The experiment.

[Dixana]

I think that study would need to be repeated several times over many years, and with different varieties in order to be proven true.
I had three plants last year and got about two five gallon buckets of toms from just those plants. They were 18 inches apart in their own bed (with some flowers) behind the house. Lots of people had squat for toms last year as the season just wasn't great.
So many variables take place in growing tomatoes, it's hard to justify how or why some plants do well and some don't. Water, fertilizer, light, soil quality, disease, etc all factor in somewhere and you can repeat the exact same process year after year and get a different result every time.

[Toil]

I stand corrected!

... for tomatoes.


not for almost everything else though.

Thanks G5. Now I got some new knowledge.

Now the question mutates - If we look at those same tomatoes, and compare tight spacing with polyculture, not just over one season but over 100 seasons, what do you think we would get then?

[The Helpful Gardener]

G5, that is just from plants that have the same nutritional needs and like root systems...

What if we start using different plants with say, shallower root sytems? Completely different nutritional needs? Now we can shoehorn crops together even closer...

Check [url=https://www.dervaesgardens.com/]THIS[/url] out...

SIX tons of food every year on a tenth of an acre!

Amazing! Try that, monocultural row cropping farmers...

HG

[rainbowgardener]

It is totally awesome and amazing, but you don't need to exaggerate to make it so!

"The yard has over 350 varieties of edible and useful plants and now grows over 6,000 pounds (3 tons) of produce annually"

3 tons not 6 tons. Still .1 acre is 4356 square feet. They are producing over 3 tons of food from a garden about 50' by 90' awesome!

Of course it is southern california, meaning they are growing things year around, but it is way cool that they can do that.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Oops, .

Sorry RBG, I really did know that and just brainfarted...

But they feed themselves almost entirely (dips to a low of 65% efficiency in winter (such as it is in SoCal ), and have enough left to supply restaurants and still offer up produce for sale to the general public!

Ya gotta be impressed... This is the power of polyculture...

HG

[garden5]

G5, that is just from plants that have the same nutritional needs and like root systems...

What if we start using different plants with say, shallower root sytems? Completely different nutritional needs? Now we can shoehorn crops together even closer...

Check [url=https://www.dervaesgardens.com/]THIS[/url] out...

SIX tons of food every year on a tenth of an acre!

Amazing! Try that, monocultural row cropping farmers...

HG

I wasn't just trying to prove ya wrong, Toil; I was mostly just throwing out my findings and wondering what anyone had to say about it.

How can you get the plants even closer together if you introduce different varieties? Are you talking about being able to put the two varieties closer together than being able to put the same varieties closer together? This is probably just a simple concept that I'm just not getting for some dumb reason.

Thanks.

[rainbowgardener]

Yeah, think about the 3 sisters as a classic polyculture eg. beans and corn and squash all grown together. You need to space the corn stalks at least a foot apart and say three feet between rows. If all you are growing is corn, a 10'x 10' bed produces say around 30 corn plants. Now you grow the 3 sisters together, plant bean plants growing up the corn and squash vines wandering through all the spaces between the corn stalks. Now the same 10x10 bed produces the same 30 corn plants AND a bunch of beans AND some squash.

Key is planting together things that use different parts of the space, say root crops and fruiting crops, tall things and low things. And nitrogen fixers like the beans are always good to have in the mix, so that not everything is competing for the same nutrients.

[The Helpful Gardener]

INdeed, RBG!

HG

[LindsayArthurRTR]

Yeah, think about the 3 sisters as a classic polyculture eg. beans and corn and squash all grown together.

