I read that digging the soil disturbs the soil structure (true, one should never dig in wet clay soil), and can disturb the balance of critters in the soil (soil web). Using tillers and walking on the soil can aerate and soften the upper layers but compact the lower layers that the tillers do not reach over time.
The whole idea of lasagna or no till is to have the soil nutrients get replenished by adding compost and mulch to the top and the earthworms and other soil organisms will drag down the nutrients they need for themselves, building up the soil over time. It is supposed to be a minimal work garden.
The one thing that I did get out of the video was that the soil still had to be good soil below. It had to be well drained and fertile to start with. Planting is not done in the mulch layer, but directly into the soil. The mulch layer helps with weed control but cannot support the growth of plants.
John Jeavons does something very similar and he calls it biointensive gardening. In biointensive gardening cover crops are also used to build soils with green manure. The eden film did not talk about using cover crops or even crop rotation.
imafan26:
Paul had bad soil to begin with and he does say so in the movie that it doesn't matter what kind of soil you have. He even shows you what his looked like before he applied his method. So I do believe your statement is wrong in that aspect.
The point of the process is to bring your soil back to what it should be and then improve upon it. And yes it is stated that you shouldn't plant in the mulch and instead plant in the soil underneath it. The reason for this is because the mulch hasn't become soil yet and will take awhile before it does. (kinda like compost takes a few months to a year before you can use it.) This method gets better as you use it year after year. (Paul States this in the movie.)
As for the cover crop method to me it seems a little complicated and more suited to big time farmers rather then back yard gardens Or small farms.
Every method is different just like every person is different it just depends on what works for you. personally I like this one and really just wanted others to know about it.
Paul had bad soil to begin with and he does say so in the movie that it doesn't matter what kind of soil you have. He even shows you what his looked like before he applied his method. So I do believe your statement is wrong in that aspect.
The point of the process is to bring your soil back to what it should be and then improve upon it. And yes it is stated that you shouldn't plant in the mulch and instead plant in the soil underneath it. The reason for this is because the mulch hasn't become soil yet and will take awhile before it does. (kinda like compost takes a few months to a year before you can use it.) This method gets better as you use it year after year. (Paul States this in the movie.)
As for the cover crop method to me it seems a little complicated and more suited to big time farmers rather then back yard gardens Or small farms.
Every method is different just like every person is different it just depends on what works for you. personally I like this one and really just wanted others to know about it.
In the first 3 minutes of the movie he says that he gardened traditionally on his farm for 17 years rototilling and adding organic matter and working hard to get a crop before he realized all he had to do was add wood chips, and all he needed was a rake. He did say the rocky areas were not even tillable so he put wood chips on top of that and eventually was able to plant in the organic matter that was added. So, you are correct parts of his farm did not have good soil.
This is an excellent film but it is very long.
Paul did say that nature did not recycle, and it does look that way if you are looking at a part of the environment over a short space of time.
If you look at what has happened over a long period of time, geological time, even nature recycles. What was once the ocean floor is now a desert in the middle of the present United States.
Invasive species that are introduced into fragile ecosystems overwhelm natives and become the new dominant species, especially if they are introduced into an environment that has no natural predators to control the invaders.
Biointensive farming works for backyard, small scale commercial and small comunal farms. The biointensive method is sustainable agriculture. It differs from the eden film in that beds are initially prepared by double digging. Parts of Paul Goutchi's farm was traditionally farmed for 17 years so it was deeply tilled, while other parts were just layered. His is akin to lasagna gardening.
Biointensive recycles garden and kitchen waste into compost and mulch for the garden and there is a planting plan that includes a combination of plants to keep the soil healthy and productive. Most of the organic matter on the farm is recycled and does not depend on an outside source of organic matter to sustain it.
There are many parts to biointensive gardening. This link is just the introduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPeAvYrfKkU
Both types of gardening practices use the principles of
building soil by adding organic matter
Organic matter in the soil reduces water consumption and makes controlling weeds easier.
Both systems embrace permaculture principles
nurturing the land
nurturing people
and sharing with community.
This is an excellent film but it is very long.
Paul did say that nature did not recycle, and it does look that way if you are looking at a part of the environment over a short space of time.
If you look at what has happened over a long period of time, geological time, even nature recycles. What was once the ocean floor is now a desert in the middle of the present United States.
Invasive species that are introduced into fragile ecosystems overwhelm natives and become the new dominant species, especially if they are introduced into an environment that has no natural predators to control the invaders.
Biointensive farming works for backyard, small scale commercial and small comunal farms. The biointensive method is sustainable agriculture. It differs from the eden film in that beds are initially prepared by double digging. Parts of Paul Goutchi's farm was traditionally farmed for 17 years so it was deeply tilled, while other parts were just layered. His is akin to lasagna gardening.
Biointensive recycles garden and kitchen waste into compost and mulch for the garden and there is a planting plan that includes a combination of plants to keep the soil healthy and productive. Most of the organic matter on the farm is recycled and does not depend on an outside source of organic matter to sustain it.
