New to Organic Gardening

[wwiding]

Hey I'm new to Organic Gardening, and don't have much experience in any other gardening. I decided that I would start a garden this year, with the help of my cousin and a few other family members. I don't know how to get started, but it's going to be on my grandparents property and they don't care how much space I take up. I'm semi unemployed and can't spend a whole lot of money, but I do have shovels and other equipment around, along with old fencing to protect the area from the wild animals around here.

Any help you can provide would be appreciated, I plan on growing a lot, and sharing it with friends and family. My grandparents also raise birds so I could probably use the droppings in the gardening, even if I have to compost it first. I live in Michigan. Feel free to ask questions, and give advice. I'll keep every one updated as I go, I'm just trying to get a plan ready before growing season.

[wwiding]

Alright I've been looking at seeds, and I know what plants I want to grow, this may change as I do more research but for now, heres a list.

Asparagus
Yellow Beans
Green Beans
Bell Pepper
Purple Bell Pepper
Peas
Green Zucchini
Golden Zucchini
Tomato
Grape Tomato
Smell Red Cherry Tomato

I'm not really sure of the varieties of each type of plant, but heres my list any way. It seems like this would be manageable.
As it stands there will only be a few people eating off of this.

[rainbowgardener]

Sounds great! The peas can go directly in the ground "as soon as the soil can be worked" which for you in MI is probably pretty soon! Then provide a little trellis for them to grow on. Just sticks for verticals with strings across for horizontals is fine. If you have plenty of seeds, save some and do succession plantings, plant more 2 wks later and then more 2 wks after that, to extend your harvest.

Asparagus is hardly ever grown from seed. People usually buy crowns (which are well developed roots). Even so you really can't eat much asparagus until the 3rd year after you plant it. Growing from seed would add an extra year to that. It's a long term project!

Start all your tomatoes and peppers now, indoors with lights (read some of the seed starting threads that are going now for more info), so that you will have plants ready to put out when all danger of frost is passed. The peppers are slow to sprout and to grow, so you really want to get them started like yesterday!

The beans and zucchini can be direct planted in the ground after all danger of frost AND the soil has warmed up some.

And if you want to be doing organic gardening, the FIRST thing to do is start your compost pile. If you aren't familiar with compost do some reading in our compost forum, tons of info!

Good Luck with it... keep us posted how everything goes.

[wwiding]

Hey thanks for the reply, you've provided plenty of help. As soon as the snow melts I'll dig up a spot for the gardening. My grandparents used to garden on this land and from what I hear it's really good for it. It looks like I'll hold off on the asparagus, I'm mainly looking for high yields for now.

Maybe I'll grow some black watermelon too, just for fun. Have you got any suggestions for weird vegetables that may grow well in Michigan, but isn't too hard to take care of?

[wwiding]

Looks like I might be buying the peppers and tomato's already started this year, because I don't have room to grow the plants in the house.

[farmerlon]

Hey I'm new to Organic Gardening, and don't have much experience in any other gardening. I decided that I would start a garden this year, ...

Congratulations on getting started !
I hope you will enjoy the process of continually learning and trying new things, as much as I have.

When you're just starting out, try to resist the temptation to take on too many plants and projects right away. In my opinion, it's best to grow a few things well ... doing too much in the first year can lead to frustration for some folks.

The advice about Composting is right on ... take good care of your soil, and it will take care of you!

There is a lot of great advice and discussion on this forum ...enjoy the ride!

[Decado]

You should read the book "Teaming With Microbes" if you want to get into organic gardening. This is the first year I'm going organic and that book is probably the best thing you can read to learn about organic gardening, it's great stuff.

