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Royiah
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Back to Eden Gardening (No-till Method)

First I'd like to apologize if I posted this in the wrong form. I wasn't sure where to put it so I picked the one that would most likely be the best.

I recently came across a movie called Back to Eden. Its a documentary about a guy called Paul Gautschi. In the film It explains how Paul came to Re-create as he would probably say this method. and how to do it yourself. They also do an experiment by having some willing people try out his method.

I thought it was really interesting and made a lot of sense to me. I wanted to get everyones input on this system as well as explain just what this system is all about. I have decided to try this system out in my own garden so I will be updating this form on my progress as I do so.
Here are the links to the videos posted on the movies web site. It explains the method and answers a lot of basic questions about it.
(If you are using a newer web version like Win8 you'll have to use compatibility view to watch the videos.)

The Covering:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/covering.html

Soil Preparation:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/soil_prep.html

Fertilization:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/fertilization.html

Irrigation:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/irrigation.html

Weed Control:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/weed_control.html

Pest Control:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/pest_control.html

Crop Rotation:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/crop_rotation.html

pH Issues:

https://backtoedenfilm.com/faqs/ph_issues.html

It seems that just posting the method doesn't explain everything as well as the movie. So I found a link to the whole movie for ya'll to watch if you want to.

Movie:

https://vimeo.com/28055108
Last edited by Royiah on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rainbowgardener
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No-Till is also the method of Fukoko, One Straw Revolution, which we have a discussion of in the Book Club Forum and of Ruth Stout, The No Work Gardening Book and other books, and others.

Anyone who gardens in raised beds is generally doing no till.
Last edited by rainbowgardener on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jardin du Fort
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rainbowgardener said:
Anyone who gardens in raised beds is generally doing no till.
I disagree. I have built three raised bed gardens, and double-dug each time. If that's not tilling, I don't know what is. Granted that once the beds are created, there is not a lot of digging maintenance, but the Jeavons style raised bed still gets maintained with the body-fulcrum-deep-fork tool, whatever it's called. I believe that no-till means just that, not digging the soil. Amendments are placed on top of the soil, whether they be plant waste, fertilizers (NO not that!), mineral supplements, compost, or whatever. There also seems to be a strong tendency to use ground cover in the no-dig culture. Fuokoka used white clover, whild Back-to-Eden uses mulch. I think there is a place for both.

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Royiah
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rainbowgardener: Um when I say no-till I mean it literally. All I'll be doing is layering the covering and or compost on top of what ever I have there.I believe most people do till their soil even in raised beds. Whether their adding compost or trying to amend their soil. Tilling and mixing are pretty much the same thing right? So I don't quite get what you mean by everyone does no-till... :?
Jardin du Fort: That's pretty much what this method is. Paul describes the bare earth as the same thing as us not having skin and animals no fur. Without a cover (or skin in our case.) it causes the soil to deteriorate and become unhealthy. And so without a cover there is no way the earth can protect itself.

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applestar
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I'm interested -- this film has been mentioned before -- but I haven't had the chance to look into it. (I'm using an iPad and can't see these videos, I think, but I'm sure there are other video sites to find out more.)

Is there a difference compared to Masanobu Fukuoka, Ruth Stout and Emilia Hazelip methods? Lasagna garden? (These were discussed in the Permaculture Forum.)

Most of my beds were all initially made by layering cardboard and organic materials directly on top of the lawn. I have since then double dug one bed to see if that would make a difference-- this is a bed that is in a low lying area where the layered materials had been unable to overcome the anaerobic conditions and the ground became swampy and "sour".

I think to some degree, initial success will depend heavily on underlying availability of good soil. Starting with "stripped to subsoil with a thin excuse for topsoil added back just enough to support sod" subdivision gets you off to a slow start. On the other hand, I can tell you that even after one year, the difference is pretty amazing and I think choosing right plants to grow (rather than trying to grow what you want) in the first couple of years can make a substantial difference -- you want to grow DEEP ROOTED crops. NOT pulling up the spent plants by the roots is essential.

