User avatar
soil
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: N. California

I am familiar with what you are building, I was just making sure. your first post said I am saving the ashes, when making char there should be NO ashes. I was just being cautious and letting you know.

I have been doing terra preta soil for 5 years now. and the results are amazing, but I have seen people screw it up.

Homesteader
Full Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:47 pm
Location: Mid Michigan.

Soil, any pointers you can give me would be greatly appreciated. :D I`ve done quite a bit of research but hands on knowledge like your`s can`t be beat.

User avatar
soil
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: N. California

#1 thing with terra preta is patience. and a very healthy microbial community.

Homesteader
Full Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:47 pm
Location: Mid Michigan.

Well I have patience Soil and a pretty good start on the microbes from a lot of good healthy compost. BTW. the ash comes from our heating stoves in the house and my workshop. I save it and sift out the charcoal and was using it in my forge for blacksmithing but will now be putting it in the garden as well as building the retort. Are you using hard or softwood charcoal?

MysticGardener67
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Lexington KY

Cool! you can build a retort OLD SCHOOL! Wicked! And never have to buy a garden tool EVER! :lol: Good job!

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

Some of the retorts I have seen are a little [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEGmP6dhW5c&feature=related]TOO old school[/url]... this method lets the CO2 and methane from the heating fire escape; not good. Methane is 21 times more damaging as a greenhouse gas than CO2, and when this guy is talking about "thick black gasses" coming out of his barrel, he is talking about methane, long chain carbons, particulate matter, in short, some of the worst air pollutants out there. NOT green thinking here at all... "sequestering carbon from the air" he says. I think not! Not as much as he dumped up the chimney already, anyway... :roll: Here's [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZv8jKo_ixk&feature=related]another homemade version[/url]; note the "smoke" occasionally flaming; there's your methane escaping....

THIS is the best practice I have found to date; [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omvLK-rksRA&feature=related]The Adams retort[/url]. Note the lack of escaping gasses and smoke. Here's a [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEGmP6dhW5c&feature=related]demonstration of a like system[/url]for home use. THIS is how we do it, baby... the commercial places don't waste that methane either; back in the burn... these [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMUmby8PpU&feature=related]double barrel type burners[/url]can be nearly as efficient as Adams retorts...

A fine example of how homemade can do more damage than not doing it at all if you aren't completely up to speed... get the right idea to start, because there are plenty of bad ones out there, too... biochar is a good idea ONLY when it is well done...

HG

User avatar
stella1751
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1494
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:40 am
Location: Wyoming

Fascinating thread, people; thanks! I watched several videos yesterday, a good learning experience. One of the videos mentioned simply burning wood to the charcoal stage and then dousing it with water. I might want to experiment with this in one bed next year.

MysticGardener67
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Lexington KY

Burning the wood then dousing with water, is that you will also be dousing ashes with water.. This produces Lye (Sodium Hydroxide), a substance that is very alkeline in nature. This might cause PH issues when sing the char produced this way and it will absolutely effect the ph of the soil around the area of production.

User avatar
soil
Greener Thumb
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: N. California

Are you using hard or softwood charcoal?
I am actually making it from all around waste from our property/garden. from the garden its mostly chicken manure and the usual garden scraps and stuff from pruning. as well as trees that fell over and the small branches fed through a chipper then charred. id say the best stuff is the charred chicken manure. just let it dry out good before making it. comes out with no need to smash. then the char goes into the compost piles. then into the garden.

but to answer your question, the trees are oak.

top_dollar_bread
Senior Member
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:34 pm
Location: Inland Empire,CA

here's a link that may help
[url]https://myblog.michaelpbyron.com/2008/08/21/making-terra-preta-soil-ramonas-recipe-for-homemade-dirt.aspx?results=1#SurveyResultsChart[/url]
I have always wanted to make my own charcoal out of the endless supply of cow manure we have here...but I want to char it right and not let ghg escape and I'm not confident I can do that yet...
I'm going to try composting some cowboy charcoal, with some manure and saw dust, similar to the link I provided on top but I'm going to crush the charcoal in a pillow case, with my little corolla :lol: ..
I'm thinking it will turn out pretty well
[url]https://www.cowboycharcoal.com/[/url]

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

I want to char it right and not let ghg escape
Well, T$, that's pretty difficult to do. They are working on methods to cool the stack CO2 and feed it to an enclosed algae system (so O2 and a wee bit of moisture would be our exhaust; we can sure live with that :mrgreen: ). But when you burn anything, we are releasing the energy stored in that covalent carbon bonding and so some carbon is going in the atmosphere. You can't burn without carbon, unless you got a nuclear reactor in your pocket. Didn't think so...

That said, it's the methane in the wood that is the real trouble. Burn that off and we reduce tha GHG factor CONSIDERABLY. JUst burn the wood in the open, and you are not doing the planet any favors; driving an SUV looks Ed Begley-friendly when compared to open wood fires.

Enclosed, forced air retorts with a reburn feature (like the Adams or double walled retorts) is the way to go here...

Have used the Cowboy Charcoal as both charcoal and soil amendment and it's great for either. The only real reason I see to add it to compost is to inoculate it, but you could do that easier and quicker with compost tea.

Mashing it flat with a motor vehicle is counter-productive; part of the beauty of charcoal is the honeycombed porosity that provides homes for biologies, and it's much elongated sequestration of carbon in the soil versus just plain wood. Crushing to powder eliminates a great deal of both these benefits; might as well skip the planet-unfriendly burning and just compost at that point...

HG
Last edited by The Helpful Gardener on Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

erich
Newly Registered
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:00 am
Location: McGaheysville, VA.