[cynthia_h]

Some books I've found useful to recommend to new gardeners are:

How to Grow More Vegetables, John Jeavons 100% organic absolutely

Square Foot Gardening (2005 revision), Mel Bartholomew (but disregard his 6-inch recommendation; go for 8 to 10 inches) doesn't take an explicit stand for or against organic methods

Sunset Western Garden Book, for those living in the western states and provinces; see my recommendations throughout the forum on this book

These provide good hands-on help, introductions to hand tools, weed identification (Sunset), composting, etc.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[wwiding]

Hey thanks for the tips guys. I found the spot I'm going to start the garden, it's the only spot the dogs don't get into. It's not to far away from the house, I will have to carry the hose because it's out of reach, but I'll fix that with an old bathtub and some left over pvc/flexpipe. The soil here is pretty good, that might be because of the forty acres of trees, I'll probably dig up some soul around those to use. I'm going to use some old cement blocks I found to make a wall around the compost heap, and some old fencing to protect the garden. I'm thinking a ten by ten would be good for a beginner. Should I go less?

[Decado]

Instead of going 10x10 you might want to go 5x20 or even 4x25 and try an intensive growing method like in the book "How To Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons. This way you can eliminate rows and plant everything closer together and still be able to reach it all from the edge of the garden. It's not all that much more complicated, just more growing space. But then again if you have 40 acres you might not be so worried about space.

[wwiding]

Instead of going 10x10 you might want to go 5x20 or even 4x25 and try an intensive growing method like in the book "How To Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons. This way you can eliminate rows and plant everything closer together and still be able to reach it all from the edge of the garden. It's not all that much more complicated, just more growing space. But then again if you have 40 acres you might not be so worried about space.

Unfortunately most of the 40 acres is covered in trees, but I do like the idea of growing more in less space. Maybe I'll go small this year, to test the waters, and then see where I want to go with it next year. I'm researching natural pesticides, and wondering if growing garlic around the garden would help. I'm thinking about growing up next year, using home made trellis, so that I can get more in less. I wonder if the trub from my home made beer could be used to repel bugs? At any rate, I could use it in the compost.

[wwiding]

Now, short of lighting the area on fire, how do I get rid of about a quarter acre of weeds, so I can garden there?

I don't have equipment, or the money to rent any. My grandpa just told me to turn it all under, but I think it would be better in the long run to scrape it all out of there if at all possible.

[GrandMomMom]

Your Grandpa probably knows what the weeds are there, don't think that just because he does not use the word "organic" 20 times per paragraph that he doesn't know of which he speaks!

That said, I always go on about getting your vines such as Nightshade & blackberries out of there entirely, up in smoke or off the property as well.

Don't forget to look for the books they mention here in your local library, a tremendous asset for those without unlimited funds!

[GrandMomMom]

Oh, and by the way. You can't get rid of blackberries by just flaming the area, you have to dig them up first.

And you don't want to mess with your worm population. Or tick the local authorities. I am sure that there are other reasons, as well as the point that you said SHORT of flaming the area.

[cynthia_h]

If you're in a rural area, see whether anyone uses goats to clear brush. They EAT blackberry vines down to the ground--and a lot of other plants besides. They're used for highway shoulder clearance in areas of the West where power equipment sparks pose too high a fire danger or where the area is too small or too difficult for such equipment to maneuver.

Just be sure that the goats come with 1) a portable fence and 2) a dog. They don't restrict themselves to weeds, but also like roses (yummmm dessert) and other ornamentals!

Jeavons recommends clearing one 5x20 foot patch at a time. He has diagrams in the book (available at most libraries I've checked) showing how to do it.

The idea of the 4x___ and 5x___ is that you will never walk on this ground again after setting it up for planting. Thus, weeding will be very easy in the beds: you can reach across the bed from either side to pluck weeds out. In a 10x10 bed, you can't help but walk across the ground you've cleared at such effort, compacting it all over again.

Cynthia

[The Helpful Gardener]

Forget the compost heap (it is just a pile of stuff) and use those block to raise the edge around your growing area. This will allow you to import some soil from elsewhere (heck dig a hole if you have to).

Lay cardboard over the area inside your block (get it at the supermarket; I ask nice and get all I need) and wet it all down good. Put your imported soil on top of that (and compost, or whatever else have you...).

Get a bale or two of straw; scatter it about on top of that. Plant starts into the new bed. Do not walk on it or do anything other than pull the occasional weed and you will never need to do another thing to it other than add hay or straw once and a while. EASY!

