HelpfulGardener.com

In the summer add shredded paper, often times you can tons of leftover newspapers free if you ask around. In winter hit up your local coffee shop and restaraunt, most places are more than happy to save you coffe grounds and foos scraps if you bring them a clean 5 gallon bucket

Until this year, I have always used Miracle Grow. Both as prepackaged potting mix and side dressing, and granules, and slow release...I am ashamed to say, I've used them all. This year however, I have a new house and a new garden. I planned all last year about how I would amend the soil. It was planted with red clover, then turned under. I also amended with compost. (and some well rotted chicken poo, but I don't have much of it so I just use it close to the plants) I HAVE NEVER HAD A BETTER, HEALTHIER LOOKING GARDEN than I have this year. I planted later than usual, and I'm getting produce earlier than I have EVER harvested before. With the exception of cucumber beetles , I've seen less bad guy bugs, and more beneficials. I am forever changed! I am an organic grower for life!

OH! I almost forgot! This winter I am seriously thinking about planting oats to cover my garden and recoup my nitrogen loss. I would also like to start a REAL compost heap, instead of buying it

Absolutely! Glad you came over from the dark side! ( just kidding everyone, no flame wars!) Start your compost pile NOW!

Why switch to oats from the clover you mentioned? Clover is nitrogen fixing, oats aren't.

LindsayArthurRTR wrote:OH! I almost forgot! This winter I am seriously thinking about planting oats to cover my garden and recoup my nitrogen loss. I would also like to start a REAL compost heap, instead of buying it

diversify!

Compost pile is a very good thing, but remember that having an active top few layers is very good. Recently, a few days after sheet mulching, soil I observed under the microscope went from sleepy to busy. Mature compost would not have given the same result - under the scope, it too is sleepy.

of course, an easy way to wake up your compost is to make tea. So everything!

Why switch to oats from the clover you mentioned? Clover is nitrogen fixing, oats aren't.

[url]https://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2002-10-01/The-Easiest-Cover-Crops.aspx?page=2[/url]

Reported C/N ratios were:

Crop Leaves Stems 50/50 By-dry wt.
Mix of leaves & stems

Crimson clover 10.1 31.9 15.2
Cereal rye 28.9 98.9 44.7
Wheat 13.1 86.5 22.9
Oat 12.8 78.8 21.7

[url]https://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/CCrop.exe/show_crop_28[/url]

Very interesting stuff (my husband behind me just informed me of my mega-nerd status...HA) I'm not sure that the clover does not need to be reseeded. In the event that that is neccessary, I would like to obtain some kind of harvest from my cover crop. And from the information I've read and studied, oats are nitrogen fixing, almost as well as red clover . After the oats are harvested, the stems and leaves can be used as mulch. Oh, and this...Mmmmmmmmmm...steel cut oats. Need I say more?

I've found that my neighbor's plants tend to take off quickly from the miracle gro, but then tend to peter-out mid-season while mine are a little slower off the bat, but go consistently right up until frost.

Looking forward to the experiment updates.

garden5 wrote:I've found that my neighbor's plants tend to take off quickly from the miracle gro, but then tend to peter-out mid-season while mine are a little slower off the bat, but go consistently right up until frost.

Looking forward to the experiment updates.

I feel that same way. Some of you saw my post a while back where I had a couple of tomatoes that looked very bad, I thought they were going to die for sure. Than I also had a post saying my neighbor planted some tomatoes and that they were getting way bigger than mine and way bushier, by 5-6 times. He used chemical fertilizers, I used compost and organic ferts when I used any.

Looking at them just now. My once sick plants look healthier than his, though not as bushy....YET! Mine are catching up and his all have bad leaf roll and are starting to not look so good. His plants are just over the short fence height and stayed there for a while where mine are just under the fence top. So I don't need to run an experiment it is being done for me.

Just so you know it will easy to watch the outcome of this as his plants are just on the other side of my fence where mine are.