On the other hand, although I don't till, some beds where I grew potatoes ended up getting pretty thoroughly dug up. When you rotate crops, eventually, ALL your beds will get dug up. I think the key here though, is that it only happens on the year when potatoes are planted, so depending on your schedule, it could be every 4-7 years. (Sweet potatoes and regular potatoes are planted on different rotation years)

I have also encountered a dilemma when wanting to sow seeds directly in the ground about what to do with the mulch and how to bury the seeds: I believe you get more even germination and neatly linear growth patterns with bare soil, so you have to get over that. Fukuoka's seedballs and/or covering the seeds with mulch seems to be ways of overcoming these issues, or only planting transplants (which is not very natural at all). Some seeds ARE buried by insects and animals in nature.

This season, I plan to experiment with hugelkultur method (which would normally involve initially digging a trench) in another low lying area. I probably wont dig very much if at all. It will depend on how much covering material I can get.

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rainbowgardener
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OK, I spoke too loosely.

Most people who do raised beds don't do any tilling once the bed is built, especially if it is boxed in. Some people till before building the bed, some don't.

Again, there are variations on how much digging people do in their beds. I have raised beds that have never seen a tiller, even at the beginning (a couple of them are on top of my concrete patio!, some I converted from lawn just by laying down newspaper and new soil on top).

I do turn them over a little in the spring with a trowel, turning the winter mulch in. Maybe I'm just not purist enough, but personally I don't think turning it over with a trowel is the same as running a mechanical tiller with high speed sharp blades through it.

But that does mean I have bare ground to plant in to, because I just buried the mulch. It stays bare until the seeds have sprouted/ transplants put in and then it gets mulched again. So I have bare soil a few weeks out of the year.

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Royiah
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applestar: Did you try to use your compatibility view? I'm pretty sure the ipad has that option.
I've never read the books and I don't know all that much about them. But I'll do my best to explain what the method is and does.
The BEG (Back to Eden Gardening) Never turns, tills or mixes the soil. From what I've seen so far I've never seen another method that follows this completely. The only time you move your covering is when you plant. But even that is moved very little. You only move just enough to get to the soil and plant there and leave it till they sprout.
You can't plant in the covering. You need to plant in the soil beneath it or the plants wont grow very well. As your seeds sprout and get bigger you move the covering back around it.
When adding compost or more covering all you do is lay it on top. That's it. Never till it in or your likely to end up with a compost pile and unable to grow anything.
I hope that helps.

The whole point of the BEG is to improve and build upon what you have. So having clay soil or rock solid soil isn't a problem. Just add a covering and it should improve.

rainbowgardener: No problem I think I spoke a little loosely too. I was just trying to explain that's what I meant. :P

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To Royiah,

Thank you for posting about the Back to Eden method. I now plan to use lots of woodchips and other mulch on my veggie garden. And I found a great source of free woodchips provided by our town. :clap: I am looking forward to a great harvest in my garden this year (or next). :)

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Royiah
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MObeek: Your very welcome. :) Glad to have helped you out! :D
I am currently still looking for a woodchip source. :/ Seems its not common in my area to chip the wood. So I may end up using some other type of covering. That or just buying some organic mulch from the store. or something like that! :lol:

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rainbowgardener
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You can buy a small home chipper/shredder for not very expensive. In fact, if you are willing to buy used from craigslist or Ebay, you can find them quite cheap. I love mine. Turn all the pruned branches, Christmas tree, downed trees, etc into wood chips. My little chipper only handles branches up to say 1.5" in diameter, but that's fine, the rest becomes firewood for the fire pit.

It's amazing how much wood my little city lot generates.

I have all the wood chips I ever want and none of the downed wood leaves the property....

The shredder is also good to run woody stemmed perennials through before putting them in the compost pile.