[wwiding]

I'm not sure if buying soil is an option for me right now, but the soil here is really good if I can just get the weeds out. The good news is I just tried to rake a bunch of them and they came right out, with the roots. The snow is melting so the weeds come right up. If I can get rid of them, then I could probably cover the area I'm not going to grow on, to keep weeds from coming back up. As for goats, my neighbor has sheep, but I don't know if they eat weeds. Some times I can even get straw from my neighbor for free.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Who said buy? Dig right around your blocked out bed and throw that in. Like I said, dig a hole and use that.

Collect leaf duff in the woods and throw that on top of the cardboard; collect coffee grounds from a convenience store or coffee house and throw that on the leaves... Even those weeds you raked can be thrown into the mix... throw the soil from around the sides on top of that...


The problem with raking is you just sowed your next crop of weeds. All that scratchin and furrowing is just what a weed likes to get started (did you know crabgrass seed stays viable up to six feet down for up to a century?) So cover the WHOLE area with the hay or straw, and plant into it. It will come through just fine.

I'd put hands on some sheep poop too, and start composting; shredded paper is another good carbon besides leaves, or sawdust. This can be done cheap and well, just a little work to get started and less of that every year if you do it right... no raking...

HG

[Decado]

I wish I had some woods that would be awesome for soil and compost.

[farmerlon]

Lay cardboard over the area inside your block...

I second the use of cardboard.
Dig out the top layer (mat) of grass and weeds, then put a thick layer of cardboard and/or newspapers on top of the dirt that you have exposed.
If you're making a raised bed, let the cardboard extend out 2 to 3 feet on all sides of the bed.
Then, fill the bed with Soil.
Chances are that you will have eliminated all of the invasive weeds and grasses from that bed, because they can't "see the light of day" any more.
From then on, you should only have to do light cultivation in the bed, to rid it of weeds that pop up from seeds.

With lots of woods on your property, I would guess that you can find some spots in the understory that are virtually weed free, and have very rich soil due to years of leaf/branch fall. That might be a great place to source the dirt for your garden beds.
Definitely consider a soil test at your local County Extension office, to see if you need to add Lime (or something else).

[wwiding]

I love you guys. So heres what I did, I chopped/raked a couple inches deep(still working on it) and I'll get cardboard boxes from the local grocery store. The state came and bought some fill dirt recently, and I went and had a look where they dug, no weeds! The area is now a giant hill, which may be keeping the weeds from growing, but all that soil, and soil from around the trees will be enough. I also looked where the state came and cut around the power lines, there isn't a weed in site, but the soil is pretty fresh, maybe I'll use some of that too.

[wwiding]

My grandpa had the soil tested and said that it was a little acidic here.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Probably old woodland soil; the bacterial components will help balance that back. Add a few tablespoons of molasses to the first few waterings to help spike the bacterial side and it will balance itself out just fine...

HG

[Toil]

This year I'm going to try to manage weeds instead of eradication. Apparently we should not hate them, but put them to work instead.

[wwiding]

The local newspaper gives my grandma the extra rolls of paper that can't be used by the machines, for her parrots. I think I'm going to roll a couple layers down, and put my soil on top of that. There isn't any ink or any thing on it, just blank rolls of newspaper.

[The Helpful Gardener]

That's perfect WW! (and toil )

HG

[wwiding]

Well I've edged the entire area off, and shoveled a section of it six inches deep, I'll still have to pull weeds and rocks afterwards, but the soils good and loose. The best, most taxing work out I've ever had.

[gixxerific]

Lots of good advice here and it sounds like you are doing it in good fashion. You should have a fine garden.

Did you put the blocks around your garden? That would be great to keep adding material up though they are not realy needed, my garden is I suppose a raised be minus the sides.Just keep adding stuff like compost, straw manure and whatever you have organic, after time you will have an awesome very fertile garden.

I definitely agree with the trellis idea, I trellis everything I can to get more out my somewhat smaller space.

And if you are still wanting asparagus I wuold not wait because as said it is a perennial and will take a few years to become established.