This year I did much research before planting. I planted the 3 sisters together. (I did summer squashes on one side and melons and pumpkins on the other) Only I read in several books and magazines that if plant 5x5 blocks of corn that are planted 6" apart with pole beans spaced 6" apart. you'll get both better pollination (for the corn) and better fertilization (from the beans for the corn). I also read that sunflowers and dill are a deterrent for some pests that affect corn,(and an attractant to their enemies ) so I alternated blocks of corn and sunflowers. I just planted like 5 or six dill plants randomly So here's what I did, and so far so good. Here's what it looked like 3 weeks ago.
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff053.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff050.jpg[/img]
I planted my succession plantings on the other side and alternated blocks of squash and sunflowers. It's cramped, but all is well. The pole beans have tons of beans(not as many as my 2 rows of bush beans ) The corn has grown as high as me, 5'8" and they have tassles growing and, they are starting to form cobs . I have also noticed that before the beans REALLY started growing, my corn was starting to fall over with the winds and storms we've been having. Now that the beans are off and running (EVERYWHERE ) they seem to be giving the corn some stability as well. And the blocks of sunflowers...HOLY edited ! How tall are these things gonna get?! No heads on them yet but they are prolly at least 8-9 feet tall!
Here's what it looks like today !
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff147.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff146.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac153/LindsayArthurRTR/gardenandhousestuff145.jpg[/img][/img]

EDIT: I never got anything that looked like this with MG

[garden5]

OK, I get it now. I guess I have done this before as I have gown basil in-between my tomatoes. Say, I wonder if beans wouldn't work out trellised on tomato plants?

[The Helpful Gardener]

THAT'S what I'm talking about Lindsay! And your thinking about intercropping another plant guild in between for more control is inspired. You are my new hero; GREAT job!

And of course you never got anything like this with MG because you never thought about it; the chemical way never thinks, just sprays, kills, and doesn't even ask the questions afterwards, let alone before. You used your best gardening tool; your brain! I am so proud of you!

Lindsay gets a gold star, and a whole bunch of healthy fruits and veggies. Y'all pay attention; this is how you do it...



G5, try the zucchini in between the maters; keeps down the weeds and doesn't compete. An old Italian polyculture...

You all make me happy to be here... all this teaching and learning and sharing...I'm getting teary...

HG

[LindsayArthurRTR]

LOL Shucks! Thank you very much! I am so very proud of it!

G5, try the zucchini in between the maters; keeps down the weeds and doesn't compete. An old Italian polyculture...

If I had squash between my maters, I wouln't be able to get to the stuff to harvest.

Other than weed smothering, is there any other kind of relationship between the two?

I have collard greens between my "may-moes" cause I read they repel each other's pests. I think I read in M.E.N. that the combination can reduce pests in each by up to 40%. Not sure how accurate that is... but I did it anyway

[The Helpful Gardener]

Yeah Lindsay I use raised rows so there is always access, more surface area (raised rows have sides) and I never need to till again (EVER!)

We should talk sometime...

M.E.N. ?

HG

[LindsayArthurRTR]

Sorry, Mother Earth News.

I am already thinkin about raised rows. Just a matter of getting the materials to do it. I started from fresh this year, so I pretty much had to till. I have done a lot of reading about layered gardening, and I'm thinking of experimenting with that too. Again, materials are the problem.

I would love to chat. Hit me up on facebook. Link is in my signature.

[Decado]

You really don't need materials to make raised rows/mounds. All you need to do is get a metal rake or even a shovel and rake dirt up into the rows from the areas you plan on walking in and voila, raised rows.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Right on Dec!

See, Lindsay if you use boards or cinder blocks or rocks or what ever, you have increased depth but not surface area...

By simply mounding and covering with a green or hay mulch, now you have sides where you can plant lettuce, basil, onions, marigolds (to help with nematodes) or whatever else, adding more root mass, which helps hold soil, and adds lots more carbon to your soil... no more tilling (I just stick a manure fork and gently 'lift' the soil in spring before planting) means less weeds, less gassing off of carbon and richer soils (Roots are the most carbon intense part of any plant and I just cut plants flush insterad of pulling out roots).

Studies have shown that roots of new plants will follow the channels left by old decomposing roots every time, given a chance. And added carbon means higher Cation Exchange Capacities, a fancy way of saying that the soil holds more nutrients (carbon is dark, which is why rich dark soils grow better plants).

And it's less work...

So raised no till beds are easier, better for the plants, better for the soil, and better for the planet (or your back, depending on how you till). And mounded instead of sided means more space and less money. Cool, huh?