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Royiah
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rainbowgardener: haha yeah I know and I don't really care if its been used. But if I could afford a wood chipper I'd have fixed my car by now! lols :lol:
Thanks for trying to help though and it looks like I may have found a source. Just gotta contact them and see if they can deliver it to me all the way out here. :P Just have to wait and see. :)

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PunkRotten
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Can I use rabbit manure instead of wood chips as mulch?

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Royiah
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PunkRotten: not sure but he did say that anything works woodchips are just the best thing you can use.
I've never used the method before and I plan on using wood chips.
I suggest you try using it on a portion of your garden and see if it works well.

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New to the forum, although not to organic growing. Have to admit this "Back to Eden" complete no-till philosophy is a bit new to me. Obviously, have heard of no-till before, but never really paid much attention to it.

Seems like something worth testing out. I've always used organic fertilizers and have done pretty well, but, the more I learn about soil humus, soil ecology and such, the more I recognize that if you let nature "do her thing", fertilization and such become relative non-issues.

Thanks for providing this video. It's really pretty interesting. Thinking about posting it to my website. My customers will probably find it interesting as well (although, if they really take it to heart, I may not be selling much organic fertilizer as time goes on).

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shadylane
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I remember reading an article about only digging down a few inches of the top soil due to the microscopie fungi which is beneficial. Like some soilborne fungi help certain plants take up phosphorus and others manufacture nitrogen. In return the plants provide nutrients and a habitat for the helpful mycorrhizae or microcritters that live in and alongside plant roots we can't see.
The arbuscular fungi penetrates plant roots like a spider web of breanched hyphae or fungus roots rich spread out into the surrounding soil. Thes help extend the plant root system and gain access to nutrients and moisture. Thus the fungi gets it's share of carbohydrates produced by plants. All in all it's a part of soil nutrient.
Each time you add compost or mulch you add a starter colonies of helpful fungi to your soil.
When digging it causes the break of hyphal networks.

imafan26
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I read that digging the soil disturbs the soil structure (true, one should never dig in wet clay soil), and can disturb the balance of critters in the soil (soil web). Using tillers and walking on the soil can aerate and soften the upper layers but compact the lower layers that the tillers do not reach over time.

The whole idea of lasagna or no till is to have the soil nutrients get replenished by adding compost and mulch to the top and the earthworms and other soil organisms will drag down the nutrients they need for themselves, building up the soil over time. It is supposed to be a minimal work garden.

The one thing that I did get out of the video was that the soil still had to be good soil below. It had to be well drained and fertile to start with. Planting is not done in the mulch layer, but directly into the soil. The mulch layer helps with weed control but cannot support the growth of plants.

John Jeavons does something very similar and he calls it biointensive gardening. In biointensive gardening cover crops are also used to build soils with green manure. The eden film did not talk about using cover crops or even crop rotation.

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To Imafan26,

I think the man in Back to Eden stated that there is no crop rotation in nature so that is what he has been applying.

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Royiah
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imafan26:
Paul had bad soil to begin with and he does say so in the movie that it doesn't matter what kind of soil you have. He even shows you what his looked like before he applied his method. So I do believe your statement is wrong in that aspect.

The point of the process is to bring your soil back to what it should be and then improve upon it. And yes it is stated that you shouldn't plant in the mulch and instead plant in the soil underneath it. The reason for this is because the mulch hasn't become soil yet and will take awhile before it does. (kinda like compost takes a few months to a year before you can use it.) This method gets better as you use it year after year. (Paul States this in the movie.)

As for the cover crop method to me it seems a little complicated and more suited to big time farmers rather then back yard gardens Or small farms.
Every method is different just like every person is different it just depends on what works for you. personally I like this one and really just wanted others to know about it.

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In the first 3 minutes of the movie he says that he gardened traditionally on his farm for 17 years rototilling and adding organic matter and working hard to get a crop before he realized all he had to do was add wood chips, and all he needed was a rake. He did say the rocky areas were not even tillable so he put wood chips on top of that and eventually was able to plant in the organic matter that was added. So, you are correct parts of his farm did not have good soil.
This is an excellent film but it is very long.