Another thing to note is that my beans in my other plot are as big as his now. He planted his about 2 1/2 weeks before I did. Same scenario he used 12-12-12 and I used a bunch of compost/manure.

One more thing all of my cucurbits have way outpaced his as well. Even though, again, he planted before I did.

The only thing he has got on me right now is peppers mine are just now moving while he has large peppers on his. Though mine are coming around. He also bought some huge pepper plants where mine were small seedlings that I transplanted.

I am excited to see the results. Before I knew the difference I used MG on my house plants and flowers. My garden has been almost organic (just discovered epsom salt is not OG ) since I began last season. I am so happy with the results.

Last season I planted last, made a lot of mistakes, and didn't get a harvest until the end of July and I discovered that I still got as much as three times the amount of tomatoes and peppers as my neighbors who used MG.

This year I am ready My first tomatos turned red yesterday and I have more blooms and fruit than I can count. I haven't heard one peep from my neighbors about their tomatoes. The funny part is.... I grew all the tomatoes from seed. Mine and theirs. I gave them all my extra plants, at the same time I planted mine and gave them the strongest ones and kept the leggy ones to myself.

Maybe it's time to pull out "one man one cow" for this thread. Thank you guys for recommending this last season, I have shown it to everyone I know.

https://www.abundantlifefarm.com/index.php/Video20080630/Video

Compost should have some of the mycorrhizae in it, dec.

And I don't think organic plants WILL get as large and leafy as the MG plant, but don't see that as a downside; leaves are not the end goal here. Even bigger fruit are not the goal; nutrient densities, increased flower and fruit set, and final harvest totals are more of what I'm after.

I think of my neighbors one monster Big Boy of last year; a pasty tasteless gargantuan that was about all that one plant could handle, while my Brandywines were giving me three or four good uns every other day.

What do you want from your garden?

HG

That, HG, is my expectation from this experiment. I think the MG plant is going to grow faster and have more foliage but come harvest timethe organic plant will produce me more veggies that taste better.
Though I really think someone should tell my tomatoes in the garden about that considering they are HUGE and I can alreay tell they are planted WAY to close together. Stupid mushroom compost

The Helpful Gardener wrote:Compost should have some of the mycorrhizae in it, dec.

And I don't think organic plants WILL get as large and leafy as the MG plant, but don't see that as a downside; leaves are not the end goal here. Even bigger fruit are not the goal; nutrient densities, increased flower and fruit set, and final harvest totals are more of what I'm after.

I think of my neighbors one monster Big Boy of last year; a pasty tasteless gargantuan that was about all that one plant could handle, while my Brandywines were giving me three or four good uns every other day.

What do you want from your garden?

HG

I used to be a MG gardener and went completely organic this year, and my plants are growing way faster than when I was using chemical fertilizers. I think that if done right (compost, compost tea, mycorrhizal fungus inoculation, protozoa soup, etc.) organic can grow much faster than with chemical fertilizers. Also I'm not sure if the amount of mycorrhizae in compost would be nearly as much as if you were inoculating with spores. When I transplanted my tomatoes and peppers into the garden the roots were completely covered in mycorrhizae, I'm not so sure you could quickly accomplish that with just compost and compost tea.

dix, you should consider culling some of those tomatoes if they really are too close. When their roots bump they don't produce as well. Maybe they haven't crowded, or won't, and your idea of "too close" is not as close as some closes I have seen?

seriously, some gardeners have this inability to thin out plants. It's almost like hoarding. But plants. Hoarding plants. You get half the produce out of twice the plants, and they are sitting ducks for infestation. Instead of a perilous jungle, monoculture presents a smorgasbord as far as the mind can see, from a pest's perspective (below ground, on the ground, or in the air). So if you can, make some room and get some more species and families going, and thin those out too.

Depends on how good your compost is, dec... but your point is taken; if we utilize the whole bag of organic tricks, we can get pretty amazing results. I do pretty darn well and I don't do half the stuff some of you do...