HG

[LindsayArthurRTR]

Very Might have a problem finding organic hay. Can you use straw?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Yeah straw is actually preferable... (no seeds)

HG

[garden5]

Doesn't straw actually take some nitrogen as it breaks down? I thought that's why hay was preferred because it was a "green" mulch that added nutrients.

Zucchini in the tomatoes.....brilliant! Say, how far apart do the toms have to be spaced to do that? At least 3 ft between plants, wouldn't you say?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Straw is a high nitrogen and actually imparts nitrogen as it bereaks down unlike a higher carbon item that takes more bacteria to break it down, therefore using more nitrogen (don't forget that bacteria are high nitrogen items at 5:1 C:N).

Sure fungi does most of the break down for wood but they are producing ammonium which is pretty high nitrogen itself and needs bacteria to break down to plant soluble forms of N for our row crops and such (woodland plants have adapted to use ammonium...)

HG

[garden5]

Straw is a high nitrogen and actually imparts nitrogen as it bereaks down unlike a higher carbon item that takes more bacteria to break it down, therefore using more nitrogen (don't forget that bacteria are high nitrogen items at 5:1 C:N).

Sure fungi does most of the break down for wood but they are producing ammonium which is pretty high nitrogen itself and needs bacteria to break down to plant soluble forms of N for our row crops and such (woodland plants have adapted to use ammonium...)

HG

Thanks for the tip. I guess I got some bad info when I heard that straw was high-carbon.

Anyway, I'd better save my question for the permaculture forum as this thread's getting a little off-topic.

Any new updates on the experiment, Dix?

[The Helpful Gardener]

Good point, G5, and apologies to OP... I'm incorrigible...

Well, we can chalk this up to a discussion of the intricacies of the organic method, but we'd just be making excuses...

Have we any updates, Dix?

HG

[garden5]

My neighbor's MG tomatoes are twice the size of my organic ones and thicker, too. However, mine have just as many flowers as theirs do, so I guess you could say that the MG affects the stem and leave growth more so than the fruit growth.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Right G5, as Fukuoka-sensei used to tell folk when they asked after his half sized rice plants "I am not interested in growing leaves"... his yields were still every bit of his neighbors, and better tasting and better for you...

Hai, sensei...

HG

[Dixana]

It's chilly and has been raining FOREVER, yet that stinkin MG plant keeps growing like a weed. BUT the organic plant is not as yellow and wilty from the weather so HA Miracle Grow.
No pictures right now. The backyard kind of needs to be mowed and it's really wet so until it dries out some (meaning next week by looks at the forecast) I'm not getting soaked feet/pants. (Yep it is that bad shame on me for spending the two dry days on the back of the bike with my hubby )

[garden5]

It's chilly and has been raining FOREVER, yet that stinkin MG plant keeps growing like a weed. BUT the organic plant is not as yellow and wilty from the weather so HA Miracle Grow.
No pictures right now. The backyard kind of needs to be mowed and it's really wet so until it dries out some (meaning next week by looks at the forecast) I'm not getting soaked feet/pants. (Yep it is that bad shame on me for spending the two dry days on the back of the bike with my hubby )

It ain't over till the last fruit is plucked. Like HG said, the size of the plance isn't always indicative of how much fruit it will yield. I'll be interested in seeing which plant gives the first fruit, the highest over-all yield, and gives fruit the longest. My neighbor's MG plants seem to give out sooner than mine do (though I did plant mine small and late last year, so go figure ).

[Dixana]

I am currently rather disgusted with the miracle grow experiment. The MG plant has HUGE leaves and not one single blossom Every tom and pepper in the ground garden has blossoms and the organic experiment plant has more normal, healthy looking leaves. No blossoms on it either, but I wouldn't expect blossoms on a plant its size yet.
Presently, I'm wondering if MG contains too much N or something. I used the junk for veggies!
Since I used my red pepper plants for the experiment I'll be pretty irrate if I don't get any peppers off this plant! (reds are my favorite)

[The Helpful Gardener]

A sacrifice for science to be recognized by all, Dixana

My peppers are still small but budding and flowering; one of the chilies is only a foot tall but has a full size fruit (I will be plucking and such tomorrow so it will likely come off in favor of growth and more blossoms). I have taken the pledge, so no experiments outside of organics for me...