Particle size is still an open question, IMHO the variety of size, 1/4 inch to dust, obtained by crushing with a vehicle in heavy tarps, is the simplest process.

Photos here;
My 09 field trials with the Rodale Institute & JMU ;
Alterna Biocarbon and Cowboy Charcoal Virginia field trials '09 https://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/node/1408

A full thread on the subject;
https://hypography.com/forums/terra-preta/11635-grinding-biochar-necessary-or-not-2.html

Root & fungi penetration
Frost heave & moisture drainage down worm holes
The bioturbation by the rest of the wee-beasties
all serve in breakdown & mixing, given time very thoroughly.


Almost everything I've ever posted about chars on the formal discussion list;
https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/?yguid=122501696

I have also posted at;
https://hypography.com/forums/terra-preta/
Much easier to navigate than the Yahoo forum. Just click on my name and the posts read like a sequential news report since 2006.

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

Erich, don't you think that the highly increased surface area from a powdered charcoal is likely to increase the CEC to such a level that it becomes a sink for nutritive elements? Or are you counting on the proper innoculation to counter that? And I still have to believe the powdering will move the carbon back into the atmospheric cycle faster than a big chunk would. But you make good points and I need to study some more...

Nice to see Dr. Mike Amaranthus' name in your study; a pioneer and certainly the leading source for mycorrhizal research. You run in good company Erich...

HG

MysticGardener67
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Lexington KY

ANd I ran across this grant offered by the Department of forestry titled:
Hazardous Fuels Woody Biomass Utilization Grants

In short, Department of forestry is trying to come up with a way to use the debris generated by the removal of forest fire fuels from the understory and forest floors.

Hmm this would be interesting boost for biochar and its processing.

Oh and If I rember my highschool chemistry clas, the condensate from burning woody materials in a low oxygen envroment genrates methanol and the remaining gasses back into the process.

here is the link:

https://www07.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=rTDQL6YbpGgNcsJp8Wq1cGCL20h2LPfTQvDls4QhZ7MJq1n2GHhG!-1299818899?oppId=49423&mode=VIEW

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

Look's like they are just giving away money to start-up a bio-char company...THAT's my tax dollars going to work in a positive fashion I can live with... :)

Both serious issues though; fuel elimination in older growth is done by fire in Nature, but as we interrupt the fire cycle for safety reasons, we also eliminate the recharge that all that carbon brings. But what if we cleaned up the falls, charred them and then returned them? The best of both worlds there, but the economic model is unclear...

My concern is the person that ends up doing this will simply sell the char, precluding the return of soil building materials back on site. That's WORSE for the forest in the long run than the fires would be; at least they have fertile soil to rebuild with in the fire scenario... and of course you have to use a responsible methodology to make the char too. Otherwise we are just stealing soil from the forest and putting it up a chimney; hardly the greenest idea... forests are hungry things wioth an appetite for soil and you can starve them to death pretty easily by taking away all their food...

You are right mystic, this is a great opportunity. I hope it gets handled well...

HG

User avatar
Farmer Dave
Full Member
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:15 pm
Location: California

I have been trying out the basic concept of Terra Petra which is adding charcoal to my soil. I end up having a lot of brush and fruit tree pruning to burn on our land so I just use the charcoal build up with the ashes. I am doing one section of my garden as I have a large garden so I can ascertain if it is working. Will I be adding the same product as if I used a no oxygen burn barrel?

I have very well drained soil that is a little gravely which is nice to work but leaches nutrients very quickly. As I under stand it the charcoal will help to hold and bind nutrients to the soil. I must say I am a bit to new to this experiment (2 years) to really know but I think it is working to some degree.

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

A better product actually, FD Same excellent char structure, less GHGs. Good for soil, good for the atmosphere...

Here's the thing FD you are adding a big cation sink with charcoal. If you do not have a serious biological culture in your soil, one that populates the char and starts weak acid responses to help etch the nutrient back ot of those strong covalent carbon bonds, you can lock up more nutrient than you release to your plants. I think you know where that goes.

Make sure you are using this in conjunction with good active compost, and plenty of it, at the start. Once the char gets populated it will start to self-sustain as you will get the poop looping from the protozoan predation of bacteria, as well as the weak acid releases. But if somebody is just dumping on the ammonia salt, it will likely just sit in their charcoal sponge and wait for biological releases that just aren't coming... :( Nature works best with Nature, and poorly with man made chems...

HG

Joyfirst
Green Thumb
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:45 pm
Location: Southern California

Do you guys grind up the char somehow before adding to the soil?

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

Most do; it increases the surface area and that means it hold more nutrition...

User avatar
rainbowgardener
Super Green Thumb
Posts: 25279
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: TN/GA 7b

Joyfirst wrote:Do you guys grind up the char somehow before adding to the soil?
Without a grinder, the low tech way would be put it in a bag and pound it with a hammer!

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7491
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: Colchester, CT

Or do like T$B and drive on it. I worry that powders it too much, but I have been assured it will not.

I notice we keep talking about the charcoal component, but the true terra preta also included a fired clay introduction. My assumption has been this was a water retention addition, but there would also be some CEC increase. Anybody trying this part of the puzzle?

HG

Toil
Greener Thumb
Posts: 803
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:18 pm
Location: drifting, unmoored

I think it should be mentioned that adding char to your soil does not make terra preta. The terra preta recipe is a long-lost secret unknown even to the indigenous tribes of the amazon. Either European pathogens wiped all that out, or the knowledge was no longer necessary long before that.

That said, heed HG's words.

I am playing around with it myself, by adding it to my worm bins. Another technique I've heard mentioned is to soak it in fertilizer. Something like fish hydrolysate.



Return to “Organic Gardening Forum”