Good points toil; I agree... if you want to crowd a little, crowd with a different species occupying a different niche...


HG

*cough* -stands up-
My name is dix and I have a tomato problem
Though I must say Toil, being called a plant hoarder made my lmao.

*cough* stands up...
I confess, I can not kill a seedling that I planted on purpose. I may move it many times, but use scissors to snip it off... I can't.

It may be in the weirdest excuse for a pot, but I won't snip it off!

Is there hope for me, doc?

I don't think we need help, I think more people should be like us plant loving gardeners and the world will be a better place.
Though I am beginning to realize how much more attached I am to my self seeded plants.
I might cry come fall when I cut them all off and return to staring at brown dirt.........do any winter crops grow in WI-zone 4?

I should also comment, organic peppers is doing better and starting to grow more nicely since I dug it out and redid the soil. There is a such thing as too much of a good thing (mushroom compost does not drain for squat)

Zone 4 you could plant parsnips and leave them over the winter to sweeten. But I'm not sure how much of anything could grow with the ground solid and snow on top.

Ozark Lady wrote:*cough* stands up...
I confess, I can not kill a seedling that I planted on purpose. I may move it many times, but use scissors to snip it off... I can't.

It may be in the weirdest excuse for a pot, but I won't snip it off!

Is there hope for me, doc?

well if you are moving the pants you obviously are organizing and conserving, and not hoarding.

lol its about a third of gardeners I think, and about 90% of new gardeners. I remember the first time I thinned, and it just felt so wrong. Like, I paid for those seeds, man! Sometimes I wonder why they bother with the spacing recommendations on seed packets and websites. Once I started doing it I realized it was not so bad, and that you can eat many of the shoots (not tomatoes, that will definitely make you sick). From peas to rutabaga to little radish greens and lettuce, it's all very tasty.

like HG said, if you have different species growing together, it can be very close. Then, you have less thinning to worry about.

I'm fiddling with seedballs now, and it seems to me that is a great way to sowing with less thinning. You decide when you make the seedballs how dense you want the seeds, and then again when you chuck them. You can also combine species so they are automatically together. Plus the ants don't steal your seeds so much (although ants stealing seeds is cool to watch.

OL, why not start with the weeds? Like a helpful annual weed that normally chokes things when left alone. I've tried it this season with the lamb's quarters. They get much bigger than I'm used to seeing there, and they seem to fend off mugwort and such. But without thinning, they look stressed and they grow slow. Purple deadnettle has been even better at fighting mugwort, and it is very beautiful IMO. But if you are moving them, you know it's about spacing already. I would just mention that pulling them out to move them is a disturbance you could reduce easily if you wanted.

I snip now, and I leave the "carcass" right on the ground where it was growing.

There's a lot of us gardeners that need to stand up at the Plantaholics Anonymous meeting...

But not me. I'm good. I can quit plants anytime I want...

HG

Lamb's quarters I know.

I read about them, so I pursued them until I got them.
Now they are the noxious weeds to me. But, my goats love them.
I do pull alot of weeds for the goats.

I need to go google mugwort, I have no clue what it is.

Mugwort is an artemisia [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_vulgaris]A. vulgaris[/url]), that like the majority of the genus can be rather invasive... the weed is a non-native invasive...

Lambsquarters ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenopodium_album]Chenopodium album[/url]) seems to be a circumboreal found nearly everywhere, and it's exact origins are unclear, but Jared Diamond notes it as the mast food source for the natives of the Northeast before the arrival of corn (about 650-800 years ago). Native enough for me, and I trust the good doctors archeobotany more than the Wiki.

Purselane ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portulaca_oleracea]Portulaca oleracea[/url]) is likewise a circumboreal with a spotty past and questions as to its native status; it has certainly been here a long time, and seems to predate Columbus, so I'll settle for native there as well...