HG

[garden5]

I've seen that a lot with MG plats; it seems like the stuff mostly feeds the stems and leaves.

Well, HG, there are still a lot of all-organic experiments to be done . Like, does planting tomato seedlings deeply really make a difference in growth? That's one I'm trying this year.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Oh, I did that one already years back and I don't do it any other way now. You get a bigger, deeper root system which evens out the watering needs so you get less catfacing and cracking, you get a much sturdier plant (my Brandywines had stems like my wrists last year) and I think you get more fruit (wasn't very scientific about recording differences so that's anecdotal; the kiss of death word in science).

But I'm very interested to see if you agree...

HG

[Dixana]

My pepper plants are not very big either (aside from the MG plant ). I think for me it's heat related, they like it hot and we had two solid weeks of cloudy, wet, nasty weather. It's only been getting warm and sunny the last week or so, hopefully they'll catch up now.

[garden5]

We had a cool, wet summer last year and nobody's peppers did well. Once you get some steady heat, they'll really perk up.

I have to check and see which ones were planted deep, HG, then I'll get back to ya on the tomato experiment. .

[Dixana]

STILL no blossoms on that stinkin MG plant! I have japs and peppers almost ready to pick on plants planted in the garden AFTER these plants! There are severtal large buds on the organic despite the fact it is 1/4 the size of the MG plant. If nothing else this experiment has reinforced to me what a giant waste of money miracle grow really is.
Top soil($1.13 a bag) + compost(free with very little effort and a lot less trash to take out) = better plants, better soil, more food vs Miracle Grow ($8+ a bag) lots more foliage, less food, contaminates the soil with chemicals......
Yep. Not impressed. If anything, I'm annoyed.

[garden5]

Big plants don't always mean big yields. Have you been giving ACT to the organic plant?

It just goes to show, the more we try to substitute our own systems for those of nature, the results decline.

[Dixana]

Well first things first, I have to confess that I haven't been in the garden in almost a week We've had a lot going on.
But I was out there tonight and BOTH plants have no foliage from midplant down.
I have no idea what happened. The organic plant seems fine aside from having no leaves, the MG plant has some yellowing. We've had some pretty hot/humid weather and some INSANE storms (60 mph winds, flooding, etc) but......no bottom leaves?
I should also note the blossoms have disappeared from my organic with no signs of peppers and there IS a pepper about the size of a golf ball.
Weird weird weird.....

[The Helpful Gardener]

Sounds like insectoids...

HG

[garden5]

Is the organic plant the one with the pepper? Does the MG one have any peppers on it?

About the tomato plant experiment: The 2 plant that were buried a little deeper are actually smaller than the other 4 . However, 1 has a large cluster of fruit on it and the other has the single largest fruit in the whole garden, so that may have something to so with it. Also, I think I may have accidentally knocked off a growing tip or two while I was pruning, so that may have contributed to it.

How deep did you bury your "deep" ones? Did you bury them to the top cluster or just 2 or 3 inches above the root ball? I planted them about 3 in. above the root-ball.

[Decado]

I planted mine a foot deep and the plants are 7 feet tall now with lots of fruit.

[garden5]

If I planted mine that deep, I'd have the tops of the plants 4 in. underground .

[Dixana]

I have decided to scrap this experiment for the year it was a complete bust. Between the freak downpouring rains followed by massive humidity and heat, then the stupid earwigs I don't think either plant is going to produce for squat. They both have two peppers but given their size I'm doubtful they will even get very large.
The only container plant I have that is doing ok is my one surviving wild boar berkely tie dye and I think that is only because I have babied the heck out of it.
I will redo this experiment next year. Though next year there will be another addition. Organic seed started in worm castings MG seed started in MG seed starter.