Paul did say that nature did not recycle, and it does look that way if you are looking at a part of the environment over a short space of time.

If you look at what has happened over a long period of time, geological time, even nature recycles. What was once the ocean floor is now a desert in the middle of the present United States.

Invasive species that are introduced into fragile ecosystems overwhelm natives and become the new dominant species, especially if they are introduced into an environment that has no natural predators to control the invaders.

Biointensive farming works for backyard, small scale commercial and small comunal farms. The biointensive method is sustainable agriculture. It differs from the eden film in that beds are initially prepared by double digging. Parts of Paul Goutchi's farm was traditionally farmed for 17 years so it was deeply tilled, while other parts were just layered. His is akin to lasagna gardening.

Biointensive recycles garden and kitchen waste into compost and mulch for the garden and there is a planting plan that includes a combination of plants to keep the soil healthy and productive. Most of the organic matter on the farm is recycled and does not depend on an outside source of organic matter to sustain it.

There are many parts to biointensive gardening. This link is just the introduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPeAvYrfKkU

Both types of gardening practices use the principles of
building soil by adding organic matter
Organic matter in the soil reduces water consumption and makes controlling weeds easier.
Both systems embrace permaculture principles
nurturing the land
nurturing people
and sharing with community.

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Is the "no till" being referred to here the same as Lasagna Gardening or sheet mulching?

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I believe lasagna, no dig, no till, sheet mulching all share the same basic concepts. The soil is not disturbed, organic materials are laid on top. the only holes dug into the soil are for planting seeds. It is a way to control weeds and preserve the soil from erosion and not disturb the soil web while at the same time adding fertility and using less water.

All these methods may require some initial prep. Double digging once in preparing the first bed (biointensive). If you are building a raised bed or building on a layer of carboard over the soil, it takes initial inputs compost and mulch to plant in. You are not digging into the earth, but you are still creating a loose (well aerated) fertile medium to grow in. After the initial preparation, disturbing the soil by tilling is minimized in all of these methods.

Some methods lay green manures or crop residues down on the beds as mulch. Others take the garden residues compost in piles and bring it back again to the garden. Paul brings in layers and layers of wood chips that he has gotten free from tree trimmers. Sustainable gardeners would use what is available but will maximize recycling of materials on the farm and minimize waste and use of outside inputs.
Last edited by imafan26 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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That's what I thought. I'm somewhat familiar with the Back to Eden concepts but didn't have time yet to view the video. Just wanted to be certain. I lasagna/sheet garden and what a relief to discover that as opposed to the till methods.

I was told there are types of wood/wood chips/shreds to be avoided as mulches or as layering in the no till methods, fresh cedar or cedar, in general, being one of them. I believe it had something to do with the oils but don't remember the rationale. What about something like shredded cedar dog or pet bedding, for instance?

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There are types of wood that you probably would avoid like walnut. I do not know about animal bedding or cedar since they are not normally found here unless it is in a house or pet bedding. The only things that are really undesirable here are palms, coconut husks, nut sedge, and weeds. Palms mainly because they are difficult to shred and take up to 2 years to break down. Nut sedge and some weeds because they don't die.

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I garden in southeastern Louisiana over a heavy clay soil so I use raised beds.

I just looked at the Back to Eden DVD and several posts on YouTube. I am seriously considering using this technique. I have about one acre available (cleared and open to the sun) where I could use this no (or at least minimal) watering technique.

My concern is termites finding a home in the wood chip mulch. Is this a problem in gardens in the deep south? Is there an organic solution?

Art

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I haven't had problems with wood chip mulch from local trees. If they have thrived here, the termites have pretty much left them alone. The mulch I have is not deep mulch, it is only about 4 inches thick and over time it keeps breaking down and becomes soil.

danforge
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PunkRotten: Your rabbit manure will work great as a fertilizer additive but is not really mulch. You're looking to build up a very thick layer of mulch and wood chips. By doing this almost super mulch method you allow continuous composting of your base, restricts weeds , holds in moisture. No tilling, no compacting.