The mugwort is noted as the wormwood of abisinthe fame, so the nervous damage noted with the liquer can be assumed to go along with the herb; I wouldn't eat tons of it. And the oxalin in the purselane is a noted contributor to kidneystones, so easy on that, too. But I've been eating lambsquarters by the pound and loving it; toil if you crop them with a sickle, leaving some lower leaves, they resprout and branch, allowing the little ones around them to fill in. Works great.

HG

Ozark Lady wrote:*cough* stands up...
I confess, I can not kill a seedling that I planted on purpose. I may move it many times, but use scissors to snip it off... I can't.

It may be in the weirdest excuse for a pot, but I won't snip it off!

Is there hope for me, doc?

lol the more comment of yourse I read the more I wounder if we were sister separated at birth (and changed skin tones along to way lol) I snip only if I have to for the best of the strong of the two (and if I can't salvage the extra) But mostly I will take the extra plants and offer them to friends and family and if they don't want it I'll offer it free on CL or freecycle, and if THEY don't want it then I finally give in and stick it someplace it will be happier. lol Me and my stinkin green thumbs... the DH had to put in a whole new bed this spring for all my left over's lol.

Ah good tip hg. Thanks!

The Helpful Gardener wrote:There's a lot of us gardeners that need to stand up at the Plantaholics Anonymous meeting...

But not me. I'm good. I can quit plants anytime I want...

HG

the first step is admission, we can help you through it.

I can't believe it,
I've been pulling lambs quarter for decades....
Never thought it could be eaten.
I have some small ones in the garden now.
Looks like a meal in a couple weeks.

Yeah, it's funny how many "weeds" are good food. I am leading a weed walk tomorrow (fundraiser for purchasing an organic farm as a teaching center) where we will be talking about purselane and dock and orache and jewelweed and a bunch of stuff you have been weeding when you could have just been munching...

Eat the weeds!

HG

Jewelweed? The stuff with the hollow stems that when cut ooze a fluid that is soothing for poison ivy? Not something it would have ever occurred to me to eat. What part of it is edible and is actually something anyone would ENJOY eating or just that you can eat it and nothing bad happens?

Enjoyment is a relative term and I will not subject anyone to my interpretations, but you can eat the whole plant up until about six inches tall; after that the stems get tough (fairly high mineral contents are healthy, but chewy). After that I take just leaves. Best as a cooked green; steam for five minutes, butter, salt and pepper to taste...

And I have never seen MG weeds; certainly organic...

HG

I kind of wonder about the theory of crowded tomatoes producing the same amount of tomatoes as fewer plants, but more widely spaced.

I read of a study that was done on a commercial tomato farm overseas and they took three or four patches and planted each one with a different spacing of tomatoes: 1 ft., 18 in., 2 ft. (well something to that effect).

They then looked at the yield (in tons, of course) and found that the patch with the further spacing had the most tomatoes per plant, but the lowest yield overall. On the other hand, the plot with the closest spacing had the lowest yield per plant, but the highest overall. Now, this tells me that you get more tomatoes off the extra plants you squeeze in than you loose from lowered production on each plant.

I think that study would need to be repeated several times over many years, and with different varieties in order to be proven true.
I had three plants last year and got about two five gallon buckets of toms from just those plants. They were 18 inches apart in their own bed (with some flowers) behind the house. Lots of people had squat for toms last year as the season just wasn't great.
So many variables take place in growing tomatoes, it's hard to justify how or why some plants do well and some don't. Water, fertilizer, light, soil quality, disease, etc all factor in somewhere and you can repeat the exact same process year after year and get a different result every time.

I stand corrected!

... for tomatoes.


not for almost everything else though.

Thanks G5. Now I got some new knowledge.

Now the question mutates - If we look at those same tomatoes, and compare tight spacing with polyculture, not just over one season but over 100 seasons, what do you think we would get then?

G5, that is just from plants that have the same nutritional needs and like root systems...

What if we start using different plants with say, shallower root sytems? Completely different nutritional needs? Now we can shoehorn crops together even closer...

