rainbowgardener wrote:
Sorry OP is forum jargon -- Original Poster, the person who started the thread.
Check back on the Epsom salts thread. A new opinion posted defending Epsom salts as organic. I still won't use it, but it is useful to see the varying viewpoints on this. But certainly the other amendments we have mentioned - kelp, fish emulsion, bone meal, blood meal, etc are "organic" which I take to mean from life, not just from the earth (as in minerals). When I said compost (or compost tea) is best, I was responding to Bobberman's "The best all around ..." I.e. if you could only use ONE thing, what would it be. But of course, we aren't limited to only one thing.
I only use compost and mulch because I work towards the goal of having my garden be a closed system where nothing comes in from the outside and nothing leaves. I've pretty much got the nothing leaves part accomplished, but a ways to go on the nothing comes in part...
Everyone has to find their own path. I don't claim purity ... I use Miracle Grow potting soil for seed starting and in some containers, just not in the ground or where the chemicals will touch the earth. I also have used Round up at times on poison ivy. Not in the past few years. But the poison ivy is making a comeback since I gave up the Round up, so I'm not guaranteeing I might not do it again some time.
Can you explain your goal for us a little further about having a closed system? Why did you decide that and what do you have to gain from the nothing in - nothing out system? Would it have inherit disadvantages? Do you include only plants? Or also wildlife / critters / animals / bugs / birds ?
Well the wildlife bring themselves in and out, but I try to make my yard welcoming to them. It is a National Wildlife Federation certified Backyard Wildlife Habitat.
So what I am trying to create there is as close as I can to a little eco-system that is in balance. That is, it has birds and beneficial insects that eat enough of the plant killing insects so that crops don't get wiped out. But still has enough of the herbivorous insects to keep the beneficials around. It has natural bacteria that help fight the fungal diseases. The plants are strong and healthy with good defenses, so that they can fight off pests and diseases. The soil has bacteria and fungi and earthworms and whatever all else that breakdown all the nutrients so that the plants can use them. It has a big diversity of plants mixed together, so that there is no big mono-crop of anything to attract/spread all the pests /diseases. It has wildflowers that attract the pollinators and so on. I save seeds from the plants I grew, so that plants from those seeds are better adapted to my garden conditions.
So the way that works best is to mess with as little as possible. No artificial chemicals, no synthetic fertilizers, no ---cides. But in general, anything I add that doesn't belong there can unbalance things. And we have no idea how complex all those webs are. We don't know very much about what we are doing when we intervene in eco-systems.
Obviously my garden isn't very "closed." I bring in fall leaves from the outside to be browns in my compost pile. Since I eat a lot of things that don't come from my garden, there are a lot of other things that go in to my compost pile that aren't from the garden. Most all of that comes from local, leaves from my neighborhood, lots of produce from the local CSA farm, so hopefully it isn't too big an interference. And it can only be self-sustaining, if everything stays. Trees that fall, stay and break down where they are. Weeds go in the compost pile, brush is ground up for mulch which eventually goes back into the soil.... If all those things were taken away, the soil would be continually depleted as well as all the micro and macro organisms that feed on those things.
Does it have disadvantages? If I wanted to produce the most (for example) tomatoes I could in my little space, this is probably not the way to do that. But my space is very productive. The bed that is for tomatoes, also has broccoli and onions planted early and sometimes some carrots. The broccoli is pulled by the time the tomato plants are getting real big. There's parsley, marigolds and nasturtiums in there (also edible), last year some borage, By the time the tomatoes are done, I will plant some spinach and some garlic and more onions for next year. So I get a lot out of that one bed.
It's very low money input. I was going to say perhaps more labor intensive, but I don't really think so. Since I mulch, I don't do much weeding or watering, I don't spray, I don't hoe, it is basically no work gardening. I don't even turn my compost pile very often. So I can't think of much other disadvantages, but other people may want to comment on that. Since I don't bring in even natural inputs from the outside, like bone meal, kelp, fish emulsion etc perhaps I am not getting the best possible yields from my plants, but there's only two of us to feed and I am quite comfortable with what I get...
Perhaps another disadvantage is that my Backyard Wildlife Habitat does have wildlife, like groundhogs and raccoons. But most of the time I co-exist with them pretty well, by deer netting the things I really don't want them to eat. They leave a lot of other things alone. I have to protect my tomatoes, but I don't worry about the herbs and peppers, the critters don't bother them.
Hope this is at least a start at answering your questions.
Good response Rainbow! That is my newest goal for my garden too. I'm going to go as far as planting some crops for the compost pile next year. That is, if it rains enough this fall to be able to dig more beds.
You might want to put in a little bit of comfrey or stinging nettle for the compost pile. But basically I figure almost everything I grow ends up in the compost pile eventually. After frost comes, the tomato vines get chipped up and put in the pile along with the pepper plants and so on.
The only thing that would make it better, would be if I once again had a composting toilet. That would really help close the loop of returning as much as possible to the garden. I used to have one where I lived before and loved it. The fancy commercial ones are expensive and my honey is a bit too squeamish about the bucket system, though if I were on my own I would definitely do that.
not to go out on a limb with graphic stuff for the squeamish ones around here but I was having a funny / hypothetical conversation with my wife and I told her as a joke (I'm not sure if we would have a second compost pile yet for things that would not go in edibles IE flower beds, trees, the ground, etc... like meat / cat dog poo / humanure / grease / etc) anyway id have to do considerably more research before I undertook that, anyway, I made the joke that when we got our large property (our goal in ze life is to get ze big 5-10+ acre property to live in permanently, since right now we are in the city).. ultimately fulfilling our countryside love / gardening love / animals love.
well, again, before I go out on the 50th tangent I was joking to her that when we'd get our property I would buy biodegradable toilet paper (I guess they all are, but I figured this would mean processed to be good for the environment / without dyes and chemicals) and go doodoo in the property and bury it..
her reaction, while funny also was interesting, we were thinking this probably would only help out, provided we avoided vegetable, fruit, and other edibles.
I don't know if I necessarily even have a question or know where I'm going with this, I'm feeling pretty loopy at 2 AM but I'm hoping to hear you all's thoughts.
for meats and the stuff you don't want to add to the compost pile, its best fed to black soldier fly larvae. they are amazing decomposers/recyclers. and the larvae themselves make excellent poultry feed.
google search them and youll find tons of info on them.
I throw meat/poultry in various mulched areas of the yard and something gets it, including Turkey Vultures. And if they don't insects make a quick meal of it. I do throw bones in the compost --- calcium, among other nutrients.
hit or miss wrote:Good response Rainbow! That is my newest goal for my garden too. I'm going to go as far as planting some crops for the compost pile next year. That is, if it rains enough this fall to be able to dig more beds.
I also like Rainbows idea in obtaining a closed system garden. It to is a goal I would like to achieve. Although I need much more time with the know how, I'm just now getting the compost right Love the idea!
Love the idea!