There are many parts to biointensive gardening. This link is just the introduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPeAvYrfKkU
Both types of gardening practices use the principles of
building soil by adding organic matter
Organic matter in the soil reduces water consumption and makes controlling weeds easier.
Both systems embrace permaculture principles
nurturing the land
nurturing people
and sharing with community.
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Happy Days
- Senior Member
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- Location: Zone 7a, Sunset Zone 33
I believe lasagna, no dig, no till, sheet mulching all share the same basic concepts. The soil is not disturbed, organic materials are laid on top. the only holes dug into the soil are for planting seeds. It is a way to control weeds and preserve the soil from erosion and not disturb the soil web while at the same time adding fertility and using less water.
All these methods may require some initial prep. Double digging once in preparing the first bed (biointensive). If you are building a raised bed or building on a layer of carboard over the soil, it takes initial inputs compost and mulch to plant in. You are not digging into the earth, but you are still creating a loose (well aerated) fertile medium to grow in. After the initial preparation, disturbing the soil by tilling is minimized in all of these methods.
Some methods lay green manures or crop residues down on the beds as mulch. Others take the garden residues compost in piles and bring it back again to the garden. Paul brings in layers and layers of wood chips that he has gotten free from tree trimmers. Sustainable gardeners would use what is available but will maximize recycling of materials on the farm and minimize waste and use of outside inputs.
All these methods may require some initial prep. Double digging once in preparing the first bed (biointensive). If you are building a raised bed or building on a layer of carboard over the soil, it takes initial inputs compost and mulch to plant in. You are not digging into the earth, but you are still creating a loose (well aerated) fertile medium to grow in. After the initial preparation, disturbing the soil by tilling is minimized in all of these methods.
Some methods lay green manures or crop residues down on the beds as mulch. Others take the garden residues compost in piles and bring it back again to the garden. Paul brings in layers and layers of wood chips that he has gotten free from tree trimmers. Sustainable gardeners would use what is available but will maximize recycling of materials on the farm and minimize waste and use of outside inputs.
Last edited by imafan26 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Happy Days
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:42 pm
- Location: Zone 7a, Sunset Zone 33
That's what I thought. I'm somewhat familiar with the Back to Eden concepts but didn't have time yet to view the video. Just wanted to be certain. I lasagna/sheet garden and what a relief to discover that as opposed to the till methods.
I was told there are types of wood/wood chips/shreds to be avoided as mulches or as layering in the no till methods, fresh cedar or cedar, in general, being one of them. I believe it had something to do with the oils but don't remember the rationale. What about something like shredded cedar dog or pet bedding, for instance?
I was told there are types of wood/wood chips/shreds to be avoided as mulches or as layering in the no till methods, fresh cedar or cedar, in general, being one of them. I believe it had something to do with the oils but don't remember the rationale. What about something like shredded cedar dog or pet bedding, for instance?
There are types of wood that you probably would avoid like walnut. I do not know about animal bedding or cedar since they are not normally found here unless it is in a house or pet bedding. The only things that are really undesirable here are palms, coconut husks, nut sedge, and weeds. Palms mainly because they are difficult to shred and take up to 2 years to break down. Nut sedge and some weeds because they don't die.
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Folsom Art
- Newly Registered
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- Location: Folsom, Louisiana -- Costal South
I garden in southeastern Louisiana over a heavy clay soil so I use raised beds.
I just looked at the Back to Eden DVD and several posts on YouTube. I am seriously considering using this technique. I have about one acre available (cleared and open to the sun) where I could use this no (or at least minimal) watering technique.
My concern is termites finding a home in the wood chip mulch. Is this a problem in gardens in the deep south? Is there an organic solution?
Art
I just looked at the Back to Eden DVD and several posts on YouTube. I am seriously considering using this technique. I have about one acre available (cleared and open to the sun) where I could use this no (or at least minimal) watering technique.
My concern is termites finding a home in the wood chip mulch. Is this a problem in gardens in the deep south? Is there an organic solution?
Art
PunkRotten: Your rabbit manure will work great as a fertilizer additive but is not really mulch. You're looking to build up a very thick layer of mulch and wood chips. By doing this almost super mulch method you allow continuous composting of your base, restricts weeds , holds in moisture. No tilling, no compacting.
Solution: You can use cedar without problems, just age the woodchips 1year before using them. Basically just pile it up and use it next year, this would be the most safe practise. I think I even mention this in the movie.Happy Days wrote:I was told there are types of wood/wood chips/shreds to be avoided as mulches or as layering in the no till methods, fresh cedar or cedar, in general, being one of them. I believe it had something to do with the oils but don't remember the rationale. What about something like shredded cedar dog or pet bedding, for instance?
Edit: Should add that aging them a year would be a good practice on all kinds of woodchips. Softer woods like canes from bushes like raspberry and blueberry I just chop up and use on top as mulch directly seems to work fine.
