appreciate our growing methods, and would rather find a bug than chemicals.
Keep talking!
Organic, no, mid, sometimes, sustainable.....It gets complex and complicated. Even Organic has several meanings. One most of us use is healthy, sustainable, and no harsh pesticides. To be certified is another category. As I am doing the farmers market (fresh cut herbs) am with other produce vendors. Most of us don't claim 'Organic', but more like sustainable, no harsh chemicals etc. A couple of vendors are certified 'Organic'. Even though I don't use harsh chemicals, couldn't be certified. I can't gift a plant start to a cert. farmer as my start isn't certified.
Just as a note, was working on the # crunching for the (very ) small business. In breaking down categories, one I have is chemicals, fertilizer. I think most all of that for 2012 was fish emulsion. I still have small spray containers of copper (rust, fungus) and pyrethrins purchased previous yr. Yes, I do have a jug of Round-up 'poison ivy' container with sprayer, going on 2 yrs old. (I have no quams about spraying poison ivy in the privot hedge and sometimes eye the whole hedge!) I use the 'deodorized' fish that is not organic certified. I plan to use more this season, especially for the basil.
As mentioned, good discussion, and also many green and light green areas. As for me, don't have a goal to be 100% certifiable. I am just working on workable. FWIW, our farmers market customers appreciate our growing methods, and would rather find a bug than chemicals.
Keep talking!
I tend toward moderation too. I sometimes wish to use roundup, especially when I keep cutting down the same weed, but then I think about all the precautions I would have to take to cover things nearby so they won't get over spray and having to wash up afterwards, I keep just cutting the same weed down.
I choose to let natural controls take care of most things.
I still use slug bait, but I have switched from methaldehyde to iron phosphate. Unfortunately, the cons of having a hen around outweigh the pros.
I am adding more organic matter to the soil, compost, and recycling crop residue. Right now, I'm still transitioning so, I actually do not like the drop in yields that I am experiencing. I'm hoping that will get better.
I tried composting, but my yard is too small to give up space for a compost pile and no matter where it is, it will be too close to the house.
I do vermicompost, but I regularly have to evict the roaches from the bin and squash any that make a break back for the garage.
I have also done bag composting. It still attracts way too many ants and roaches, but it is contained and easy to do.
As mentioned before,yes I use fertilizer, but now I do soil tests and I cut my fertilizer a lot.
I used to grow more plants for fun, but now I eat more of what I grow. It gives me a greater appreciation for what food can taste like.
My mom thought something was wrong with my cucumber because it had spines on it. There really is no comparison in texture and taste from just picked cucumbers, tomatoes, lettuce, cabbages, herbs, and beets than what comes from the store.
At least I know that my veggies are free of pesticides. I do disagree with the person who said veggies don't have taste with synthetic fertilizer. I find taste has more to do with variety, the commercial varieties are bred for keeping and looking pretty, not for taste.
The local corn recommended is UH number 10, it is o.k. for a sweet corn. The kernels are bit tough and the ear is shorter, but it is sweet, but it can't compete with silver queen for me.
I do agree that when over watered taste and texture does suffer. That is why I don't pick papayas after it has been raining hard. They are mealy, but they get better after they dry out. I find that hydroponic lettuce and tomatoes look prettier, and lettuce is crisper, but to me they have no taste.
I also appreciate how much time, mud, and backaches went in to producing it. I just makes me savor it more.
I choose to let natural controls take care of most things.
I still use slug bait, but I have switched from methaldehyde to iron phosphate. Unfortunately, the cons of having a hen around outweigh the pros.
I am adding more organic matter to the soil, compost, and recycling crop residue. Right now, I'm still transitioning so, I actually do not like the drop in yields that I am experiencing. I'm hoping that will get better.
I tried composting, but my yard is too small to give up space for a compost pile and no matter where it is, it will be too close to the house.
I do vermicompost, but I regularly have to evict the roaches from the bin and squash any that make a break back for the garage.
I have also done bag composting. It still attracts way too many ants and roaches, but it is contained and easy to do.
As mentioned before,yes I use fertilizer, but now I do soil tests and I cut my fertilizer a lot.
I used to grow more plants for fun, but now I eat more of what I grow. It gives me a greater appreciation for what food can taste like.
My mom thought something was wrong with my cucumber because it had spines on it. There really is no comparison in texture and taste from just picked cucumbers, tomatoes, lettuce, cabbages, herbs, and beets than what comes from the store.
At least I know that my veggies are free of pesticides. I do disagree with the person who said veggies don't have taste with synthetic fertilizer. I find taste has more to do with variety, the commercial varieties are bred for keeping and looking pretty, not for taste.
The local corn recommended is UH number 10, it is o.k. for a sweet corn. The kernels are bit tough and the ear is shorter, but it is sweet, but it can't compete with silver queen for me.
I do agree that when over watered taste and texture does suffer. That is why I don't pick papayas after it has been raining hard. They are mealy, but they get better after they dry out. I find that hydroponic lettuce and tomatoes look prettier, and lettuce is crisper, but to me they have no taste.
I also appreciate how much time, mud, and backaches went in to producing it. I just makes me savor it more.