Good luck can't wait to see your thriving garden this year.

Dono

[wwiding]

Well I didn't use the block because they were to heavy, they're actually from the foundation of a house that burned down on the property in the sixties. If I can borrow a friends truck then I'll use it to move the blocks. But I'm digging about a foot down, then I'll rake all the roots and rocks out. I'll lay my newspaper down, and put some of the soil I've already dug out back in, mixed with half a gallon of coffee grounds. Then I'll put soil from around the trees down. I'm halfway done with the digging now. I'm only going to grow a few things this year, and then put a lot in next year.

Funny story, my aunt and uncle live on the other side of the property, and my uncle came out to offer me some "advice". I politely explained to him that I've done enough research to know what I'm doing and don't want help from a man that doesn't eat vegetables. Any way he's angry now and he's going to try and grow corn in the sand along side his house to spite me, to make matters worse my cousin is helping me with my garden, and won't help his dad.

[gixxerific]

Now now, let's not start a family feud. Plus any advice is good whether or not the actual advice is good or not, just smile and nod.

Your probably doing good going small this year, just keep working on the rest of the plot that way by next year it will be ready.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Maybe help Unc out with his corn to mend the fence?

Corn in sand, he's gonna need it...

HG

[wwiding]

Can I mix moss with the soil? There's tons of it growing now that the snow is melting, and if it's nutrient value is high I could bread it up and mix it with the soil. I'm also going through the woods here to gather the dead logs, and crumbling them up to add to my soil mix. I love it, gardening for the cheap people(-:

[The Helpful Gardener]

Watch it with adding too much wood; you can lock up your nitrogen... make sure you add manure or greens to balance that wood out...

Moss is not a high nutrition food for anybody, but it won't hurt anything...

HG

[wwiding]

Whoops, meant to say I was going to break the moss up and add it to the soil, not bread it up. Maybe I'll try both I just had a thought, I know, it's hard to believe. Back in the 60's and 70's, a few barns, and a house burned down on the property. I bet if I move some of the metal that's been sitting there forever, the soil underneath would be really good, do to the moisture held under it, and the worms being there.(I was thinking of lasagna gardening when this idea struck me).

[The Helpful Gardener]

Fire can damage surface soils, but after some time, with the wood rotting and the left over charcoal, not to mention the leftovers from whatever was being kept in the barn (if it was cows, that's great; if it was tractors, not so good...)

HG

[wwiding]

Well hey no worries, no tractors were kept in the barn, it was all old fashioned horse equipment. Actually some of the equipment is still laying in the woods, no longer usable, but I'm going to pull it out any way, maybe I'll decorate the garden area with the stuff, and grow some flowers and vines on it.

[malkore]

The book I'm reading is the Vegetable Gardner's Bible. Its pretty straight forward and suggests organic gardening for the most part.

Narrow enough rows that you can reach in from either side (so 3-5 feet wide) and as long as you like.

So I have two almost 4' wide by 15.5' long beds just dug up this spring. Spring isn't the ideal time to 'put in' the garden space per lots of peoples posts here, but I figured my harvest may be weak this year but the roots will at least create some channels, add organics to the soil (we have a bit of clay here), and I'm putting compost on top and tilling it in.

Then I'm adding a bit of topsoil but not a truly 'raised' bed with any supports, at least not THIS year

Take on what you will enjoy working with. for me this above method was 'doable' to get started and I only have to deep dig the beds. I'll let the grass between them die and the soil compact...less to mow!

[wwiding]

Well, I've been fighting roots for the past hour or so, big ones, so I've decided that that is where I'm going to end my garden bed. Now I need to rake the rocks and loose roots out, put my newspaper down, and fill it back up. Next year maybe I'll rent some equipment and make the bed a lot longer, but for now it'll work. I'm going to focus on composting to make better soil, and growing my beans, squash, and zucchini. Maybe I'll grow some stuff to plow under in any empty rows.

[gixxerific]

I'm going to focus on composting to make better soil,

For now that is the best thing you could be doing, everything else will fall in to place.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Gixx is right; get your soil right and the rest is easy...

HG