Some wanna stretch it so far that you shouldnt use cedar, but we should all use what we have available and cedar may be a very good solution for many.
Last edited by Mr green on Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
where can I find it? Sorry if it's a bit off-topicPaul's initial video talks mostly about mulching, but he added straw and sheep manure. He tilled and added compost for 17 years before he started heavy mulching. The mulch retained moisture so he rarely had to water established plants. Although he did water very young plants. Later videos he also said that he does more permaculture type gardening because he keeps chickens so they are also fertilizing the soil.
It is a problem to use thick mulch in Hawaii too. Termites are everywhere in telephone poles, any wood that is piled and not moved or treated. They ate my garden trellis. And of course they like to eat houses. But termites are not the biggest problem with mulch. The biggest problems are the ants, centipedes, roaches, mice, and beetles that like to live in it. You have to be careful where the mulch comes from because some weeds survive mulching and composting and they don't go away unless you use Roundup repeatedly.
My type of soil is an oxisol which is not rich and is acidic. Adding composts improves the CEC and fertilizer makes it very productive. When I have done muching, mostly with leaves as I don't have that much access to wood chips, I had issues with compaction and red dirt is already hard and heavy to work and leaves slowed it from drying and clay cannot be worked wet. It required more fertilizer especially nitrogen to feed the decomposition of the mulch. Actually I do mulch my pathways, and that has made the most successful compost, but it takes a few years. I made the mistake more than once of tilling in uncomposted leaves and the soil fluffed which is why I put it in, but I needed to add additional fertilizer or the plants were much smaller. I did try no til, but it was hard to do since I have a lot of nut sedge and the soil can compact easily so easily that just adding compost on top was not enough to stop the weeds from taking over or getting good growth from the plants because of the heavy soil. I have experimented with using compost as mulch. It does not work that well for weed control, but I am hoping the earthworms and other denizens of the soil will come up and pull the compost down. So far, it has not afftected the growth of the plants one way or another, but it may just need more time.
Paul's original video. it is long almost 2 hours.
You can hear the chickens in the background.
It is a problem to use thick mulch in Hawaii too. Termites are everywhere in telephone poles, any wood that is piled and not moved or treated. They ate my garden trellis. And of course they like to eat houses. But termites are not the biggest problem with mulch. The biggest problems are the ants, centipedes, roaches, mice, and beetles that like to live in it. You have to be careful where the mulch comes from because some weeds survive mulching and composting and they don't go away unless you use Roundup repeatedly.
My type of soil is an oxisol which is not rich and is acidic. Adding composts improves the CEC and fertilizer makes it very productive. When I have done muching, mostly with leaves as I don't have that much access to wood chips, I had issues with compaction and red dirt is already hard and heavy to work and leaves slowed it from drying and clay cannot be worked wet. It required more fertilizer especially nitrogen to feed the decomposition of the mulch. Actually I do mulch my pathways, and that has made the most successful compost, but it takes a few years. I made the mistake more than once of tilling in uncomposted leaves and the soil fluffed which is why I put it in, but I needed to add additional fertilizer or the plants were much smaller. I did try no til, but it was hard to do since I have a lot of nut sedge and the soil can compact easily so easily that just adding compost on top was not enough to stop the weeds from taking over or getting good growth from the plants because of the heavy soil. I have experimented with using compost as mulch. It does not work that well for weed control, but I am hoping the earthworms and other denizens of the soil will come up and pull the compost down. So far, it has not afftected the growth of the plants one way or another, but it may just need more time.
Paul's original video. it is long almost 2 hours.
You can hear the chickens in the background.
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Meatburner
- Senior Member
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- Location: SW MO zone 6b
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Meatburner
- Senior Member
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:00 pm
- Location: SW MO zone 6b
Annalkona, this thread is about Back to Eden gardening so you are not off topic at all. Youtube has the full film. Search by Back to Eden Film, or search L2Survive Paul who has a lot of short videos of Paul and also a full documentary which is near 2 hours long. I converted to this method about four years ago and cannot believe how productive and simple it is. Don't get into making it difficult and over thinking the process. One thing I wanted to point out is what the wood chip covering is. It is aged ramial wood chips which are chipped up branches that contain about 80-90% needles and leaves. The green is what makes it compost so well. It is NOT chipped logs and barks. If you cannot get aged ramial wood chips, it will still work but you will probably have to add some fertilized and water the first year even if you ideally started the process in the fall. I only add about 3" each fall and a light dusting of maybe 1/2" of compost or composted manure on top. Don't start with any more than 4" of chips or it become too difficult to move the mulch back and plant in the dirt underneath. Adding a couple of inches of compost on top of the newspaper or cardboard before the wood chips are put down can be really helpful as well. Don't let people make it complicate as it is not difficult. Mr Green had a good post on the chips. Good luck and keep us posted.