Check [url=https://www.dervaesgardens.com/]THIS[/url] out...

SIX tons of food every year on a tenth of an acre!

Amazing! Try that, monocultural row cropping farmers...

HG

It is totally awesome and amazing, but you don't need to exaggerate to make it so!

"The yard has over 350 varieties of edible and useful plants and now grows over 6,000 pounds (3 tons) of produce annually"

3 tons not 6 tons. Still .1 acre is 4356 square feet. They are producing over 3 tons of food from a garden about 50' by 90' awesome!

Of course it is southern california, meaning they are growing things year around, but it is way cool that they can do that.

Oops, .

Sorry RBG, I really did know that and just brainfarted...

But they feed themselves almost entirely (dips to a low of 65% efficiency in winter (such as it is in SoCal ), and have enough left to supply restaurants and still offer up produce for sale to the general public!

Ya gotta be impressed... This is the power of polyculture...

HG

The Helpful Gardener wrote:G5, that is just from plants that have the same nutritional needs and like root systems...

What if we start using different plants with say, shallower root sytems? Completely different nutritional needs? Now we can shoehorn crops together even closer...

Check [url=https://www.dervaesgardens.com/]THIS[/url] out...

SIX tons of food every year on a tenth of an acre!

Amazing! Try that, monocultural row cropping farmers...

HG

I wasn't just trying to prove ya wrong, Toil; I was mostly just throwing out my findings and wondering what anyone had to say about it.

How can you get the plants even closer together if you introduce different varieties? Are you talking about being able to put the two varieties closer together than being able to put the same varieties closer together? This is probably just a simple concept that I'm just not getting for some dumb reason.

Thanks.

Yeah, think about the 3 sisters as a classic polyculture eg. beans and corn and squash all grown together. You need to space the corn stalks at least a foot apart and say three feet between rows. If all you are growing is corn, a 10'x 10' bed produces say around 30 corn plants. Now you grow the 3 sisters together, plant bean plants growing up the corn and squash vines wandering through all the spaces between the corn stalks. Now the same 10x10 bed produces the same 30 corn plants AND a bunch of beans AND some squash.

Key is planting together things that use different parts of the space, say root crops and fruiting crops, tall things and low things. And nitrogen fixers like the beans are always good to have in the mix, so that not everything is competing for the same nutrients.

INdeed, RBG!

HG

Yeah, think about the 3 sisters as a classic polyculture eg. beans and corn and squash all grown together.

This year I did much research before planting. I planted the 3 sisters together. (I did summer squashes on one side and melons and pumpkins on the other) Only I read in several books and magazines that if plant 5x5 blocks of corn that are planted 6" apart with pole beans spaced 6" apart. you'll get both better pollination (for the corn) and better fertilization (from the beans for the corn). I also read that sunflowers and dill are a deterrent for some pests that affect corn,(and an attractant to their enemies ) so I alternated blocks of corn and sunflowers. I just planted like 5 or six dill plants randomly So here's what I did, and so far so good. Here's what it looked like 3 weeks ago.
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff053.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff050.jpg[/img]
I planted my succession plantings on the other side and alternated blocks of squash and sunflowers. It's cramped, but all is well. The pole beans have tons of beans(not as many as my 2 rows of bush beans ) The corn has grown as high as me, 5'8" and they have tassles growing and, they are starting to form cobs . I have also noticed that before the beans REALLY started growing, my corn was starting to fall over with the winds and storms we've been having. Now that the beans are off and running (EVERYWHERE ) they seem to be giving the corn some stability as well. And the blocks of sunflowers...HOLY edited ! How tall are these things gonna get?! No heads on them yet but they are prolly at least 8-9 feet tall!
Here's what it looks like today !
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff147.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff146.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff145.jpg[/img][/img]

EDIT: I never got anything that looked like this with MG

OK, I get it now. I guess I have done this before as I have gown basil in-between my tomatoes. Say, I wonder if beans wouldn't work out trellised on tomato plants?