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Happy Days wrote:I was told there are types of wood/wood chips/shreds to be avoided as mulches or as layering in the no till methods, fresh cedar or cedar, in general, being one of them. I believe it had something to do with the oils but don't remember the rationale. What about something like shredded cedar dog or pet bedding, for instance?
Solution: You can use cedar without problems, just age the woodchips 1year before using them. Basically just pile it up and use it next year, this would be the most safe practise. I think I even mention this in the movie.

Edit: Should add that aging them a year would be a good practice on all kinds of woodchips. Softer woods like canes from bushes like raspberry and blueberry I just chop up and use on top as mulch directly seems to work fine.

Some wanna stretch it so far that you shouldnt use cedar, but we should all use what we have available and cedar may be a very good solution for many.
Last edited by Mr green on Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AnnaIkona
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Really wanna watch that documentary :-() where can I find it? Sorry if it's a bit off-topic

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Paul's initial video talks mostly about mulching, but he added straw and sheep manure. He tilled and added compost for 17 years before he started heavy mulching. The mulch retained moisture so he rarely had to water established plants. Although he did water very young plants. Later videos he also said that he does more permaculture type gardening because he keeps chickens so they are also fertilizing the soil.

It is a problem to use thick mulch in Hawaii too. Termites are everywhere in telephone poles, any wood that is piled and not moved or treated. They ate my garden trellis. And of course they like to eat houses. But termites are not the biggest problem with mulch. The biggest problems are the ants, centipedes, roaches, mice, and beetles that like to live in it. You have to be careful where the mulch comes from because some weeds survive mulching and composting and they don't go away unless you use Roundup repeatedly.

My type of soil is an oxisol which is not rich and is acidic. Adding composts improves the CEC and fertilizer makes it very productive. When I have done muching, mostly with leaves as I don't have that much access to wood chips, I had issues with compaction and red dirt is already hard and heavy to work and leaves slowed it from drying and clay cannot be worked wet. It required more fertilizer especially nitrogen to feed the decomposition of the mulch. Actually I do mulch my pathways, and that has made the most successful compost, but it takes a few years. I made the mistake more than once of tilling in uncomposted leaves and the soil fluffed which is why I put it in, but I needed to add additional fertilizer or the plants were much smaller. I did try no til, but it was hard to do since I have a lot of nut sedge and the soil can compact easily so easily that just adding compost on top was not enough to stop the weeds from taking over or getting good growth from the plants because of the heavy soil. I have experimented with using compost as mulch. It does not work that well for weed control, but I am hoping the earthworms and other denizens of the soil will come up and pull the compost down. So far, it has not afftected the growth of the plants one way or another, but it may just need more time.



Paul's original video. it is long almost 2 hours.
You can hear the chickens in the background.

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Oops :oops:
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Annalkona, this thread is about Back to Eden gardening so you are not off topic at all. Youtube has the full film. Search by Back to Eden Film, or search L2Survive Paul who has a lot of short videos of Paul and also a full documentary which is near 2 hours long. I converted to this method about four years ago and cannot believe how productive and simple it is. Don't get into making it difficult and over thinking the process. One thing I wanted to point out is what the wood chip covering is. It is aged ramial wood chips which are chipped up branches that contain about 80-90% needles and leaves. The green is what makes it compost so well. It is NOT chipped logs and barks. If you cannot get aged ramial wood chips, it will still work but you will probably have to add some fertilized and water the first year even if you ideally started the process in the fall. I only add about 3" each fall and a light dusting of maybe 1/2" of compost or composted manure on top. Don't start with any more than 4" of chips or it become too difficult to move the mulch back and plant in the dirt underneath. Adding a couple of inches of compost on top of the newspaper or cardboard before the wood chips are put down can be really helpful as well. Don't let people make it complicate as it is not difficult. Mr Green had a good post on the chips. Good luck and keep us posted.



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